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I don't know if you've heard of this illustration.
Think of water, ice and steam - they all appear slightly different, yet they are all H20,,,they are the same essence and substance.
Thus, God is one, yet three.
I'm sure this is not a perfect illustration...but it is hard to grasp God intellectually in many ways.
"The Word is begotten of the Mind,
The Breath proceeds from the Mind,
Yet there was never a time when the Mind existed without the Word and Breath.
They dwelt in the Darkness that was before darkness, outside time,
Yet They made all things within time,
For time and darkness came into being only when movement and light were made.
"By Thinking which is beyond thought, the Primal Essence creates.
The Word brings forth and fulfills the command of the Mind,
The Action-Breath accomplishes and perfects,
And with these two hands of the Mind,
Thought becomes deed
I don't think an abstracted doctine is a good approach to Trinity. If that's what you want, then I don't think you can do better than the Athanasian Creed, but that's not how the bible approaches the issue.
Rather, it approaches the issue through stories (explicit and implicit) that gradually show the nature of God as a single God but three persons in unique relationship.
The Holy Trinity - Incomprehensible mystery.
One God, in Three Persons. Understand how, no.
It is like a point in 3d space. You can move in three different perpendicular lines vertical left right forward backward or you can move along all three lines at the same time if you think like cartesian coordinates. If you project from a position in space not on an axis you always get a point on each line (3 points) but one point in space if you are along a line you get one point on the line and a projection on the origin. The point is if you focus on one aspect of the trinity the other two appear as one and it appears as one. Think of a corner in a room bordering on the floor. Imagine it duplicated 8 times around the cusp of the corner. Then you have 3d space and that is what I'm describing. The trinity is always a projection of 3 points from one in open space off of an axis.
You could think of the x axis as son, y axis holy spirit and z axis as father. Then you have a situation in which if you focus on the father as the essence of the Godhead you get son and holy spirit projected on the origin. Etc. When christ came to the earth the theophany of his baptism was equal parts of each so it would be along a line 45 degrees to each axis. This is hardly a good explanation, just a concept to hang the trinity on so you don't have to cry about it.
God, the Trinity of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, One in essence and undivided, coexistent and coeternal. As the God of eternity proceeded to create..."And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." (Genesis 1:26, King James Vesion, KJV). The Trinity as spoken by the prophet Isaiah, "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was , there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit hath sent me." (Isaiah 48:16, KJV) a prophecy of the sending of the Son who became Jesus Christ our Saviour. The Son is also called the Word, 'In the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1,KJV). The incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14,KJV). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me." (John 15:26,KJV). The Trinity in the salvation of our souls, "For through him (Jesus Christ) we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." (Ephesians 2:18,KJV). God bless.
Jesus is the Creator so it would be wrong to say that he is in the image of God like man is in the image of God. It would be more accurate to say that man is in the image of Christ.Questions: Is Jesus also the Image of God? Being fully human? What would the fully God nature mean regarding this?
It means he is not created. He existed from eternity with the Father and the Holy Spirit as God.Why is Jesus begotten? What does this mean?
Jesus is the Creator so it would be wrong to say that he is in the image of God like man is in the image of God. It would be more accurate to say that man is in the image of Christ.
It means he is not created. He existed from eternity with the Father and the Holy Spirit as God.
2 Corinthians 4:4 said:The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Colossians 1:15 said:He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
The Spirit of God is the Author of wisdom. (Job 32:8)
The Spirit of God is the Source of life. (Job 33:4)
If God should turn His attention elsewhere, if He should withdraw His life-giving Spirit from this world, then human history would come to an end. (Job 34:14-15)
Thus, the Holy Spirit is the Creator and Sustainer of life.
"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:24)
God in essence is Spirit.
Thanks for sharing.I especially like the highlighted verse.
Excellant questions!For the two of you: If this concept is beyond our understanding, why do you believe God would reveal it? What purpose does it serve? If anything it might drive people away from God due to confusion, misunderstandings, or just plain rejection of such a concept given the way we as humans think.
Is there some benefit to worshiping an identity of God that distinguishes "Persons" or "Parts" or however you want to think of it? As opposed to worshiping an abstract concept of God?
As an example, lets say I meet a new friend named Joseph. Whenever I refer to Joseph, I refer to him as a single person. I think of him as a single person. But in reality he is composed of numerous organs and body parts. And even those organs and body parts are composed of God knows how many cells. And those cells are God knows how many atoms. And the atoms are God knows how many sub-atomic particles. There would be absolutely no value, in my mind, to address Joseph to this level of detail, though it be true. It would only confuse people, if not myself included, by addressing Joseph in so many pieces. When all along I can just address Joseph at a "High Level Approach" through abstracting the concept of Joseph as a single indivisible person.
Excellant questions!
The question of "parts" cannot apply to God. How could something that we say to be infinite, even an infinite existence also have parts? Which "part" would be greater if all are infinite? How is there "room" for three infinite parts? One "part" would have to end where the next begins, which implies limits to something we say has no limits.
While One God and Three Persons, it is not the same as saying God has three parts (or three roles or three modes). By definition God exists, He does consist - does not have parts as we do.
Again I maintain that a god we could fully comprehend would not be much of a god. In fact if we could fully comprehend a "god", the next logical thought should be this is no god at all. A God that has revealed something of Himself to us yet is still not fully comprehensible is made no less God by our lack of understanding.
As to why reveal this particular thing, the Trinity? It has helped people understand how God releates to us. His Spirit comforts, His Son gives Himself in order to make it possible for all of us to be restored in our relationship to the Father. Also limits out tendency to try to humanize Him.Prevents of us from being polytheist while explaining/retaining a fuller explanation of His relations toward us (Creator - Father, Redeemer - Son, Comfort - Spirit) and so on.
