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Determining Personhood or Being Meaningfully Human

Max S Cherry

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Well, once a fetus has achieved personhood, that person stays a person. Being sick doesn't make you an un-person.

I see why this would be desirable, but I do not see why it must necessarily be true. If consciousness and suffering are the criteria and if one loses those things, even temporarily, it seems at least possible that they may have also lost personhood.

Okay, since my criterion was consciousness and suffering, that would mean that people in persistent vegetative states are no longer people, and can be euthanized. And I don't have a problem with that.

That would definitely be one result, but I do not know that a person's mental state would have to degraded to that level to lose personhood.

How do you judge one person over another person if they are equally persons? I suppose you could flip a coin, but I have no problem siding with the mother in these cases.

I do not know the answer to that question either, but I cannot side as easily with the mother. Still with these criteria, I cannot side completely with the fetus either.
 
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essentialsaltes

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I see why this would be desirable, but I do not see why it must necessarily be true. If consciousness and suffering are the criteria and if one loses those things, even temporarily, it seems at least possible that they may have also lost personhood.

Well, we're pursuing my idea of personhood, so I get to make the rules. I grant dispensations to people under anesthesia, or who have suffered a blow to the head that has temporarily knocked them unconscious. They get to stay people. But humans who have suffered brain injuries that permanently remove consciousness and the ability to suffer (e.g. dead people, and people in persistent vegetative states) have lost their personhood.

Backing up, no definition of personhood is going to be 'logically necessary'. Personhood is not something that exists 'out there' waiting for us to discover it using a personometer in a laboratory setting. Personhood is a legal status, an idea, created by human thought, defined by the definition we give it. If you don't like mine, make your own.
 
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jayem

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Good discussion. Here's my take on it:

Personhood occurs at either of 2 points, whichever comes first:

1) At birth, whenever that occurs

2) If still in utero, when the fetus reaches the age of natural viability. Which is when it could reasonably be expected to survive without intensive artificial life support if it were born. 24 weeks of gestational age is the lower limit.

Reasoning:

I would define a person as being a member of human society. To be a member of society, one has to be in society. Meaning one has to be born. Like being a member of a club requires going through some initiation process to be in the club. Birth is the initiation into the club of persons. But I will expand my definition to include a naturally viable fetus. This is one that could be reasonably expected to survive if it were born, with the same care given to any other newborn-- oral feeding, warmth, nurturing, etc. Natural viability is a more practically useful criterion for personhood than subjective things like cognitive ability or brain function. It's easily determined. There is good objective data on when it occurs. In the older pediatric literature, before the days of ventilators, total parenteral nutrition, lung surfactant, etc, a preemie born at 24 weeks had just over a 50% of survival. (Birth weight is also a factor in survivial, but that's harder to determine pre-natally.) Also, natural viability is much more biologically fixed, and will not be a continually moving target as neonatal life support technology advances.

Viability also dovetails nicely with the concept of balancing rights. I can understand the argument that an embryo might have a right to an undisturbed gestation. It is a gentically distinct individual. But it's physically attached to its mother, and makes a direct physiological demand on her heart, lungs, kidneys, and other organ systems. This is very different than a newborn, who makes no direct physiologic demand on the mother's body, and can thrive perfectly well under the care of anyone providing food, shelter, protection, etc. I believe the mother has a right to bodily autonomy, and must consent to her organ systems being directly used by another individual. I also believe such consent is ongoing, and the act of becoming pregnant does not imply automatic consent for a 9 month gestation. So as long as the fetus requires direct use of her organs, the mother's right to bodily autonomy supercedes any fetal rights. When the fetus no longer needs her bodily functions--which is when it's born, or when it's viable--then it becomes a person with its own rights.

I know all this is arbitrary, but any definition of personhood will be arbitrary. This is no more arbitrary than claiming a zygote is a person. But I also think it is fair, and reasonable, and sensibly balances the interests of a woman and a fetus.
 
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Max S Cherry

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I have a different system that I use myself. Namely I assign value to rational thought and experiences. These are found in the frontal cortex of humans. If a human is alive and has one of these then she is a person.

I have asked around and nobody has so far, at least in my opinion, shown my system to have any inconsistencies, and it addresses the person-hood issue quite well.

Without having given this a lot of thought, it sounds well thought out and consistent. I am left with a few questions though. Is it the presence of these things (rational thought and experiences) or the capability of potentially having these things (having a frontal cortex) that establishes personhood? There seems to be problems with either, but I may have overlooked another possibility.
 
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brightlights

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2) If still in utero, when the fetus reaches the age of natural viability. Which is when it could reasonably be expected to survive without intensive artificial life support if it were born. 24 weeks of gestational age is the lower limit.

Our friends just gave birth to their baby girl prematurely. She wouldn't have survived without life support (which she was one for several weeks). Our government still recognized her as a person. She had health insurance.
 
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Max S Cherry

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Well, we're pursuing my idea of personhood, so I get to make the rules.

Very true, and I was not attempting to amend your rules only to understand them.

I grant dispensations to people under anesthesia, or who have suffered a blow to the head that has temporarily knocked them unconscious. They get to stay people. But humans who have suffered brain injuries that permanently remove consciousness and the ability to suffer (e.g. dead people, and people in persistent vegetative states) have lost their personhood.

I think your rules serve societal needs well, and your next point is very well taken.

Backing up, no definition of personhood is going to be 'logically necessary'. Personhood is not something that exists 'out there' waiting for us to discover it using a personometer in a laboratory setting. Personhood is a legal status, an idea, created by human thought, defined by the definition we give it. If you don't like mine, make your own.

This is true, but I think that the definition should be consistent and not only be applicable for granting or prohibiting abortions. If it serves in one situation, it should be able to serve in another. I think you are allowing for that. And I do not know if I actually like yours, but since I am allowing that I do not have one, yours is pretty good, for now anyway.
 
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jayem

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Our friends just gave birth to their baby girl prematurely. She wouldn't have survived without life support (which she was one for several weeks). Our government still recognized her as a person. She had health insurance.

Of course. Perhaps I didn't make it clear. It's only when still in utero that the natural viability criterion is applicable. Once a baby is born, it is fully a person, whenever that birth occurs, and whether the newborn is viable or not.
 
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yasic

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Without having given this a lot of thought, it sounds well thought out and consistent. I am left with a few questions though. Is it the presence of these things (rational thought and experiences) or the capability of potentially having these things (having a frontal cortex) that establishes personhood? There seems to be problems with either, but I may have overlooked another possibility.

I personally don't care about potentials or capacity, only on what exists. We know (at least this is what I am told) for a fact that until the frontal cortex 'kicks' in with brainwaves that emotions, and thoughts do not exist. We do not know if they actually exist with the first waves or if it is just scrambled signals not doing anything until it develops more, simply put our technology is not up to date.

The way I handle this problem is 'err on the side of caution'. Simply put at 20 weeks the woman would have had plenty of time to abort if she desired too and is only 1-2 weeks away from the point of viability. If the fetus does feel pain or have desires on any level similar to our own then killing him/her is doing actual harm. At this point we may as well simply grant person-hood just in case (and for a number of other reasons such as protecting the idea of sanctity of life that I can get into if you desire me too).
 
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essentialsaltes

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Very true, and I was not attempting to amend your rules only to understand them.

I apologize for being a little testy in my reply, and for assuming you were being argumentative in the bad sense, rather than argumentative in the good sense.
 
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