Derive a sense of timing from the structure of Revelation

[iamlamad]

Let's work on these questions. In Matt 24 we see where the tribulation is over. We also see Christ coming.

1st question...........Is this coming of Christ the same as Rev 19 when Christ returns to set up his kingdom.

2nd question..........We see 2 in the field etc etc.....one taken, one left. Is the one that is taken the good.......or is the one that is taken evil.

Christ's coming in Matthew 24 is shown in detail in Rev. 19: same coming.

Luke tells us that when one is taken and one left, there is dead carcasses left for vultures to feed on. I would not wish to be "taken" then!

However, I think this is a moot point, because this is not Paul's rapture, or have anything to do with chronology: I see this story in Luke as the parable of the tares taking place.

HOWEVER, when Paul's rapture takes place, "one will be taken and one left."

LAMAD

 

[Choose Wisely]

Let's work on these questions. In Matt 24 we see where the tribulation is over. We also see Christ coming.

1st question...........Is this coming of Christ the same as Rev 19 when Christ returns to set up his kingdom.

2nd question..........We see 2 in the field etc etc.....one taken, one left. Is the one that is taken the good.......or is the one that is taken evil.

Christ's coming in Matthew 24 is shown in detail in Rev. 19: same coming.

Luke tells us that when one is taken and one left, there is dead carcasses left for vultures to feed on. I would not wish to be "taken" then!

However, I think this is a moot point, because this is not Paul's rapture, or have anything to do with chronology: I see this story in Luke as the parable of the tares taking place.

HOWEVER, when Paul's rapture takes place, "one will be taken and one left."

LAMAD

Did not ask you about Luke or Paul. I asked you in Matt..... is the one taken good or evil?

 

[iamlamad]

Choose Wisely wrote,
Lamad wrote:

Then the Day begins with the trumpet judgments and continues on through Revelation. The 70th week begins at the same time, with the 7th seal.
​

The 70 week is over.........before the day of the Lord begins. The wrath of God is not the time of Jacobs trouble......the tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble. You might want to find out what that great multitude is in Rev 7.

You will find this impossible to prove. Consider Rev. 14. What is happening on earth at this time? What do we read?

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,

It should go without saying that this warning will come BEFORE the mark is set up. I hope you understand it is the mark and enforced worship of the mark and the image upon threat of death that CAUSES days of great tribulation. So at this time, the mark is JUST ABOUT to be enforced upon the threat of death. Proof:

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

It will be THESE EVENTS that cause the days of Great tribulation. Please note that chapters 13 & 14 come AFTER the midpoint of the week as seen in chapter 11 & 12. Please note this is also after Satan has been cast down and is VERY angry. Satan will be behind the image and the mark.

NOW, at this time on earth, days of GT come:

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Please take note, these "saints" are NOT the church or the Bride of Christ that was removed before this time. The point here is the days of GREAT TRIBULATION are going on AT THIS TIME....end of chapter 14.

What follows in chapter 14, the harvest with the sickle, is written as PROPHECY to cover the rest of the 70th week: the harvest of the righteous will be as each saint is put to death by the BEAST. The harvest of the wicked will be at the battle of Armageddon.

So what is happening on earth at this time, chapters 14 & 15, will be days of GREAT TRIBULATION, with Satan's WRATH behind it.

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

AGain take note: this is AT THE SAME TIME Satan's wrath is being poured out in days of GT.

15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

This is in heaven: it is a scene of those KILLED by the Beast during days of GT on earth.

15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Here the angels with the plagues and vials are just about to begin pouring them out. Notice that Days of GT are STILL TAKING PLACE on earth. NOTHING has yet come from heaven to SHORTEN those days of GT.

16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Notice, days of GT are STILL HAPPENING on earth, but the vials are about to be poured out. Satan's wrath is behind every martyr losing their head.

Rev. 16 then, is the vials being poured out, filled with God's wrath. Note that NOTHING says God's wrath BEGINS with the vials; rather, the vials are a continuation of His wrath that began with the first trumpet.