Thanks for your answers. I have yet another question related to the highlighted portion of your answers.
How does including a Fully Human/Fully God person into the Godhead mitigate this tendency? I have seen some Christian responses that, in my opinion, push the envelope of this topic a little too far, effectively humanizing God. Although maybe they are confused or maybe I misunderstood them. Jesus was a historical person. Would I be correct in saying Christians worship Jesus in Spirit? Not Jesus in person (Body)?
It is an amplfied meaning of from (applied to power & procreation in actual or descriptive sense). To describe the difference between the 3 Divine Persons of the Holy Trinity a catechism of the Orthodox Church states, "God the Father is neither begotten nor proceeds from any other Person; God the Son is from all eternity begotten of the Father; God the Holy Spirit from all eternity proceeds from the Father." (Syrian Antiochian Orthodox catechism, c. 1949). I was only addressing your individual post if others have answreed already then that is good & not trying to be redundant. Thankyou and God bless. (please note that my answer to your 1st question became wrapped with it as part of the quote, sorry).Questions: Is Jesus also the Image of God? Being fully human? What would the fully God nature mean regarding this? Jesus Christ is the image of God (Jesus answering the apostle Philip,"...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.."John 14:9, KJV) and preached by St. Paul, "Who (Jesus Christ) is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature.' (Colossians 1:15,KJV). The Son of God (who also is God) is eternal and "by him were all things created" (Colossians 1:16, KJV). The Son as the Word became flesh incarnate (John 1:14) so Jesus Christ was both God and man fully divine and human (but without sin). The Holy Trinity effected His incarnation which is evident when the angel Gabriel tells the ever virgin St. Mary,"...The Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall oveshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called Son of God."(Luke 1:35, KJV). The Holy Spirit proceeded from the Highest (the Father) to give immaculate conception of the Son of God in the womb of the virgin Mary and note how each person of the Trinity (one God) is revealed here
Why is Jesus begotten? What does this mean?
Well, for God so loved the world (John 3:16), He willingly became a human being on our behalf, relinquishing His glory (Matthew 17:2), though retaining His deity. He veiled the manifestations of deity and assumed real humanity. He dwelt with His people. (2 Chronicles 6:18; John 1:14)
DrBubbaLove said:As to why reveal this particular thing, the Trinity? It has helped people understand how God releates to us. His Spirit comforts, His Son gives Himself in order to make it possible for all of us to be restored in our relationship to the Father. Also limits out tendency to try to humanize Him. Prevents of us from being polytheist while explaining/retaining a fuller explanation of His relations toward us (Creator - Father, Redeemer - Son, Comfort - Spirit) and so on.
It is an amplfied meaning of from (applied to power & procreation in actual or descriptive sense). To describe the difference between the 3 Divine Persons of the Holy Trinity a catechism of the Orthodox Church states, "God the Father is neither begotten nor proceeds from any other Person; God the Son is from all eternity begotten of the Father; God the Holy Spirit from all eternity proceeds from the Father." (Syrian Antiochian Orthodox catechism, c. 1949). I was only addressing your individual post if others have answreed already then that is good & not trying to be redundant. Thankyou and God bless. (please note that my answer to your 1st question became wrapped with it as part of the quote, sorry).
"God the Father is neither begotten nor proceeds from any other Person; God the Son is from all eternity begotten of the Father; God the Holy Spirit from all eternity proceeds from the Father." (Syrian Antiochian Orthodox catechism, c. 1949).
Jesus says that to know him is to know God.Both verses address Jesus the Christ as being the image of God. Is this referring to his humanity only?
You have to look at the context. When Paul says fistborn here he is talking about firstborn in the resurrection. Jesus was the first to be resurrected.The second verse goes a step further saying Jesus is the "firstborn over all creation". Why are the authors of the NT using words that suggest Jesus is non-eternal? Words like Begotten/firstborn.
Begotten means he is not created but rather comes forth from God. Look at what Paul says even when using the word begotten.Begotten (Past Participle of Beget) - Meaning to be the cause of something or to father a child (Archaic usage)
I think the language states clearly that he is the creator.I would not suggest Jesus is physically God's son in the same sense a humans father children. But the language used suggests Jesus to be non-eternal. Why do this? As if the concept of the Trinity is not confusing enough already...
Mary was chosen by God to bear the Son and is honored above all other women in accordance with the scriptures. Some Christians like to ignore this and to denigrate her. You will have to ask them why?Also, I know some Christians place more emphasizes on Mary, the mother of Christ, than others do. Was Mary just a regular human woman? Nothing special about her? Maybe she was more righteous than others?
And thank you for being so polite and respectful. More excellant questions!Thanks for your answers. I have yet another question related to the highlighted portion of your answers.
How does including a Fully Human/Fully God person into the Godhead mitigate this tendency? I have seen some Christian responses that, in my opinion, push the envelope of this topic a little too far, effectively humanizing God.
Maybe some are confused. Jesus has had a body since birth and still does today. So the Jesus we worship is still both God and Man, He has a Body. And for some of us, that Body is very real and very much present with us in and as part of our Worship.Although maybe they are confused or maybe I misunderstood them. Jesus was a historical person. Would I be correct in saying Christians worship Jesus in Spirit? Not Jesus in person (Body)?
No for the reason just given.humblemuslim said:DrBubbaLove: The statement "He willingly became a human being on our behalf" appears to be a humanization of God, directly. Agreed? Disagreed? So do you still believe this concept mitigates this tendency?
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