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Calminian

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Momma2H said:
Ok, I've read these verses many times before. From my point of view, the Big Bang Theory has been proven scientifically and I've seen programs on tv about it all the time. It all makes perfect sense. Like I said before, the only part I disagree with is that it "just happened". I know God made it happen.

The Big Bang is a theory about how thing may have come about naturally. The Genesis account is about how thing came about miraculously (supernaturally). Scientific methods cannot investigate supernatural events, especially in the distent past.

Momma2H said:
It took God 7 whole days to create the heavens and the earth. Don't you think since he's such a mighty and awesome God that if He was just going to say it and it was created that it would take less than 7 days?

Of course. God spread creation out over six days for a reason. He created a model for our work week.

Ex. 20:9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: ... 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

He could have done it is six seconds. What an interesting work week that would have been.
 
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ebia

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Calminian said:
Come on now. It takes two to tango.
Debating isn't allowed on this forum. I would prefer if it was, and I have allowed myself to be dragged into one, but those are the rules.
 
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MinDach

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I am decently versed in the Bible and have a decent understanding of it.

Life is a big class room, each day you may think you have all the answers, but somethings in life comes around and changes every thing you held to be the truth. You may know Gods Word, but do you know God Him self. This is your key to the truth, there are many people God will say to I never knew you. Find him and then all your doubts can be answered.
 
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Calminian

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ebia said:
Debating isn't allowed on this forum. I would prefer if it was, and I have allowed myself to be dragged into one, but those are the rules.

I think were okay. We're all just talking here giving our various opinions. It's all good. I'm just asking you questions about the beliefs you have. If you don't want to answer, fine. Nobody can force you. We can have a friendly dialog, even if we disagree. I think the mods will be okay with that. I think you just need to chill out a little.
 
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ebia

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Calminian said:
I think were okay. We're all just talking here giving our various opinions. It's all good. I'm just asking you questions about the beliefs you have. If you don't want to answer, fine. Nobody can force you. We can have a friendly dialog, even if we disagree. I think the mods will be okay with that. I think you just need to chill out a little.
I have had posts edited and warnings issued for debating in this forum in the past. It would help if the moderators were consistent, but it seems to depend on whether the views being expressed agree with their views or not.
 
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Momma2H

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Jim47 said:
As one person said earlier in this thread, there is no physical evedience that God exhists. This is quite true, and therefore there is no way to prove that God created the heavens and earth. As for it taking Him 7 days instead of just a moment, I'm sure God could have done it in a moment, but wouldn't that draw even more doubt into peoples faith who is weak?

The danger is not accepting the creation account as written is this: if you doubt creation then what else to do you doubt? When and where do you draw the line with your doubts and fears? Do you maybe doubt that Jesus really did come to rescue us? Do you doubt that He was raised from the dead? One little doubt can lead into many other doubts until one's faith is ship wrecked. I do not chastise anyone for faith that is weak, I am just trying to show the dangers in doubting, especially to those who are brand new believers. Does that make sence? :)

Ok, it seems that everyone keeps missing the fact that I do believe in creation, I know that God created us, and the earth, and the unniverse. I just think that he also could very well have used the method that the Big Bang Theory explains. Of course they say it "just happened" and I don't believe that for one second, but I do believe that God created every single detail for a purpose, to show us how awesome of a God he really is. Have you ever studied the human body and all the systems and cells and organs we have? Don't you think God created all those specifically and seperately so we can function properly? It took Him a day to create it, so regardless of if it was really only a second or mintue of the whole day, he did create every single part of us, the world, the universe with intricate details. Do you agree? So, how do we know he didn't throw some planets together and do all the stuff the scientists have explained that the earth/universe went through to get where it is today. I know they say the universe was formed over millions of years (or more) and that God only spent one day on each aspect, but to us a million years could be one day to Him. We don't really know. I just think that if you embrace all the aspects scientfically proven, then it just shows you how awesome God really is.
 
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Calminian

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Momma2H said:
The danger is not accepting the creation account as written is this:...