John is PERFECT in His chronology here: from the description of the two beasts and what they WILL do, to the warning from God NOT to take the mark, to the mark being established and enforced and saints being put to death, to the vials being poured out to SHORTEN those days of GT. Of course all this will being AFTER the midpoint of the week as seen in chapters 11 & 12.

What have we seen in these scriptures? It is the time of Jacob's trouble: the BEAST wants to kill them all. He, like Nebuchadnezzar, wants to see them BOW to his image. PROOF:

12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

WHO is the woman? Of course the nation that brought forth the Messiah: ISRAEL.

WHERE will the BEAST BE during the days of GT? Of course, JERUSALEM:

11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

This is the man of sin (who will turn BEAST) arriving in Jerusalem. Make no mistake, this is the time of JACOB's TROUBLE. Jacob had to work an EXTRA 7 years for the woman He loved. The 70th week will be 7 years. The 70th week IS the time of Jacob's trouble.

The time of Jacob's trouble is CLEARLY laid out in chapters 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16.

Revelation 16:10
And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

WHERE is this vial poured out? It will be in JERUSALEM, for that is where the Beast will be reigning from. This IS Jacob's trouble, and it is found in Revelation from the 7th seal to the 7th vial. But in particular, the worst "trouble" will be in chapters 15 and 16.

What is happening then? Days of Great tribulation while AT THE SAME TIME the vials of God's wrath. This is cut and dried. There is no way around it: God's wrath, which by definition is a part of the DAY OF THE LORD, is happening during the 70th week. His wrath then, has been from the first trumpet to the last vial. It is the 70th week and at the same time it is the DAy of the Lord. Actually, the 70th week is INSIDE the Day of the Lord.

Notice that John wrote of the SIGNS in the sun and moon just before the DAY as seen at the 6th seal. The DAY then begins after this at the 7th seal (the official notice in heaven of the start of the Week and the Day) and with the first trumpet judgment. Again, there can be no way around it: the first trumpet judgment is the FIRST VOLLEY of the DAy of the Lord. And that DAY will continue through all the trumpet judgments. Neither does it end with the trumpets, but CONTINUES on through the vials. Neither does it end with the vials, it CONTINUES ON through Jesus coming and on into the 1000 year reign of Christ.

AT THE SAME TIME, the 70th week takes place, MARKED by the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial.

Therefore, I find this statement:

The 70 week is over.........before the day of the Lord begins.

TOTALLY against the truth of scripture.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Did not ask you about Luke or Paul. I asked you in Matt..... is the one taken good or evil?

And I answered that the COMPANION verse in Luke shows that the one taken is taken as a TARE as in the parable of the tares.

I picture it as an angel snatching the spirit right out of a person, and the body falls dead. The spirit is then thrown straight into hell.

Of course Matthew does not show this. In Matthew we get no hint of destruction for the one taken.

I will not take a verse (such as the one in Matthew) as a private interpretation. I think Luke 17 and Matt. 24 MUST be taken together. Both speak of the day of Christ's coming as lightning. Both speak of the days of Noah. The words about the two women together grinding at the mill are almost word for word in each passage.

I have heard arguments about the Greek word, "Paralambano" stating that this must be the rapture, where God receives one unto himself, yet I find the same word in Luke.

I conclude that the one taken in either case is evil. It is at the time of Christ's return. It is at the time He sends out angels. I believe it is the parable of the tares where angels are sent to gather the lawless people.

Lamad

 

[Choose Wisely]

And I answered that the COMPANION verse in Luke shows that the one taken is taken as a TARE as in the parable of the tares.

I picture it as an angel snatching the spirit right out of a person, and the body falls dead. The spirit is then thrown straight into hell.

Of course Matthew does not show this. In Matthew we get no hint of destruction for the one taken.

