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Determining Reality

food4thought

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"I it so hard for you to accept that the human capacity for understanding timelessness is limited by our timebound mentality?"
It is. A state of timelessness depends on time being a property of matter and not merely a concept doesn't it? We've agreed that the jury is out on that haven't we?

Please provide empirical evidence for your view that time is not a physical property or answer the question as presented. Or just ignore this and let this part of the discussion die.

I don't equate "eternal" with "timeless" as I see no reason why something eternal cannot exist in time. Do you have any evidence about what a "growing number of physicists believe" regarding a singularity? I'm afraid my subscription to higher physics weekly has run out.

I think I saw something about it on the Universe, I'm sure you can find something online about it. This is a Wikipedia article on Loop Quantum Gravity Theory, which if proved would replace the Big Bang singularity with a Big Bounce.

Loop quantum gravity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Ultimately neither argument has empirical proof."
Are you saying the big bang has no empirical proof? Or that the singularity preceding it has no empirical proof...or both?

For now I am only saying that there is no empirical proof for an infinite regression of time for the pre-Big Bang singularity. My understanding is that the whole concept of the Big Bang singularity is currently being debated.

BTW, still waiting for your view on how to determine reality. Maybe you answered somewhere along the way in your discussion with someone else, but all I have seen is a brief recent reference to "logic and reason". A bit more of a detailed explanation would be appreciated.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I did go to the link and there is only a statement without any documentation of what you claim. However, I did read from other sources that Tacitus was referring to things like the "Transfiguration" as superstition. He never denied the existence of the historical Christ, as a matter of fact, he supports it.

2 Timothy 3:16, and 2 Peter 1:21 attest to the fact that the Scriptures are God-breathed.

The New Testament Scriptures are equally inspired with the Old Testament Scriptures (2 Pet. 3:16). Peter places the letters of Paul on par with the “rest of the Scriptures.”





The approach was anything but factual. It was born of the enlightenment and neo-orthodoxy. Both of which can not interpret or judge the Bible since, again, both divorce themselves from the Holy Spirit's work.

This is the problem with the criticisms of the atheist and the "Jesus seminar":
Because the Bible is God-breathed and therefore in an entirely different dimension from other literature, it is necessary that man receives God-given help in understanding the Bible (1 Cor. 2:11). Additionally, the unregenerate man’s sin-darkened mind cannot apprehend spiritual truths (1 Cor. 2:14). The work of illumination then is necessary to enable man to comprehend the Word of God (cf. Luke 24:44-45). Illumination can thus be defined as “the ministry of the Holy Spirit whereby He enlightens those who are in a right relationship with Him to comprehend the written Word of God.”

The Moody Handbook of Theology.


Tacitus never stated Jesus Christ was an actual person, he stated merely that Christians believed in him. I can quote the text if you like. Where is this "evidence" that Tacitus wasn't referring to Christian beliefs as "superstition"? Am I supposed to just take your word on this?
I asked you for evidence that Luke believed his words were inspired by God, since you couldn't find this, you quoted Timothy. Did Timothy interview every author in the NT? Of course not, so his opinion remains just that, opinion.
To be sure, you're claiming the bible is true because it is the "inspired word of god" and you believe it is the inspired word of god...because it says so in the bible? Is that your belief?

As for the Jesus Seminar...
" The approach was anything but factual."
Actually, they were only concerned with the factual, I believe this is your problem. You don't seem to understand the difference between fact and belief.

" It was born of the enlightenment and neo-orthodoxy."
In truth, it was born of a scholarly attempt to determine truth. You're right in saying that THe Holy spirit wasn't considered a factor, again, this is because they were concerned with truth.

" This is the problem with the criticisms of the atheist and the "Jesus seminar""
I'm not aware of any atheists at the Jesus Seminar, this was largely a group of Christians of several different denominations. Believers of various educational backgrounds and disciplines that attempted to discern truth through consensus about the facts and evidence.
Try to consider that before you attempt to dispute their findings.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Actually the first link that you posted to "refute" Andrew Stark says the exact opposite of that. Let me quote: "Catholic monasteries were, at times, a conduit of classical wisdom, as monks laboriously copied and saved the few surviving ancient manuscripts." You have to admit that it's pretty pathetic when you link to an article and claim it says something, and it turns out to say the exact opposite of what you claim.