Ok, it seems that everyone keeps missing the fact that I do believe in creation....

I think you're not reading carefully.
 
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Calminian

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ebia said:
I have had posts edited and warnings issued for debating in this forum in the past. It would help if the moderators were consistent, but it seems to depend on whether the views being expressed agree with their views or not.

The OP was a little unique, though. He is asking for support for his views. You are providing that in a sense. I'm providing a different perspective.

But we both agree that one shouldn't dismiss all OT stories as myth. I think I can explain why that is a problem. Your job seems a little tougher being that you've dismissed many stories in Genesis. You now need to explain why that's okay in Genesis, yet not okay in say Exodus, or Joshua.

We also both agree that one can be a christian, even if he rejects everything in the Bible accept the essentials about Jesus and the resurrection. Yet my fear is he is he has no root and is in danger of falling away. You don't seem to have that fear.

This seems all good to me, at least so far, less a few excited comments.
 
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ebia

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No-one is dismissing any of the OT stories as myth. Acknowledging something as myth is not to dismiss it - myth is just as capable of transmitting truth as any other form of writing, more capable than most. The idea that factual forms of writing are somehow more true than other forms is a horribly modern, secular idea.

Most of the world's Christians accept that Genesis is true, but not factual accurate (because it's not meant to be) account. It's a story that tells us about God, about us, about what our place is in creation, about what God's place is in relation to creation, etc. It's a desperately important story - along side the incarnation/crucifixion/resurrection story the most important story that can possibly be told - to suggest that anyone is dismissing it is to miss the point of what they are saying.
 
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Rosebaronet

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Your believe is called Liberal Christianity or to be exact, you are an Theist evolutionist, there are churches that actually agrees with your view, try look up on Universalist-uniontarian church.

Scientifically, Big-Bang as a theory of origin is as much a hypothesis as the 6 day creation theory, but I am not here to preach, personally, I am a liberal Christian too, and I do not believe you should be judged based on your attempt to search for scietific truth.

However I do not think you should be concerned about the theory of origin, or whether old testament is literal or symbolic, you should worry about developing your personal relationship with the Lord, all the minor bickering will subside if we just think about how God loves us.

God bless.
 
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Calminian

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ebia said:
No-one is dismissing any of the OT stories as myth. Acknowledging something as myth is not to dismiss it - myth is just as capable of transmitting truth as any other form of writing, more capable than most. The idea that factual forms of writing are somehow more true than other forms is a horribly modern, secular idea.

Most of the world's Christians accept that Genesis is true, but not factual accurate (because it's not meant to be) account. It's a story that tells us about God, about us, about what our place is in creation, about what God's place is in relation to creation, etc. It's a desperately important story - along side the incarnation/crucifixion/resurrection story the most important story that can possibly be told - to suggest that anyone is dismissing it is to miss the point of what they are saying.

Everyone understands this point. There are many that believe the Resurrection story is a myth that communicates spiritual truths. Are you one of them? If not, explain why not. You just said myth is just as capable of transmitting truth as any other form of writing. Furthermore you said factual forms of writing are no more true than mythical forms. Therefore you must believe one can be a true christian and yet believe the resurrection is a myth. Is this correct? If not explain your side. We’re just talking here.
 
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WickedServant

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It is good to take the four Gopsels as literal; and if only them, then read only them, and leave the rest for later. If one can take the epistles as literal, then good, read the Gospels, and them too, and leave the rest for later.

There must be something that is solid, something that cannot be viewed or translated or diluted in any other way than the truth - Christ lived for you in the flesh, died for you in the flesh, and resurrected Himself for you in the flesh, that you might have hope.

May you be blessed.
 
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felix1972

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Spectre01 said:
I will say this: that if you believe in God, and the Resurrection of Christ, than you are not alone. If you believe that Christ died for you, than you must know that He loves you, which He does. I would advise to read the book of Romans, which is an overview of what Christ did for us all. Revelation 3:20 is good as wellI know that God will help put it in perspective for you. Dont listen to everybody, open up and trust in God. I pray that you will come to know Christ, as I have, and that His love will be shown to you. If you put faith in Christ, you wont be all alone anymore.