I will not take a verse (such as the one in Matthew) as a private interpretation. I think Luke 17 and Matt. 24 MUST be taken together. Both speak of the day of Christ's coming as lightning. Both speak of the days of Noah. The words about the two women together grinding at the mill are almost word for word in each passage.

I have heard arguments about the Greek word, "Paralambano" stating that this must be the rapture, where God receives one unto himself, yet I find the same word in Luke.

I conclude that the one taken in either case is evil. It is at the time of Christ's return. It is at the time He sends out angels. I believe it is the parable of the tares where angels are sent to gather the lawless people.

Lamad

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


So you think the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is Rev 19. Got lots of problems there. I don't see any white horses or any of the event of Rev 19 happening.

What I do see is one taken and one left. You might look to Rev 14 if you want to know what is happening in Matt 24. The ones taken are removed from the earth. The ones left are tossed into the wrath of God.

 

[tranquil]

I think your imagination is running wild.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.


Most people understand that "the time of the end" is in reference to the END of the Greecian empire, which is EXACTLY what this angel says. You cannot pull one verse out of context. The context is the Ram of media and Persia and the Goat of Greece.

IN CONTEXT the Angel was talking about the terrible things that Antiochus would do, and the 2300 days to finally cleanse the temple. So the "end" spoken of would be the END of Antiochus.

Daniel said, "I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man."

WHAT vision? The vision of the Ram and the goat. So Daniel was seeking the meaning of THAT VISION. And that is exactly what the Angel gave him.

Sorry, your imagination did not help you here.

LAMAD

You are actively trying to confuse people. I'm not pulling anything out of context....

Sweep this under the rug: Dan 2

28But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.


[...]




37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

-The "lion w/ eagle wings" is Babylon, the head of gold. (UK/ USA)
-The "bear" is the chest of silver. The bear attacks the lion/ eagle wings. (Russia)
-The 4 headed Leopard is given dominion belly of brass is given dominion. (EU in 4 parts)
-The 4th beast/ legs of iron (seems to be the US with 10 FEMA states; or US ruling the world in 10 sections - US is the new Rome, both have eagles as symbols)
-11th horn comes up at the same time as the 10 horns are coming up - New Antiochus comes out of the 4 headed Leopard

 

[Choose Wisely]

iamlamad;65135537]

You will find this impossible to prove. Consider Rev. 14. What is happening on earth at this time? What do we read?
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9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,

It should go without saying that this warning will come BEFORE the mark is set up. I hope you understand it is the mark and enforced worship of the mark and the image upon threat of death that CAUSES days of great tribulation. So at this time, the mark is JUST ABOUT to be enforced upon the threat of death. Proof:

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

It will be THESE EVENTS that cause the days of Great tribulation. Please note that chapters 13 & 14 come AFTER the midpoint of the week as seen in chapter 11 & 12. Please note this is also after Satan has been cast down and is VERY angry. Satan will be behind the image and the mark.

NOW, at this time on earth, days of GT come:

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

All this happens before the wrath of God.........That old 6th seal.

Please take note, these "saints" are NOT the church or the Bride of Christ that was removed before this time. The point here is the days of GREAT TRIBULATION are going on AT THIS TIME....end of chapter 14.

Yes, they are not the church......church is gone pretrib. You might want to put Rev 14 before the wrath of God begins which we can prove by the end of rev 14 and the six seal.

What follows in chapter 14, the harvest with the sickle, is written as PROPHECY to cover the rest of the 70th week: the harvest of the righteous will be as each saint is put to death by the BEAST.

Which occurs before the 6th seal.......when the wrath of God begins. Proved by the harvest of the grapes being tossed into the wrath of God.

The harvest of the wicked will be at the battle of Armageddon.

The harvest will occur when the wicked is tossed into the wrath of God.

So what is happening on earth at this time, chapters 14 & 15, will be days of GREAT TRIBULATION, with Satan's WRATH behind it.

Great.....agreed.......BEFORE THE 6TH SEAL.