Even after seeing all of the nonsense that you've posted in this thread, it's still pretty amazing to see that you think you can get away with a lie like this. Anyone who's not completely and totally ignorant of the Middle Ages knows perfectly well that pagan writings, both Greek and Latin and others, were extremely popular and influential at the time. For example, Virgil was the most influential and widely-read author in medieval times outside of the Bible. Entire books have been written examing Virgil's influence during that period. Aristotle's works were translated into every European language during the Middle Ages and he was so influential that people referred to him simply as "the philosopher". (In fact more intelligent atheists than you generally complain that Aristotle had too much influence on medieval Christians.) Similarly, it would not be difficult to show that many other Pagan authors such as Plato, Cicero, and Seneca were read during the Middle Ages. Moreover, it was precisely the medieval church that was responsible for preserving, copying, and translating ancient Greek and Latin texts. Thomas Cahill's book How the Irish Saved Civilization documents how Irish monks in the early Middle Ages were responsible for saving many texts and eventually bringing them back to the European mainstream.

So in short, your claim that the medieval church outlawed Greek writings because they were Pagan is an out-and-out lie. Why do you keep telling these lies? What makes you dislike the truth so much?


Really? Did I ever say that?


You have not offered any proof that "the current group" is anything other than a joke.


If you read post #277, you'll see that I've already explained why it's dishonest for you to cite Cosmoas Indicopleustes and Lactantius as validating your claim about Columbus. I see no need to repeat myself. We're you hoping that I'd forget what I've already written? If not, then what was the point of this paragraph?


How is that a contradiction?


You haven't yet given me a single reference which in any way suggests that any person in Columbus' time believed that the earth was flat.


Except that your point is entirely backwards. In Columbus' time both authority figures and everyone else believed that the earth was round. Columbus only sailed westward across the Atlantic because he believed those authorities. If he had insisted on being a juvenile punk constantly thumping his chest about his contempt for "argument from authority" then he wouldn't have done so. The same can besaid of really anyone who advanced knowledge in any field throughout human history.

I'll be willing to admit I was wrong if you can do one thing, simply show that the common man knew the Earth was round and not merely scholars and academics. The link you provided simply wants to give the common man "the benefit of the doubt" . I'm afraid I'm not willing to do this, especially considering all the evidence I've given. Yes, some were works of fiction, but often this is the only way of ascertaining what the common man believed in his day. Many authors who wrote fiction (Mark Twain, Shakespeare) gave profound insights into the minds of the common man in their day. Any attempt to dismiss fiction (Cyrano for example) for the sole reason that its fiction is poor judgement at best.

I reread post 277 and don't see why citing Cosmas is dishonest. He may not have influenced intellectuals of his age, but as he was a traveling merchant (if I remember correctly) there is good reason to believe he held similar views as the common man of his age.

Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anywhere in the Hannam where he quoted the writings of commoners to prove your point. It's a bit silly to think that in those days, everyone accepted the scholarly scientific view of the world, especially when it contradicted the biblical view of the world (according to Hannam). If that were the case, you wouldn't expect to find such widespread ignorance of evolution today. I guess Hannam just gives the people of the 1400s more credit.
 
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golgotha61

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Tacitus never stated Jesus Christ was an actual person, he stated merely that Christians believed in him. I can quote the text if you like. Where is this "evidence" that Tacitus wasn't referring to Christian beliefs as "superstition"? Am I supposed to just take your word on this?

Logic will let you understand that to believe in a person called Christ requires a person called Christ to have existed. If you would read my reply more carefully, you would see that I agree that Tacitus refers to some of the Christian beliefs as superstition. That is not the issue, the issue is the historicity of Christ as verified by Tacitus' references to His followers. It does not matter that Tacitus agreed or disagreed with the Christian doctrine; no one is claiming Tacitus was a Christian.


I asked you for evidence that Luke believed his words were inspired by God, since you couldn't find this, you quoted Timothy.

No you didn't, this is your quote: "Your assertion that the authors of the bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit is unfounded and merely your opinion, not fact. Furthermore, I'm not aware of any part of the gospels that claims to be inspired by the Holy spurt and if you have a passage that says as much, I'd love to see it."



Did Timothy interview every author in the NT?

Irrelevant to the question you asked. You asked for Biblical reference to its inspiration and I gave it. The evidence goes further, such as Christ's treatment of the Scriptures.

