Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell

[Faith.Man]

Here's what Demond Tutu thinks of Jews:

Bishop Tutu Is No Saint When it Comes To Jews :: Gatestone Institute

Desmond Tutu: Godfather of Hell | FrontPage Magazine

Someone give Desmond Tutu a Bible before it's too late!

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Your first question references morals. Your second question references religious views. You seem to think that they are one and the same. They are not.

According to Webster's Dictionary, moral is defined as follows: "of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior, ethical; expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior; conforming to a standard of right behavior; sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment; capable of right and wrong action."

Please note that the definition makes no reference to religion. So I am correct that a moral argument can be made in favor of allowing homosexuality without any reference to my religious views.

Please note that I am not promoting such behavior, simply noting that a moral argument can be made in its favor, as opposed to behavior such as pedophilia for which I believe no moral argument can be made.

So do yo believe, therefore, there is a dividing line between the sacred and the secular in the lives of any man or woman?

BTW

 

[ebia]

Here's what Demond Tutu thinks of Jews:

Bishop Tutu Is No Saint When it Comes To Jews :: Gatestone Institute

Having read quite a bit of what he has to say about Israel that article is extraordinarily distorted. Many zionists don't like him because, like most of the world, he challenges the state of Israel where it needs challenging. By not providing full, in context, quotes and being highly selective the writer has Tutu saying things that are a million miles from his message.

Desmond Tutu: Godfather of Hell | FrontPage Magazine

Someone give Desmond Tutu a Bible before it's too late!

This article is pure waffle. It doesn't say anything at all. Did you even read anything except the headline?

 

[ebia]

A. Yes, he is.

Not according to his stuff that I've read. Which is a fair bit. A universalist is certain that all will be saved. Tutu hopes that all will be saved - that is an opinion within historical Christian orthodoxy.

B. It means he doesn't give a rip about the Bible clearly saying that only those who profess faith in Jesus will have eternal life.

The bible doesn't say that. You've inferred that (or, rather, taken on a tradition that has inferred that). The bible has quite a few different things to say - some, at face value on their own imply one thing, some quite different. Orthodoxy holds all of those together in tension.

C. You tell me, how can a serious Christian take him seriously based on B?

So what you really meant to say is "I don't think serious Christians should..." That's a very different statement from the one you made. Plenty of vary serious Christians take him very seriously indeed. "No future without forgiveness" is one of two must-read books on forgiveness.

E. I think you meant D here, but I will answer your question nonetheless. You will have to ask them if they are eating porridge at the same time. I cannot answer on their behalf.

I think you didn't understand the question.

 

[GomesDusty]

ebia, I won't quote all the Scriptures that claim only faith in Jesus can save you, because I don't have all day. Romans 10:9 should suffice to get you interested though. God bless you.

 

[ebia]

ebia, I won't quote all the Scriptures that [suggest] only faith in Jesus can save you, because I don't have all day. Romans 10:9 should suffice to get you interested though. God bless you.

And I won't quote all the scriptures that suggest the picture is bigger than that. Of course "Because if you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and in your heart you have faith that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." says nothing about those who have not yet confessed...


Since you've only responded on this one point I take it that you've taken the others onboard

 

[Faith.Man]

Having read quite a bit of what he has to say about Israel that article is extraordinarily distorted. Many zionists don't like him because, like most of the world, he challenges the state of Israel where it needs challenging. By not providing full, in context, quotes and being highly selective the writer has Tutu saying things that are a million miles from his message.

This article is pure waffle. It doesn't say anything at all. Did you even read anything except the headline?

So confess Jesus as your savior and then live your life any which way you choose. Is this the heretical doctrine you're defending and spreading? You've made a god out of your own vain imagination.

 

[ebia]

So confess Jesus as your savior and then live your life any which way you choose. Is this the heretical doctrine you're defending and spreading? You've made a god out of your own vain imagination.

None of that connects remotely with anything I've said. I pointed out that one of your sources misrepresents and the other says nothing whatsoever.

 

[GomesDusty]

And I won't quote all the scriptures that suggest the picture is bigger than that. Of course "Because if you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and in your heart you have faith that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." says nothing about those who have not yet confessed...


Since you've only responded on this one point I take it that you've taken the others onboard

ebia, aren't you smug to consider I took your other points on board? I certainly did not. Sorry. I just highlighted the most obvious. However, you didn't back up your point with a single scripture.

 

[ebia]

ebia, aren't you smug to consider I took your other points on board? I certainly did not. Sorry. I just highlighted the most obvious. However, you didn't back up your point with a single scripture.