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

AGain take note: this is AT THE SAME TIME Satan's wrath is being poured out in days of GT.

The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.
Matt 24
Immediately after the tribulation of those days.......
They will see the son of man coming in the clouds
The angels will gather..........one taken one left.

This would be Rev 14 not Rev 19 as most people think.

15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

This is in heaven: it is a scene of those KILLED by the Beast during days of GT on earth.

Exactly.......Rev 15:1.....angels with wrath of God for those left on earth
Rev 15:2 The ones taken are in heaven.
What could be more clear.

15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Here the angels with the plagues and vials are just about to begin pouring them out. Notice that Days of GT are STILL TAKING PLACE on earth. NOTHING has yet come from heaven to SHORTEN those days of GT.

16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Notice, days of GT are STILL HAPPENING on earth, but the vials are about to be poured out. Satan's wrath is behind every martyr losing their head.

The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Rev 15:1 angels with wrath for those grapes tossed into the wrath of God. Rev 15:2 Multitude in heaven for those that were taken.

Rev. 16 then, is the vials being poured out, filled with God's wrath. Note that NOTHING says God's wrath BEGINS with the vials; rather, the vials are a continuation of His wrath that began with the first trumpet.

John is PERFECT in His chronology here: from the description of the two beasts and what they WILL do, to the warning from God NOT to take the mark, to the mark being established and enforced and saints being put to death, to the vials being poured out to SHORTEN those days of GT. Of course all this will being AFTER the midpoint of the week as seen in chapters 11 & 12.

Tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins. Rev 15:1 angels with wrath for those tossed into wrath. Rev 15:2 Multitude in heaven for those taken. Perfect chronology

What have we seen in these scriptures? It is the time of Jacob's trouble: the BEAST wants to kill them all. He, like Nebuchadnezzar, wants to see them BOW to his image. PROOF:

This is the man of sin (who will turn BEAST) arriving in Jerusalem. Make no mistake, this is the time of JACOB's TROUBLE. Jacob had to work an EXTRA 7 years for the woman He loved. The 70th week will be 7 years. The 70th week IS the time of Jacob's trouble.

The time of Jacob's trouble is CLEARLY laid out in chapters 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16.

agree, agree, agree, agree. Problem is the 70 weeks are over when the tribulation is over. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

Revelation 16:10
And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

WHERE is this vial poured out? It will be in JERUSALEM, for that is where the Beast will be reigning from. This IS Jacob's trouble, and it is found in Revelation from the 7th seal to the 7th vial. But in particular, the worst "trouble" will be in chapters 15 and 16.

What is happening then? Days of Great tribulation while AT THE SAME TIME the vials of God's wrath. This is cut and dried. There is no way around it: God's wrath, which by definition is a part of the DAY OF THE LORD, is happening during the 70th week. His wrath then, has been from the first trumpet to the last vial. It is the 70th week and at the same time it is the DAy of the Lord. Actually, the 70th week is INSIDE the Day of the Lord.

The 70th week and tribulation is over before the wrath of God. Who are the people in Rev 15:2. They are the ones that are taken.

Notice that John wrote of the SIGNS in the sun and moon just before the DAY as seen at the 6th seal. The DAY then begins after this at the 7th seal (the official notice in heaven of the start of the Week and the Day) and with the first trumpet judgment. Again, there can be no way around it: the first trumpet judgment is the FIRST VOLLEY of the DAy of the Lord. And that DAY will continue through all the trumpet judgments. Neither does it end with the trumpets, but CONTINUES on through the vials. Neither does it end with the vials, it CONTINUES ON through Jesus coming and on into the 1000 year reign of Christ.

trumpets and vials occur during the same time frame. See 7th trumpet.

AT THE SAME TIME, the 70th week takes place, MARKED by the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial.

Therefore, I find this statement:

The 70 week is over.........before the day of the Lord begins.

TOTALLY against the truth of scripture.