Of course not, so his opinion remains just that, opinion.
To be sure, you're claiming the bible is true because it is the "inspired word of god" and you believe it is the inspired word of god...because it says so in the bible? Is that your belief?

The direct witness concerning inspiration has been given. The witness of Timothy and Peter far surpass the idea that it is opinion to be characterized as no better than yours or mine. Peter walked with Christ and Timothy's credentials are for all to see in the epistles. The witness is given by expert witnesses as to the inspiration of the New Testament. You can believe what you like. I am not required to convince you, the Holy Spirit is in charge of that. My job is to give you truthful information and witness, and I have done that.


As for the Jesus Seminar...
" The approach was anything but factual."
Actually, they were only concerned with the factual, I believe this is your problem. You don't seem to understand the difference between fact and belief.

" It was born of the enlightenment and neo-orthodoxy."
In truth, it was born of a scholarly attempt to determine truth. You're right in saying that THe Holy spirit wasn't considered a factor, again, this is because they were concerned with truth.

" This is the problem with the criticisms of the atheist and the "Jesus seminar""
I'm not aware of any atheists at the Jesus Seminar, this was largely a group of Christians of several different denominations. Believers of various educational backgrounds and disciplines that attempted to discern truth through consensus about the facts and evidence.
Try to consider that before you attempt to dispute their findings.

First of all, if the Holy Spirit is not involve, then what ever these so called men and women of God say, is garbage.

Secondly, I never said the Jesus Seminar was comprised of atheists or that any of them were atheists. Actually, it was led by the spirit of antichrist. To be called and atheist as opposed to antichrist would be a step up.

I reiterate, if the Word of God is being criticized with the absence of the Holy Spirit's leading, it is garbage.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Logic will let you understand that to believe in a person called Christ requires a person called Christ to have existed. If you would read my reply more carefully, you would see that I agree that Tacitus refers to some of the Christian beliefs as superstition. That is not the issue, the issue is the historicity of Christ as verified by Tacitus' references to His followers. It does not matter that Tacitus agreed or disagreed with the Christian doctrine; no one is claiming Tacitus was a Christian.




No you didn't, this is your quote: "Your assertion that the authors of the bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit is unfounded and merely your opinion, not fact. Furthermore, I'm not aware of any part of the gospels that claims to be inspired by the Holy spurt and if you have a passage that says as much, I'd love to see it."





Irrelevant to the question you asked. You asked for Biblical reference to its inspiration and I gave it. The evidence goes further, such as Christ's treatment of the Scriptures.



The direct witness concerning inspiration has been given. The witness of Timothy and Peter far surpass the idea that it is opinion to be characterized as no better than yours or mine. Peter walked with Christ and Timothy's credentials are for all to see in the epistles. The witness is given by expert witnesses as to the inspiration of the New Testament. You can believe what you like. I am not required to convince you, the Holy Spirit is in charge of that. My job is to give you truthful information and witness, and I have done that.


As for the Jesus Seminar...
" The approach was anything but factual."
Actually, they were only concerned with the factual, I believe this is your problem. You don't seem to understand the difference between fact and belief.



First of all, if the Holy Spirit is not involve, then what ever these so called men and women of God say, is garbage.

Secondly, I never said the Jesus Seminar was comprised of atheists or that any of them were atheists. Actually, it was led by the spirit of antichrist. To be called and atheist as opposed to antichrist would be a step up.

I reiterate, if the Word of God is being criticized with the absence of the Holy Spirit's leading, it is garbage.

"Logic will let you understand that to believe in a person called Christ requires a person called Christ to have existed."

THis really explains your poor understanding of logic. What rule of logic requires this? Children believe in Santa, yet he isn't real. The same goes for the numerous fictional characters of any number of myths and religions...do you honestly believe they were all real simply because someone believed so? EVen Tacitus himself believed Hercules was a real person.

I should've been more clear, when I referred to "the gospels" I meant the writings of Luke, since that was what we were talking about.

Timothy's "expert witness" is a joke. He didn't witness Luke write his gospel, nor do I know of any author which he did examine. He never actually witnessed anything. Therefore, his opinion is just an opinion. Sorry.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know that the Holy Spirit wasn't guiding the Jesus Seminar? For all you know, and can prove, the Holy spirit is what brought the Jesus Seminar together in the first place.
 
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golgotha61

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"Logic will let you understand that to believe in a person called Christ requires a person called Christ to have existed."

