Determinism

[D McCloud]

Yes, cause and effect is a part of life......but that doesn't eliminate the fact that we make choices of our own will everyday.

You're missing the point, we make choices that appear to free because of cause and effect. In reality, are choices are not as free as people would presume they are.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

You're missing the point, we make choices that appear to free because of cause and effect. In reality, are choices are not as free as people would presume they are.

Is it possible to provide scientific evidence for this?

 

[David Gould]

Is it possible to provide scientific evidence for this?

Yes. Behaviour - which is where an idividual's choices become apparent to the rest of - can be checked against things like genetic make-up and social background. There are direct correlations between, for example, your social status and the likelihood that you will commit crime. There are similar genetic correlations - twin adoption studies have demonstrated that if your genetic parent is a criminal you are more likely to commit crime (the fact that the twin was adopted means that the parents they were raised by were not criminals) .

Now, we have a couple of options here: either it is purely coincidence that social status and genetics are correlated with criminal behaviour or social status and genetics cause criminal behaviour.

As more evidence that they are caused, people use these sorts of things - not the genetics stuff yet, but the social stuff - to plan cities, prisons, schools et cetera. If they were not causal factors, this would be a futile activity.

 

[David Gould]

And there is plenty more evidence for this, by the way - that is just a minor example.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Yes. Behaviour - which is where an idividual's choices become apparent to the rest of - can be checked against things like genetic make-up and social background. There are direct correlations between, for example, your social status and the likelihood that you will commit crime. There are similar genetic correlations - twin adoption studies have demonstrated that if your genetic parent is a criminal you are more likely to commit crime (the fact that the twin was adopted means that the parents they were raised by were not criminals) .

Now, we have a couple of options here: either it is purely coincidence that social status and genetics are correlated with criminal behaviour or social status and genetics cause criminal behaviour.

As more evidence that they are caused, people use these sorts of things - not the genetics stuff yet, but the social stuff - to plan cities, prisons, schools et cetera. If they were not causal factors, this would be a futile activity.

Well, I don't think it's a coincidence, but I wouldn't say it causes it either. Rich people do crimes just the same as poor people in a bad neighborhood...however the amounts can be different.

However, eventhough those things play a factor, are the people still not willfully doing the actions of their own will? Is the situation or environment forcing them to do the actions?

 

[David Gould]

Well, I don't think it's a coincidence, but I wouldn't say it causes it either.

Then what exactly is happening here?

Rich people do crimes just the same as poor people in a bad neighborhood...however the amounts can be different.

Poor people in a bad neighbourhood are many times more likely to commit crime than rich people in a good neighbourhood. And the crimes are also usually more violent.

However, eventhough those things play a factor,

How, exactly, can something 'play a factor' without being causes? What can the interaction be other than a causal one?

are the people still not willfully doing the actions of their own will?

No.

Is the situation or environment forcing them to do the actions?

Yes.

However, ignore those last two points - concentrate on the main one, which is: what is going on here if it is not causation?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Since it's not causing it, it is influencing it. Things can influence or persuade you one direction, but are they causing or forcing? No.

 

[David Gould]

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1580349.htm

Just something I saw a moment ago. Depression causes certain behaviours. Depression is caused by genetics plus environment (stressful events). The person does not choose to have that genetics, nor that environment. Thus, they do not choose to have depression; thus, they do not choose to do the behaviours.

 

[David Gould]

What do you mean by 'influencing'? In other words, how does having a particular gene sequence influence you without having a causal interaction?

 

[David Gould]

Think of it this way: do your genes cause you to have the colour you do or influence your eye colour?

Why would genes operate differently with regards to their effect on behaviour?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

What do you mean by 'influencing'? In other words, how does having a particular gene sequence influence you without having a causal interaction?

I'm not talking about genes here, I'm mostly talking about environmental and human interaction things.

 

[D McCloud]

Is it possible to provide scientific evidence for this?

Here are a couple sites I found to be interesting

http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/chap14/chap14k.htm

http://www.scientificphilosophy.com/firstchapter.html

 

[David Gould]

I'm not talking about genes here, I'm mostly talking about environmental and human interaction things.

I am talking about both, as they are equally important - indeed genetics is in many instances more important.

 

[David Gould]

When you talk about 'influence' do you mean for example, that enviroment X influences you such that are more likely to do behaviour Y than those not subject to environment X?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

The problem w/ this is that there is no responsibility on the person's part. If someon kills someone...it's not their fault...they didn't choose that, it was the environment and such...or genetics......Why should people get arrested then...it's not their fault...they didn't choose that course of action?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

When you talk about 'influence' do you mean for example, that enviroment X influences you such that are more likely to do behaviour Y than those not subject to environment X?

Yes.

 

[David Gould]

The problem w/ this is that there is no responsibility on the person's part. If someon kills someone...it's not their fault...they didn't choose that, it was the environment and such...or genetics......Why should people get arrested then...it's not their fault...they didn't choose that course of action?

If a comet is heading towards earth, wouldn't we do our best to prevent it from hitting, even if that meant destroying it?

The problem is, you - and most other people - are still stuck with the idea that prison and the death penalty are about punishing people. The simple fact is that prison and the death penalty are mainly about keeping people who are prone to anti-social behaviour separated from society.

In other words, I would never punish anyone. However, that does not mean that I would never lock anyone up.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

If a comet is heading towards earth, wouldn't we do our best to prevent it from hitting, even if that meant destroying it?

The problem is, you - and most other people - are still stuck with the idea that prison and the death penalty are about punishing people. The simple fact is that prison and the death penalty are mainly about keeping people who are prone to anti-social behaviour separated from society.

In other words, I would never punish anyone. However, that does not mean that I would never lock anyone up.

What about the judicial system and courts and judges. They judge and punish and such. What are fines for then? What about stuff like that that doesn't involve just being locked up? Or what about just staying in jail for a few months then released. They are going back out w/ that "anti-social" behavior...

 

[David Gould]

Yes.

Okay:

Enviroment X influences you such that are more likely to do behaviour Y than those not subject to environment X.

How about we put a number of the 'more likely'. Let us say that you are 55 per cent likely to do X, when people not subject to environment X are 50 per cent likely to do X.

Doesn't this mean that environment X causes the 50 per cent to become 55 per cent?

 

[David Gould]

What about the judicial system and courts and judges. They judge and punish and such.

As I said, most people are still stuck with the idea of punishment.

What are fines for then? What about stuff like that that doesn't involve just being locked up?

They are either deterrents or a means of making sure that the society recoups a certain amount of money in recompense for certain less harmful kinds of anti-social behaviour.

Or what about just staying in jail for a few months then released. They are going back out w/ that "anti-social" behavior...

Again, our justice system is flawed because we have this notion of punishment. If you look at the recidivism rates, you will see that a few months in jail either deters a person from behaving the same way twice or it means that they are massively more likely to do it again - or even worse things.

If we got away from the notion of punishment, we could address this problem.