LAMAD

Well, you better get back to Matt 24 and figure out why this is Rev 14 and not Rev 19 as most think. Some taken and some left. Doesn't sound like Rev 19 when Christ comes with his army.

Your problem is that I understand what you understand, because it is commonly taught. I also understand why those pieces don't fit together.

 

[tranquil]

The "Day of the Lord" is a year (or possibly 1 year and 1 day):

For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. Isa 34:8

God's wrath is the "Lord's vengeance":

19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it[i] to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” Romans 12:19

So, the bowls last a year.

At Seal 4, Death and Hades given dominion (7 year covenant starts before Mystery Babylon is destroyed.)

Trumpets 1-5: Destruction of Mystery Babylon (the lion w/ eagle wings/ UK/ USA) by the "hail and fire" of an imposter Christ. 150 days (1st woe)

Trumpet 6: 396 days of wars that ultimately bring the same or another imposter Christ to power, the "people of the prince to come"/ the "flood" of armies from Dan 9 that arrive to take over Jerusalem. 396 days (1 year, 1 month, 1 day, 1 hour) (start of 2nd woe)

(Placement of the abomination of desolation 3.5 years after the 7 year covenant starts.)

Then the 1260 days of the beast, then 3.5 days. That ends the 2nd woe.

The 3rd woe would be Dan 9's 70 weeks/ 490 days (which all added together is Dan 8's 2300 days). Dan 9s' 70 weeks is segmented into 7 weeks, 62 weeks, 69 weeks, and 70 weeks; or 49 days/ 385 days/ 49 days/ 7 days. The "year of recompense" is that 385 day segment, apparently a Jewish Leap year, a year with 13 months.

 

[iamlamad]

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


So you think the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is Rev 19. Got lots of problems there. I don't see any white horses or any of the event of Rev 19 happening.

What I do see is one taken and one left. You might look to Rev 14 if you want to know what is happening in Matt 24. The ones taken are removed from the earth. The ones left are tossed into the wrath of God.

Matt. 24 is a view of the end as through a telescope. With a telescope, all one sees is the mountain peaks - cannot see the valleys inbetween. SO WHAT if Jesus did not mention white horses: John did, same timing (after the days of great tribulation) and same coming.

Do you really think Jesus will harvest the righteous with a sickle? Did you notice that Matthew has something very close to what Luke says about the vultures?

Matthew:24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Luke 17:
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Please note WHEN this happens: it is the moment that Jesus splits the sky like a lightning bolt on His descent.

It is impossible to tell when the Day of the Lord begins from Matthew or Luke: that information is simply not there. What we can tell is that this event of one taken and one left happens WHEN JESUS RETURNS, as seen in Rev. 19, NOT when He is sitting on a cloud in heaven, near the MIDPOINT of the week. From the rest of scripture, we can tell exactly when the Day of the Lord starts: AT the 7th seal, and WITH the first trumpet judgment.

As hard as you try to rearrange, this starting of the Day of the Lord is also the starting of the 70th week: they start together and run concurrently. Do you just overlook the 5 times in Rev. 11 through 13 that John mentions the last half of the week; given in days, months and years? That should be conclusive proof to you that the last half of the 70th week is from chapter 11 (42 months of trampling and 1260 days of testifying) on to chapter 16? John proves this FIVE DIFFERENT TIMES!

All your attempts to rearrange Revelation are failures. The reason is very simple, Revelation is written in the exact order these events will happen. It will be impossible to prove something different by other scriptures.

The highly symbolic harvests that takes place in Rev. 14 are prophecies of future events. The ONLY people that are risen at the midpoint are the 144,000. They are seen in the first part of chapter 14.