THis really explains your poor understanding of logic. What rule of logic requires this? Children believe in Santa, yet he isn't real. The same goes for the numerous fictional characters of any number of myths and religions...do you honestly believe they were all real simply because someone believed so? EVen Tacitus himself believed Hercules was a real person.

I suggest you not go into "logic" since you still have no understanding that logic is God created. Also, you know better than to use "strawman" arguments. We have done the Tacitus Hercules business, move on.

I should've been more clear, when I referred to "the gospels" I meant the writings of Luke, since that was what we were talking about.

No that is not what we were talking about, I said the inspiration of the Bible. Also, you may consider the words of Christ when He said that the Holy Spirit would bring to remembrance Christs teachings (John 14:26). This is accomplished after the Holy Spirit is sent upon Christ's return to heaven.

Timothy's "expert witness" is a joke. He didn't witness Luke write his gospel, nor do I know of any author which he did examine. He never actually witnessed anything. Therefore, his opinion is just an opinion. Sorry.

He was taught by Paul and the Holy Spirit which makes for an expert witness.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know that the Holy Spirit wasn't guiding the Jesus Seminar? For all you know, and can prove, the Holy spirit is what brought the Jesus Seminar together in the first place.

Simple, the Jesus seminar is contradictory to the Bible, which is the verbal plenary, infallible, inspired, truthful, and error free revelation of God, in its original autographs. According the the God ordained law of logic (the law of non-contradiction), the findings of the Jesus seminar are erroneous.
 
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Ana the Ist

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"Logic will let you understand that to believe in a person called Christ requires a person called Christ to have existed."



I suggest you not go into "logic" since you still have no understanding that logic is God created. Also, you know better than to use "strawman" arguments. We have done the Tacitus Hercules business, move on.



No that is not what we were talking about, I said the inspiration of the Bible. Also, you may consider the words of Christ when He said that the Holy Spirit would bring to remembrance Christs teachings (John 14:26). This is accomplished after the Holy Spirit is sent upon Christ's return to heaven.



He was taught by Paul and the Holy Spirit which makes for an expert witness.



Simple, the Jesus seminar is contradictory to the Bible, which is the verbal plenary, infallible, inspired, truthful, and error free revelation of God, in its original autographs. According the the God ordained law of logic (the law of non-contradiction), the findings of the Jesus seminar are erroneous.


FIrst of all, the laws of logic weren't created by god, I already disproved that. You don't have to accept it but its an old argument that was disproven long ago. Also, you said this,
" Logic will let you understand that to believe in a person called Christ requires a person called Christ to have existed. "
THat isn't an actual law of logic, its just something you made up. Now, if you think that belief in a person proves they exist, then you must believe Santa exists because so many little children believe he exists. It's not a strawman to use your "logic" to draw a conclusion. If it sounds wrong, well just consider whose "logic" I'm using.

How exactly do you know that Timothy was taught by the Holy Spirit? How do you know he isn't just making that up?

HOw do you know that the Holy Spirit isn't responsible for the Jesus Seminar? How do you know that the bible isn't wrong when it comes to the teachings of Jesus and the Holy Spirit used the Seminar to bring these mistakes to light?
 
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golgotha61

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FIrst of all, the laws of logic weren't created by god, I already disproved that. You don't have to accept it but its an old argument that was disproven long ago.

You didn't disprove anything, you mearly denied God created logic and holds the universe in place with His logic.

Also, you said this,
" Logic will let you understand that to believe in a person called Christ requires a person called Christ to have existed. "
THat isn't an actual law of logic, its just something you made up. Now, if you think that belief in a person proves they exist, then you must believe Santa exists because so many little children believe he exists. It's not a strawman to use your "logic" to draw a conclusion. If it sounds wrong, well just consider whose "logic" I'm using.

What I said was in order for Tacitus to mention Christ or Christian or any name based on the name of Christ, there must have a person by that name that existed and this is the law of non-contradiction which is one of the laws of logic.

Your Santa analogy is a strawman by the definition used in Critical Thinking and Thoughtful Writing.

How exactly do you know that Timothy was taught by the Holy Spirit? How do you know he isn't just making that up?

I gave you the verse to demonstrate this. When Christ said He would send the Holy Spirit to bring to remembrance the things He had taught.

HOw do you know that the Holy Spirit isn't responsible for the Jesus Seminar?

I already did this too. The judgement is made according to the law of non-contradiction. The Jesus seminar contradicts the Bible.