"The sun rises in the east, not the west" doesn't require scriptural backup. Leave your red-herring at the fish mangers.

I pointed out
A: a factual mistake in your post - tutu is not a universalist, since he doesn't claim to know that all men are saved.
b (n/a)
C: you shifted your goalposts
D: you committed the "no true Scotsman" fallacy

 

[AirForceTeacher]

Do you believe practicing homosexuals, lesbians and pedophiles are going to Heaven if they attend church but do not repent of their sinful ways? Do you deny the sinfulness of homosexual acts, lesbian acts and pedophilia?

Do you believe practicing gluttons, smokers, adulterers, inappropriate content addicts, people who swear or Christian businessmen who cheat their customers are going to heaven?

 

[ebia]

Do you believe practicing gluttons,

That takes care of pretty much the whole of Christianity in the western world in one hit n

 

[GomesDusty]

"The sun rises in the east, not the west" doesn't require scriptural backup. Leave your red-herring at the fish mangers.

I pointed out
A: a factual mistake in your post - tutu is not a universalist, since he doesn't claim to know that all men are saved.
b (n/a)
C: you shifted your goalposts
D: you committed the "no true Scotsman" fallacy

Fish mangers? A manger is where Jesus was, not fish. We are meant to be fishers of men, instead of believing in universalism.

A. Tutu is a universalist.
B. Case closed - you refused to provide scriptural back up.
C. No, I didn't.
D. No, I didn't

God bless you, mate. I am not going to enter into a debate here. There is no point. You refuse to argue from scripture. I've got to tell people about Jesus, while you waste your time arguing that people don't have to profess faith in Jesus.

 

[GomesDusty]

P.S. I will not be arguing this further.

 

[ebia]

Fish mangers? A manger is where Jesus was, not fish. We are meant to be fishers of men, instead of believing in universalism.

Apple spelling "corrector". Should have been "fishmonger"

A. Tutu is a universalist.

No he isn't. Tutu hopes all will be saved - he has explicitly said that he doesn't know that all will be; universalist know all will be saved.

B. Case closed - you refused to provide scriptural back up.

And you supplied a scripture reference that doesn't say what you are using it to support

You were supposed to be be providing evidence that those without faith won't be saved, but you provided a verse that says that those with faith will be saved.

C. No, I didn't.

Yes you did. You moved from "no serious Christian..." To " no serious Christian should..."

D. No, I didn't

Yes you did.

 

[Faith.Man]

Do you believe practicing gluttons, smokers, adulterers, inappropriate content addicts, people who swear or Christian businessmen who cheat their customers are going to heaven?

Jesus said repent and be saved, and sin no more. So the unrepentent are not saved and those who continue in their sin are not save. That's what Jesus said. If we do sin again, we are to repent and once again follow Jesus.

 

[Archivist]

Jesus said repent and be saved, and sin no more. So the unrepentent are not saved and those who continue in their sin are not save. That's what Jesus said. If we do sin again, we are to repent and once again follow Jesus.

But we all continue to sin, and if we say that we are without sin we decieve ourselves. As St. Paul wrote, "For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate."

 

[ViaCrucis]

Jesus said repent and be saved, and sin no more. So the unrepentent are not saved and those who continue in their sin are not save. That's what Jesus said. If we do sin again, we are to repent and once again follow Jesus.

So if you were to be struck by lightning a half a minute after looking at a woman a bit too intently, you'd be damned?

Or does, perhaps, St. Paul's words that "where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more" have its place here.

Frankly I have more faith in God's mercy than I do my own sinful behavior. There's simply no way I could give a full accounting of my sins, they are entirely too many to count, and the list piles up daily through my thoughts, words, and deeds, both knowingly and unknowingly. So I confess my sins freely, and repent regularly--but I know that I haven't accounted for everything, and I certainly do not repent and confess as often as I ought.

To be honest, what you are advocating seems to come across as little more than works righteousness--that it's up to us to keep our t's crossed and i's dotted, otherwise into the fire we go. If what you say is truly accurate, then no one is or can be saved.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Faith.Man]

But we all continue to sin, and if we say that we are without sin we decieve ourselves. As St. Paul wrote, "For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate."

Eph 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace
Eph 1:8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.

You are either saved by grace from before the foundation of the world, before creation, or you are not. The lawless will have no place in Heaven.

Luk_15:7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.
Luk_15:10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."

Jas_5:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. [All Scripture taken from the NIV-2011]

 

[ebia]

Jesus said repent and be saved, and sin no more. So the unrepentent are not saved and those who continue in their sin are not save.

I've get to meet anyone who has recognised all their sins, let alone repented of them. So I guess Jesus saved no one in your theory.