Let's imagine your theory for a moment: at the midpoint of the week (chapter 14) suppose God would "harvest" all the righteous.So all the righteous are changed to resurrection bodies in chapter 14, at the midpoint of the week, just before the worship of the mark and the image is enforced. If all the righteous are "harvested" at that moment, then there will be NO SAINTS BEHEADED during the coming days of great tribulation, because there would be none left on earth - since they would all have been previously harvested. In fact, how could there days be great tribulation if only sinners are left on the earth? No one will be hunting down sinners, for they will gladly take the mark. Oh, wait! You want the harvest of the sinners also at the midpoint. So now you have NO ONE to do the beheading! In fact, why wouldn't the beast himself be harvested? So in your theory the last half of the week will be a cakewalk: no sinners and no saints left, except maybe the beast himself.

No, the ONLY sane conclusion is that this harvest shown in Rev. 14 is as a prophecy of the future.

Now let's compare:

Mat. 24:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Now Revelation:
Rev. 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Rev. 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Rev. 16:17The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air. Then a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne. It said, “It is finished!”

Rev. 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations.

In Matthew 24, Jesus said "for then shall be great tribulation." Then, AFTER the days of great tribulation, Jesus would come, first seen as lightning flashes across the sky. The point is, HE COMES and all SEE Him.

Revelation gives us the same story but with more detail. First a blessing is pronounced over those that die during the days of GT. Then comes days of Great Tribulation where untold millions will lose their heads. Then John sees many of them in heaven, having been put to death by the Beast. Finally in 16:17 John declares that the 70th week, the time of Jacob's trouble IS FINISHED. DONE. COMPLETE. So the next thing in Revelation will be "AFTER the tribulation of those days..." Then in Rev. 19 we see Jesus returning to earth, after being absent for approximately 2000 years.

If you cannot see the parallel of Rev. and Matthew 24, I guess there is little help for you. They both tell the same story. Jesus is a macro view, John is a micro view with all the details.


LAMAD

 

[JacobLaw]

I don't know why but I think I will post so I may be able to find this information later.

 

[Choose Wisely]

iamlamad;65138835]

If you cannot see the parallel of Rev. and Matthew 24, I guess there is little help for you. They both tell the same story. Jesus is a macro view, John is a micro view with all the details.


LAMAD

Got you stumped huh? You really have no answer regarding the people taken and people left behind in Matt 24. So you think you'd want to be left behind if you were on earth at this time. Well, the people being left behind here are cast into the wrath of God. That is not Rev 19 when Jesus and his army come on white horses.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad;65138835]

Got you stumped huh? You really have no answer regarding the people taken and people left behind in Matt 24. So you think you'd want to be left behind if you were on earth at this time. Well, the people being left behind here are cast into the wrath of God. That is not Rev 19 when Jesus and his army come on white horses.

The truth is, the Bride of Christ WON'T BE ON THE EARTH at that time. It is very simple: Jesus comes to the clouds as in 1 Thes. 4, BEFORE the entire 70th week. That would be after the 5th seal and before the 6th seal, or as the first event of the 6th seal. You have already agreed that the Day of the Lord starts right where John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come." Of course the Bride of Christ will be removed before that time. Paul confirms this in his rapture passage: "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation..."

Therefore the people taken and the people left behind will be related to those left on the earth after the 70th week has finished, just before Jesus returns, as John shows us, on a white horse. AT this time, the Bride of Christ will have spent the previous 7 plus years IN HEAVEN, and just before Jesus gets on His white horse, will be enjoying the marriage and supper in heaven. The bride will then come back to earth WITH Christ. So when "one is taken and one is left" the Bride of Christ will be right there to SEE IT ALL.

Since you will believe none of this, please, go ahead and enlighten us! Tell us what YOU believe takes place when the sickle is swung to reap in Rev. 14 and how this compares with "one taken and one left" in Matthew.

I already know your theory will be full of holes. Those alive on the earth when the sickle is swung will have ALREADY BEEN in the wrath of God during the trumpet judgments. You suppose that this sweeping of the sickle to harvest is "one taken and one left" as seen in Matthew. This is MILES OFF from the intent of the Author.

Let's establish the TIMING of this event.