How do you know that the bible isn't wrong when it comes to the teachings of Jesus and the Holy Spirit used the Seminar to bring these mistakes to light?

Because the Bible is inspired by God and without error. This is all rehash. I am done here. May God open your eyes to the truth of Christ's sacrifice and love for you.
 
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Habakk

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Hello, this may seem like an overly simple question, but I would like to know how Christians determine reality? How do you decide fact from fiction? How do you know truth from opinion or belief? Is the bible your main source for this kind of determination? Something else?

I know this may seem a very vague question, but I am interested. Although the question is addressed to Christians, any faith or religion may answer. Thank you.

Reality: A thing that is actually experienced or seen.

Science uses a process called the scientific method based upon gaining objective empirical evidence from the natural world. However what a lot of people fail to realise, is the whole issue is held together by a reasoning process. It is the complete process that results in correctly discerning the evidence leading to reality.

The Bible says “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Faith has substance and is evidence. So we can conclude that reason is also involved. A definition of reason is: Think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic: "humans do not reason entirely from facts."

Neither in science nor in faith is the process of reason entirely from facts.
A large part of what the famous scientists of history endeavoured to accomplish was largely attributed to a lot of reason. Observation and realisation of empirical data was the objective advancement of that same reason.

Faith likewise requires spiritual reason. It starts from God or the written word and progresses to conclusion by the same reasoned thought of a man or woman in tune with God or his written word and guided by the Holy Spirit, leading us to reality.
 
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Habakk

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Reality is not what you think it is. Study, ponder. Learn about quantum physics.

I have. However some books written on popular science portray quantum mechanics as very strange science. This is not so, It is the actual nature of matter that is strange to understand. Quantum Mechanics is an honest, scientific and mathematical model used to try and understand that strangeness. Modern technologies like electronics and chemistry have a basis in quantum Theory.

Ask any ten physicists to define mass and you should get ten identical answers. Ask the same ten physicists to define matter and you will see the difficulty. That is one reason for this quantum mechanical approach. Concepts like quantum tunnelling are fundamental to semiconductor electronics. Likewise the Schrödinger Equation in chemistry and the list goes on and on. There are some problems with reconciling quantum theory to general relativity and such. Supersymmetry string theory is still a mathmatical model without conclusive empirical verification but then we do not have the bigger picture as yet.

ToE (Theory of Everything) or the unifying theorem is still just an idea at the moment; there is a long way to go yet. In particle physics the Higgs boson particle has not yet been found and indeed some scientists are speculating other possible outcomes to explain the gravitational force and the substance of mass. Science has progressed a lot but the study of matter is still somewhat elusive.

But all this is not all so strange. It only goes to indicates that our understanding of the natural world by scientific enquiry is only just beginning, despite our great advancements in science.

And the concept of quantum mechanics certainly does not negate the argument previously posted by myself (post 289) for the reasoning of reality. We experience the reality of the natural world by reason. We experience God by faith that involves spiritual understanding and reason. No arguments of quantum mechanics can distract or negate this reason.

Also note that science is a tool for understanding the natural world and it has limitations. Science can neither prove or disprove a supernatural God for the simple reason it uses the scientific method.

The real nature of the scientific method is that it doesn’t prove or disprove anything even in the natural world, it only attempts to explain and one of the procedures is consensus. It is because the scientific method is naturalistic that it will and only can default to naturalistic reason, because of the nature of empirical observation of the natural world. Also assumptions within the scientific method must always default to naturalistic assumptions for the very same reason. That is a limitation that we must realise when attempting to apply it outside its remit.

Note: apologies for my long post. It is not an attempt to enter into debate it is an honest attempt to answer the OP question. My first post attempted give a first idea of how faith is a reasonable justified process. This is just some of the ground work to show that reasoning is not contradictory to what we currently perceive about reality.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Reality: A thing that is actually experienced or seen.

Science uses a process called the scientific method based upon gaining objective empirical evidence from the natural world. However what a lot of people fail to realise, is the whole issue is held together by a reasoning process. It is the complete process that results in correctly discerning the evidence leading to reality.

The Bible says “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Faith has substance and is evidence. So we can conclude that reason is also involved. A definition of reason is: Think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic: "humans do not reason entirely from facts."

Neither in science nor in faith is the process of reason entirely from facts.
A large part of what the famous scientists of history endeavoured to accomplish was largely attributed to a lot of reason. Observation and realisation of empirical data was the objective advancement of that same reason.

