Determinism

[Lilly of the Valley]

Our environment doesn't control every descion we make, it's only part of determinism. People make descions based on the positive and negative outcomes it has on them and the ones they love.

Our education, economic status, laws, the emphasis we place on gender and race are all things determined within a society.

Are the people forced in what they choose?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I am unclear what you mean by 'just' in this context. We are incredibly amazing things, capable of love and hate and a myriad of other emotions, with astonishing imaginative capacity which enables us to do things that nothing else that we know of can do. And, yes, we are robots.

The environment does not have a 'will'.


The environment makes no decisions. And, no, it was not random. The operations of the laws of physics/chemistry/biology are not random - when you drop a ball in a gravity well, it falls towards the centre of the gravity well, for instance. It does not move randomly.

I mean nothing more than robots by using the word 'just'. If we are robots...then we have no control of what we love, dislike, hate, etc...?

But it determines, or is one of the factors, that you claim determines what we do...correct?

 

[David Gould]

I mean nothing more than robots by using the word 'just'.

You are correct: we are nothing more than incredible and amazing things.

If we are robots...then we have no control of what we love, dislike, hate, etc...?

Do you control what you love, dislike and hate? Or do you fall in love, see something and just dislike it, or respond with hate to an activity such as genocide?

Did you choose to like chocolate icecream and not like asparagus?

But it determines, or is one of the factors, that you claim determines what we do...correct?

Of course. I am simply trying not to let words such as 'will' and 'choose' lead us into more confusion.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

You are correct: we are nothing more than incredible and amazing things.



Do you control what you love, dislike and hate? Or do you fall in love, see something and just dislike it, or respond with hate to an activity such as genocide?

Did you choose to like chocolate icecream and not like asparagus?



Of course. I am simply trying not to let words such as 'will' and 'choose' lead us into more confusion.

So robots are incredible and amazing? Things that can choose for themselves and have no free will are that?

Well, I don't think you really control liking and such...but you can control love. There is romantic and then there is just basic love. You may not control attraction or romantic love, but you can decide to love somone (non romantic) despite how you may want to treat them or whatnot.

 

[David Gould]

So robots are incredible and amazing?

We are incredible and amazing. We are also robots.

Things that can choose for themselves and have no free will are that?

You don't think that humans are incredible and amazing?

Well, I don't think you really control liking and such...but you can control love. There is romantic and then there is just basic love. You may not control attraction or romantic love, but you can decide to love somone (non romantic) despite how you may want to treat them or whatnot.

It seems to me that you are backpeddaling here. 'Well, you can't choose to love, but you can choose some kinds of love'

I do not see the distinction.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

We are incredible and amazing. We are also robots.



You don't think that humans are incredible and amazing?



It seems to me that you are backpeddaling here. 'Well, you can't choose to love, but you can choose some kinds of love'

I do not see the distinction.

No. I don't agree w/ what you've been saying. If we are robots as you claim...then how are we incredible and amazing. Don't get me wrong, I think people are that. However, robots and that don't seem to click.

Also, if we are that, then is it not really the environment and the other factors that supposedly determine our actions that are truly that? We are merely doing what they 'induce' you can say.

There is more than one type of love.

 

[David Gould]

No. I don't agree w/ what you've been saying. If we are robots as you claim...then how are we incredible and amazing. Don't get me wrong, I think people are that. However, robots and that don't seem to click.

That is simply an irrational prejudice you have against the term 'robot'.

Ignore humans for the moment: don't you think that it is possible that humans could one day build robots that are incredible and amazing?

Also, if we are that, then is it not really the environment and the other factors that supposedly determine our actions that are truly that? We are merely doing what they 'induce' you can say.

The environment is incredible and amazing. We are an incredible and amazing part of that incredible and amazing environment.

There is more than one type of love.

Can you give me an example of a type of love that you think is chosen? The earlier post did not make it clear to me.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

That is simply an irrational prejudice you have against the term 'robot'.

Ignore humans for the moment: don't you think that it is possible that humans could one day build robots that are incredible and amazing?



The environment is incredible and amazing. We are an incredible and amazing part of that incredible and amazing environment.



Can you give me an example of a type of love that you think is chosen? The earlier post did not make it clear to me.

Yes, but to make human positives equal to that of a robot just doesn't fit, at least to me.

Are we incredible and amazing because of the environment or the other factors that 'determine' things?

Okay, like sacrificial love or love given even w/ undeserved or wanted. Ex: Someone gossips about you. You can either hate them, or decide to be sincerely kind and love them anyway. You choose that.

 

[D McCloud]

Are the people forced in what they choose?

Well People are influenced by some random, and some intentional events to choose certain things.

 

[David Gould]

Yes, but to make human positives equal to that of a robot just doesn't fit, at least to me.

Again, this is because of irrational feelings against the word 'robot'.

Are we incredible and amazing because of the environment or the other factors that 'determine' things?

There are only two things that determine what we do - the environment through which we move and our genetics.

This combination has made us all what we are.

Okay, like sacrificial love or love given even w/ undeserved or wanted. Ex: Someone gossips about you. You can either hate them, or decide to be sincerely kind and love them anyway. You choose that.

To me, these are actions, not feelings. In other words, sacrificing yourself for another is an action, and that action is caused by your feelings. You do not choose your feelings.

Similarly, deciding to be kind is an action, not a feeling. This action is caused by your feelings, which you again do not choose.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Well People are influenced by some random, and some intentional events to choose certain things.

Influenced or forced? If it is merely influence, then they are indeed choosing on their own and thus freely.

 

[D McCloud]

Influenced or forced? If it is merely influence, then they are indeed choosing on their own and thus freely.

I'm not going to say your whole life is being dictated by one particular thing because it usually doesn't work like that.

What happens is that your influenced by many things, and depending on how those things affect you determines your couse of action. However, the short answer to your question is yes, together as a whole these things force.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I'm not going to say your whole life is being dictated by one particular thing because it usually doesn't work like that.

What happens is that your influenced by many things, and depending on how those things affect you determines your couse of action. However, the short answer to your question is yes, together as a whole these things force.

So you don't decide on a specific course of action of your own will?

 

[David Gould]

What you refer to as 'will' is simply another link in the causal chain.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

What you refer to as 'will' is simply another link in the causal chain.

What?

 

[David Gould]

What?

The combination of my environment and my genetics causes my will to cause me to tap some keys which causes this message to appear on Christian Forums.

My will is caused, but it is also a cause. Hence, it is a link in the (a) causal chain.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

The combination of my environment and my genetics causes my will to cause me to tap some keys which causes this message to appear on Christian Forums.

My will is caused, but it is also a cause. Hence, it is a link in the (a) causal chain.

So we not only not have free will but also no 'will' at all in reallity?

 

[David Gould]

So we not only not have free will but also no 'will' at all in reallity?

I do not think that 'we' exist, so no. But that is another argument.

In the causal chain that I outlined, will exists as much as the environment exists - it is another link in the causal chain and, as such, exists.

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

I do not think that 'we' exist, so no. But that is another argument.

In the causal chain that I outlined, will exists as much as the environment exists - it is another link in the causal chain and, as such, exists.

Okay...I think I'll end debate w/ you since you are on another level all together.

 

[David Gould]

Okay...I think I'll end debate w/ you since you are on another level all together.

And what a level it is! I can see your house from here ...