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There is no 7 years after the 2nd coming. He returns after the tribulation and never leaves again.
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I don't see why not, seeing He first returns for the saints in the air, and then 7 yrs later He returns with the saints all the way to the ground to set up his millennial kingdom after the Tribulation is over.
Again, this is confusing semantics. I didn't say the 7 yrs was after the second coming, for it is after the rapture, then 7 yrs of Tribulation, and then what is commonly referred to as "the second coming" where Jesus comes WITH the saints, not for the saints as He does at the Rapture.There is no 7 years after the 2nd coming. He returns after the tribulation and never leaves again.
Again, this is confusing semantics. I didn't say the 7 yrs was after the second coming, for it is after the rapture, then 7 yrs of Tribulation, and then what is commonly referred to as "the second coming" where Jesus comes WITH the saints, not for the saints as He does at the Rapture.
I disagree on your statements, even though you think stating them make them true. You are also using "circular reasoning", the classic example of which is "If the rock is millions of years old, than the bone next to it is also millions of years old, and if the bone is millions of years old, than we know the rock next to it is millions of years old."There is no pre-trib rapture so the return with the saints is also when Christ raptures the living saints. It's all the same day.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Context is the second coming!
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Context is the second coming!
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
This is the second coming!
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul!
So, the proper order of events according to scripture:
1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30
I disagree on your statements, even though you think stating them make them true.
Ok now along with Pre-Trib and Post-Trib, we have thrown into the mix the "Mid-Trib" doctrine. Isn't this fun???The "Second Coming" Doctrine is important.
It matters because Jesus the God-Man PROMISED to return!
The Second Coming is a central theme in the "WE BELIEVES"...of the Apostles / Nicene Creed.
It is primarily described in Revelation 19:11-16; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; Matthew 24: 29-31
PRECIOUS PROMISES:
John 14...Jesus' promises to his followers...The Upper Room Discourse....Jesus Comforts His Disciples
1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled.
Trust in God; trust also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you.
I am going there to prepare a place for you. (lots of room in heaven for believers!!)
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will COME BACK (Second Coming!)
and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
4 You know the way to the place where I am going." (Jesus ....the Way to the Father)
Matthew 16:27 (NASB)...Jesus: Discipleship Is Costly
(PROPHECY)
For the Son of Man is going to come (AGAIN!)
in the glory of His Father with His angels, and
WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.
Matthew 24: 42,44...Jesus promises to His Followers:
..."keep watch"...So you also must be "ready", because the Son of Man will come (BACK!) at an hour when you do not expect him.
Acts 1: 6-11...Angels' prophecy at The "Ascension"
9 After he said this, he was TAKEN UP before their very eyes, and a CLOUD hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the SKY as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white (angels) stood beside them.
11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the SKY?
This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into HEAVEN, will COME BACK in the same way you have (just) seen him go into HEAVEN."
1 Thessalonians 3:...in holiness before our God and Father at the (Second) coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
2 Thessalonians 1:7
and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.
The Rapture..."rapturo... (the snatching) is defined as that moment when Jesus the Christ returns from Heaven to remove the "Church" / His "Bride" / All Believers, dead ..then living... in Christ/ from Planet Earth. God the Holy Spirit will no longer restrain the Man of Lawlessness", the "end times" / terrible "the day of the LORD". ( 2 Peter 3)
Believers who have died will have their bodies resurrected and, along with believers who are still living, will meet the Lord in the air.
This will all occur in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.
The Rapture doctrine arises from interpretations of primarily 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.
The "Second Coming" BEGINS at "end" of the Rapture event!
To the Church in Philadelphia:
Revelations 3:10...
...I will also keep you from the "hour of trial" that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11 I am coming soon.
1 Thessalonians 1:10
10 and to wait for his Son from heaven,
whom he raised from the dead—Jesus,
who rescues us from the coming wrath...
Possible Time Line BUILT on Matthew 24:
1. Begin the birth of the "Church Age" of Grace...Pentecost...Acts 1 + 2
2. Jesus promises to be with us in Spirit until the "end of the age" Matthew 28 end
...ascends/descends from the "Mount of Olives"...Matt 20:20; Zechariah 14:4; Acts 1:11
3. Pre-Tribulation "Birth Pangs"...NOW!...Matthew 24: 4-8
4. Begin TRIBULATION...first 3.5 years of Daniel's 7 years...rise of the anti-christ + REBUILD the TEMPLE! = his appearance in that TEMPLE...Matthew 24:9-20,22
...WHEN it begins? TIME Unknown! (only the Father!)
5. Rapture and Second Coming...finally to a throne in Jerusalem as King of Kings . Revelation 20:6
6. Begin GREAT TRIBULATION...Last 3.5 years of Daniel's 7 years...leading up to Armageddon...
Matthew 24:21-27
7. Begin the Millenium Reign...Satan Bound...Revelation 20
8. Planet Earth and unsaved inhabitants / all else destroyed by fire. 2 Peter 3
9. New Heavens + New Earth + New Jerusalem = eternal spiritual realm...Revelation 21
As I said, it can mean many things including the sky. I know this I have studied this Greek word. Please try to make your responses more substantive so they help the discussion rather than be hollow and petty.
G3772
οὐρανός
ouranos
Thayer Definition:
1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
1a) the universe, the world
1b) the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
1c) the sidereal or starry heavens
2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky
Citing in TDNT: 5:497, 736
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
By "nice try" I meant it's quite obvious what heaven John was talking about. Christ isn't on earth when this heaven opens.
Of course. Jesus brings the spirits of them that have already died with Him to be joined with their bodies at the resurrection at the time of the rapture. He arives in the clouds like He ascended in the book of Acts. No standing on the Mount of Olives...that comes later in Rev.
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