Faith likewise requires spiritual reason. It starts from God or the written word and progresses to conclusion by the same reasoned thought of a man or woman in tune with God or his written word and guided by the Holy Spirit, leading us to reality.

I can't agree with that definition of faith. THere is good reason why it only appears in the KJV of the bible and not the others. The definition of "evidence" in King James's day is not the same as ours. There is an inherent problem when using deductive reasoning and starting with an abject propositions, such as "god" or "Christianity".

To quote a link I've posted here a couple times already,
"But the method of reason, properly understood, is emphatically not the employment of formal logic to explicate the consequences entailed by arbitrary premises. Reasoning consists, first and foremost, in observation and induction therefrom. Deductive logic provides knowledge only when applied to premises rooted ultimately in observational fact."
 
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Ana the Ist

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:pray:
You didn't disprove anything, you mearly denied God created logic and holds the universe in place with His logic.



What I said was in order for Tacitus to mention Christ or Christian or any name based on the name of Christ, there must have a person by that name that existed and this is the law of non-contradiction which is one of the laws of logic.

Your Santa analogy is a strawman by the definition used in Critical Thinking and Thoughtful Writing.



I gave you the verse to demonstrate this. When Christ said He would send the Holy Spirit to bring to remembrance the things He had taught.



I already did this too. The judgement is made according to the law of non-contradiction. The Jesus seminar contradicts the Bible.



Because the Bible is inspired by God and without error. This is all rehash. I am done here. May God open your eyes to the truth of Christ's sacrifice and love for you.

Well you may be done here but you're still wrong. Unfortunately, it seems you don't know the actual law of non contradiction. Maybe this will help.

Simply put the law of noncontradiction states that contradictory statements cannot both at the same time be true.
THerefore, Tacitus referring to the beliefs of christians in a person called Christ and the person called Christ not actually existing aren't contradictory. People can and do believe in mythological people (that's why I used the Santa example, which went way over your head), so the mere mention of Christ as a belief doesnt prove he exists.

I did show you how some concepts created by the minds of men can describe reality and are exactly the same regardless of which person we ask to describe such concepts. THe laws of logic are the same as these concepts and you've failed to show any evidence that god created them. You don't have to accept (or understand) what I've shown you, but I did show you the truth.

Now that you properly understand the law of noncontradiction, maybe you understand why the Jesus seminar is valid. THen again, maybe you don't.
 
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golgotha61

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Well you may be done here but you're still wrong. Unfortunately, it seems you don't know the actual law of non contradiction. Maybe this will help.

Simply put the law of noncontradiction states that contradictory statements cannot both at the same time be true.
THerefore, Tacitus referring to the beliefs of christians in a person called Christ and the person called Christ not actually existing aren't contradictory. People can and do believe in mythological people (that's why I used the Santa example, which went way over your head), so the mere mention of Christ as a belief doesnt prove he exists.
Tacitus referred to some of the Christian beliefs as myth, he never viewed Christ as mythological. The historicity of Christ through the recordings of Tacitus is accepted by scholars and the idea that one can refer to a group named after their leader and deny the leader existed is violating the law of non-contradiction. The Santa analogy is a strawman argument and I gave you the book to read that will help you in constructing proper arguments. Read it before you try and school others.


I did show you how some concepts created by the minds of men can describe reality and are exactly the same regardless of which person we ask to describe such concepts. THe laws of logic are the same as these concepts and you've failed to show any evidence that god created them. You don't have to accept (or understand) what I've shown you, but I did show you the truth.
You showed no such thing. In my opinion God is the author of logic and I gave the reasons why. At the very least, logic is a non-material law that rules all other natural laws and this flies in the face of the atheist world view that all that exists is the material. Your contention respecting human minds is that logic merely resides in the mind and that is categorically untrue. Again, if that is true then my logic would be different from yours since our minds operate differently but we know logic is universal. Logic is the same on Earth as it is on Mars, where there is no human mind present.

Now that you properly understand the law of noncontradiction, maybe you understand why the Jesus seminar is valid. THen again, maybe you don't.
The Jesus seminar is probably more properly termed as the Anti-Christ seminar.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Please provide empirical evidence for your view that time is not a physical property or answer the question as presented. Or just ignore this and let this part of the discussion die.