God Bless
You have to either believe the whole Bible, or none at all. It either came from God, or it didn't.
 
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Dark_Lite

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Calminian said:
The Big Bang is a theory about how thing may have come about naturally. The Genesis account is about how thing came about miraculously (supernaturally). Scientific methods cannot investigate supernatural events, especially in the distent past.

Science explains the how, God explains the why. The creation story as described in Geneis 1 makes absolutely no sense with regards to natural processes. It's all backwards. Yes, God could have done it that way, but I don't believe he did. We are made in God's image, so God must have at least some similarities in logic to humans. Why would he create the world in an out-of-order process? The ancient Jews, more than likely, would not be able to understand the concepts of heliocentrism, the big bang, and the large distances/amounts of time that are involved with outer space. That's why the creation story was recorded as it was.

Of course. God spread creation out over six days for a reason. He created a model for our work week.

That is indeed one of the main reasons why the Genesis creation account is set up like it is. The days, which I believe to be symbolic units of time, are set up in a way so that we may have a sabbath.

Anyway, as for the actual topic at hand: There are plenty of people out there who would support your beliefs. I support some of your beliefs and disagree with others, but that's another matter. It sounds like you have the quite common problem of being exposed for a long period of time to an environment that doesn't agree with your beliefs. And instead of simply agreeing to disagree or something like that, they continually either shoved them down your throat or punished you in some way. Now, obviously a conservative evangelical Christian school will probably preach conservative evangelical doctrines. But since you had no way to get out of that (or so it seems), it has slightly skewered your perceptions of what Christianity is and who Christians are.

I would also not dismiss all stories of the Old Testament as pure allegory, because it's fairly obvious that some of them aren't. I mean, it is a recorded history of the Jewish people. Under the Christian belief system, it is assumed that God can do miracles, of course. So, some of the things, such as the parting of the Red Sea, or the Jews wandering the desert for fourty days and still managing to live could quite possibly be true. I, for example, obviously do not believe the universe was created in six literal days. I believe it to be created 13.5 billion years ago in the way science describes. However, I also believe in monogenism, or that all humans alive today are descended from a single person. While there are some problems with the theory (as there are with most), it gives possible scientific evidence to the possible existance of an Adam and Eve. The theory states that all of humanity that's living today is descended from a single woman named Mitochondrial Eve. The person who this Mitochondrial Eve would've mated with would have been Adam. Contrary to what some people seem to think, it is possible to integrate Christianity and science.

Given your beliefs, you should probably check out a more liberal church. The Methodist Church is probably a good bet. They're fairly accepting and have a wide range of theological beliefs within their denomination.
 
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WickedServant

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I definitely agree that science can be integrated into Christianity, and so can mathematics, and poetry, and art, etc... and I lay these aside in trying to understand God until it is known how and where they fit. ;)

"I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Jesus Christ my Lord" St. Paul, Apostle

May you be blessed.
 
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ebia

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Calminian said:
Everyone understands this point. There are many that believe the Resurrection story is a myth that communicates spiritual truths. Are you one of them?
No.

If not, explain why not.
Because (a) I believe the resurrection happened pretty much as described in the gospels. (b) I don't personally understand how it can work as myth (although some people clearly do). If the story is myth (or whatever the correct term would be) then what is the underlying saving "event" that it attempts to convey? (c) The literary natures of the gospel accounts and the epistles is completely different from the literary natures of the early chapters of Genesis. Each has to be addressed on it's own merits.


You just said myth is just as capable of transmitting truth as any other form of writing.
Yep

Furthermore you said factual forms of writing are no more true than mythical forms.
Yep

Therefore you must believe one can be a true christian and yet believe the resurrection is a myth.
That doesn't necessarly follow. It depends on what the truth is that needs to be communicated; what is important is the message, not the form of transmission. But it's not my job to determine whether someone else is a "true Christian" anyway.
 
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