I think I saw something about it on the Universe, I'm sure you can find something online about it. This is a Wikipedia article on Loop Quantum Gravity Theory, which if proved would replace the Big Bang singularity with a Big Bounce.

Loop quantum gravity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



For now I am only saying that there is no empirical proof for an infinite regression of time for the pre-Big Bang singularity. My understanding is that the whole concept of the Big Bang singularity is currently being debated.

BTW, still waiting for your view on how to determine reality. Maybe you answered somewhere along the way in your discussion with someone else, but all I have seen is a brief recent reference to "logic and reason". A bit more of a detailed explanation would be appreciated.

I don't know what "empirical evidence" you are looking for regarding time. I haven't seen you present any empirical evidence that time is a physical property of matter, so it seems odd you would ask this of me. Time dilation doesn't seem to show anything except that time and space are closely related. In a universe without matter, I'm inclined to believe time would still exist. It may still be that time is nothing more than a concept. Your response in post 113 made me think that this point was obvious to you, and yet you've gone on to insist that time is a physical property of matter. I think this link does a good job of explaining time.

What Is Time? One Physicist Hunts for the Ultimate Theory | Wired Science | Wired.com

Loop quantum gravity theory still has a way to go before it replaces the big bang.

I understand your point that there is no proof for infinite regress of time for a singularity, but we do have evidence of singularities, we have no proof of god. If I have to choose between two possibilities, an eternal being without proof of existence or an eternal singularity (and there is evidence singularities exist) then its a bit silly to suggest the two options are equally likely.

WHen I referred to logic and reason I meant that any information should be viewed under the scrutiny of logic and reason before decided the reality of that information. LOL I hope that clears things up.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Maybe I can help clear this up, but forgive me if I don't wade thru pages of thread trying to determine where this particular argument began. Could either you or raze let me know what word is being argued over, and I'll give my understanding of the word. It may or may not correspond to the dictionary definition... is the word "soul" what is being discussed?

You asked some questions in post 223 that I responded to and Raze didn't like my response. He's been a fan of mine ever since we had a discussion on the nature of evidence (or was it free will?) He frequently pops into my threads to learn new things and I'm happy to teach him.

If you can't be bothered to look at responses to questions you've asked, I'm certainly willing to drop the issue.
 
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AlexBP

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I'll be willing to admit I was wrong if you can do one thing, simply show that the common man knew the Earth was round and not merely scholars and academics. The link you provided simply wants to give the common man "the benefit of the doubt" . I'm afraid I'm not willing to do this, especially considering all the evidence I've given. Yes, some were works of fiction,
Actually all of the "evidence" that you've given concerning flat-earth belief in Columbus's time came from works of fiction, not just some.

but often this is the only way of ascertaining what the common man believed in his day. Many authors who wrote fiction (Mark Twain, Shakespeare) gave profound insights into the minds of the common man in their day. Any attempt to dismiss fiction (Cyrano for example) for the sole reason that its fiction is poor judgement at best.
Well if I learn about history by reading the scholarly books and articles on history while you learn about history by reading fiction and believing it to be fact, that would certainly explain why the two of us have such different views of history.

I reread post 277 and don't see why citing Cosmas is dishonest. He may not have influenced intellectuals of his age, but as he was a traveling merchant (if I remember correctly) there is good reason to believe he held similar views as the common man of his age.
Well then I'll explain it again. Cosmas Indicopleustes lived about a thousand years prior to Christopher Columbus. Thus it is intellectually dishonest to imply that Cosmas's work tells us anything about what anybody in Columbus's time believed, because Cosmas did not live in Columbus's time.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Actually all of the "evidence" that you've given concerning flat-earth belief in Columbus's time came from works of fiction, not just some.


Well if I learn about history by reading the scholarly books and articles on history while you learn about history by reading fiction and believing it to be fact, that would certainly explain why the two of us have such different views of history.


Well then I'll explain it again. Cosmas Indicopleustes lived about a thousand years prior to Christopher Columbus. Thus it is intellectually dishonest to imply that Cosmas's work tells us anything about what anybody in Columbus's time believed, because Cosmas did not live in Columbus's time.

SInce your link is based on the work of Jeffrey Burton Russel, let's take a look and see if he thinks there is any chance that medieval people believed in a flat earth shall we?

" Some uneducated medieval Europeans may have assumed a flat Earth, if they thought about it at all. Since almost all uneducated Europeans in the Middle Ages lived restricted lives in small regions, they could have had little interest in geography"

Pointless Asteroid Scare

Now, you may scoff at works of fiction when discerning the opinions of people throughout history, but even if you consider it weak evidence its more evidence than you have presented. Also, since YOUR source agrees with me that the uneducated of that time may well have believed in a flat earth, I'm considering the matter closed until you can present evidence otherwise.


P.S. don't worry, in spite of your sad attempt to pull one quote from that link I gave you showing Stark's complete failure as a historian, no one who actually read the article would be fooled. I can (and will when I get time) refute all your historical mistakes. THey are numerous so the few minutes I normally get to post on here won't suffice, but I haven't forgotten.
 
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DCJazz

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Hello, this may seem like an overly simple question, but I would like to know how Christians determine reality? How do you decide fact from fiction? How do you know truth from opinion or belief? Is the bible your main source for this kind of determination? Something else?

I know this may seem a very vague question, but I am interested. Although the question is addressed to Christians, any faith or religion may answer. Thank you.

I determine reality the same way everybody else does. Logic, reason, and my physical senses. All things God gave me, of course, being my creator.

Tbh the question's a bit vague for me to answer specifically, so I've been forced to deliver a vague generic answer.
 
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food4thought

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Sorry Anatheist, I missed this response since it was on the following page to a previous post you made responding to the same post of mine.

"Our capacity for understanding is indeed limited."
LImited by what? All of human history indicates that our capacity for understanding only grows. BAck when mankind was squatting in caves, marveling at fire, gods explained everything. FRom the sun, moon, and stars...to the oceans, mountains, and weather, gods were used to answer phenomena we didn't understand. Now, as reason and science have peeled back the layers on our universe, god's realm has only gotten smaller. He's left with "how did life begin" and "what came before the universe". Even the question of how life began seems within reach of an answer. If we figure out decisively what existed before the universe, would you finally abandon your notion of god or would you simply look for the next unanswered question and say "god did it"?

Limited by our being trapped in space-time logic. The rest is a matter of worldviews. You hold a materialistic worldview that looks at the universe and says, "What an incredibly complex place we live in, how wonderfull that all this just happens to be." I hold a theistic worldview that looks at the universe and says, "What an incredibly complex place we live in, how wonderfull is our God that created it all." You see the natural processes as the cause of everything, I see natural processes as a creation of my God, who designed our universe. I have no doubt that there are various laws that govern the creation outside our universe, and if we were to somehow discover some of those laws, it would not harm my faith in the least. Those things that lie exclusively within our universe may indeed one day be accessable to human understanding, but the concept of timelessness is currently, and perhaps forever, outside our natural human capacity to fully comprehend.

I would love to hear any stories you have that you think proves a reality beyond our natural world exists. (Of course this leads to the problem of defining "supernatural" itself).

One comes to mind... I was praying with two other men from my church, and as we were praying in my minds eye I had a vision of the two brothers in front of me, not as they appeared normally, but stripped of their bodies and all I saw was their souls. They appeared as somewhat human in shape but they were completely light... that is the only way I can describe them to you. To accept this as supernatural will be difficult for you, since you yourself did not experience the vision and do not understand the difference between what I saw then and what I normally see when my mind visualizes something or someone... the quality and clarity of this vision was different... completely better in every way than my own visualization processes ever have been before or since. I did not try to conjure this image, it came to me fully formed and powerful without any attempt on my part to bring it up.

" What of my soul?"
Doesn't exist. No evidence for it.

Well, obviously we disagree here. I see where the disagreement between you and Raze came from now. My definition of soul is the Biblical one. The Hebrew term translated as "soul" is nephesh, which is attributed to all animal creatures as that which animates them, or gives them life/vitality... man's soul is created in God's image, unlike the rest of the animal kingdom. I have no desire to debate the existence of the soul with you, since I am only peripherally aware of the science surrounding the materialistic understanding of human vitality and life. I simply say that I believe that the soul exists based upon the Bible and my vision.

" How exactly do I quantify that part of me that the Bible calls "spirit", which came alive when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior?"
ALso, no evidence for that either.
The rest of what you wrote gets into the problem with "miracles", but hopefully my post to Raze coming up will explain that.

All I can tell you is that something in me was dead before I came to Jesus, and now I am alive in a way I was not before that. I have been given gifts that I did not possess before, and I have experienced the pressense of the Spirit of God.
 
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