Rev. 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

This is God's WARNING for people of earth about the MARK. Therefore, this warning will be given VERY SHORTLY AFTER the midpoint of the week, and before all will be FORCED to take the mark, upon threat of death.

What is this telling us? It is telling us that the days of GREAT TRIBULATION are STILL IN THE FUTURE. In other words, it is simply IMPOSSIBLE for this to be the timing given in Matthew 24 when "one is taken and one is left" which will be AFTER the days of great tribulation.

Your ONLY way around this truth is to rip Revelation apart and tell us that the part of the harvest on the clouds is OUT OF SEQUENCE. I guess this is what you have been failing to prove all along.

The truth is, this event of "one taken and one left" will be AS JESUS IS DESCENDING.

Mat. 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Why not say that the "one taken and one left" is Jesus taking His elect? That fits the TIMING, as Jesus is descending. It will be HIS ELECT taken.

Luke gives us a different idea:

Luk. 17

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Luke tells us "in the night" two will be in the bed, and one is taken, while it must be "in the day" that two are grinding and two are in the fields. So will this "one taken and one left" take some extended time of several hours?

Could it be that at the same time angels are gathering together His elect (the Jews and Hebrews gathered from both heaven and earth) that other angels will be performing the parable of the tares?

Mat. 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Does this sound like one might be taken and one left? It certainly could be. Does it seem to fit the same timing as Jesus return to earth? I think so. If you noticed, Matthew does not include two sleeping in the bed together, in the night. In the Matthew scenario, it is daytime.

LAMAD

 

[Choose Wisely]

iamlamad;65141762]

The truth is, the Bride of Christ WON'T BE ON THE EARTH at that time. It is very simple: Jesus comes to the clouds as in 1 Thes. 4, BEFORE the entire 70th week. That would be after the 5th seal and before the 6th seal, or as the first event of the 6th seal. You have already agreed that the Day of the Lord starts right where John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come." Of course the Bride of Christ will be removed before that time. Paul confirms this in his rapture passage: "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to Tobtain salvation..."

Therefore the people taken and the people left behind will be related to those left on the earth after the 70th week has finished, just before Jesus returns, as John shows us, on a white horse. AT this time, the Bride of Christ will have spent the previous 7 plus years IN HEAVEN, and just before Jesus gets on His white horse, will be enjoying the marriage and supper in heaven. The bride will then come back to earth WITH Christ. So when "one is taken and one is left" the Bride of Christ will be right there to SEE IT ALL.

Since you will believe none of this, please, go ahead and enlighten us! Tell us what YOU believe takes place when the sickle is swung to reap in Rev. 14 and how this compares with "one taken and one left" in Matthew.

Just like the Bible says. The ones taken go to heaven. The ones left are cast into the wrath of God.

I already know your theory will be full of holes. Those alive on the earth when the sickle is swung will have ALREADY BEEN in the wrath of God during the trumpet judgments. You suppose that this sweeping of the sickle to harvest is "one taken and one left" as seen in Matthew. This is MILES OFF from the intent of the Author.

Problem is, you really don't know what I think and why. I already know what you think because it is commonly taught, and I know it's full of holes.

Let's establish the TIMING of this event.

Rev. 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

This is God's WARNING for people of earth about the MARK. Therefore, this warning will be given VERY SHORTLY AFTER the midpoint of the week, and before all will be FORCED to take the mark, upon threat of death.

What is this telling us? It is telling us that the days of GREAT TRIBULATION are STILL IN THE FUTURE. In other words, it is simply IMPOSSIBLE for this to be the timing given in Matthew 24 when "one is taken and one is left" which will be AFTER the days of great tribulation.

Your ONLY way around this truth is to rip Revelation apart and tell us that the part of the harvest on the clouds is OUT OF SEQUENCE. I guess this is what you have been failing to prove all along.

It's pretty simple. The things that happen during the tribulation, you put in the tribulation. The things that happen before the wrath of God, you put before the wrath of God.

The truth is, this event of "one taken and one left" will be AS JESUS IS DESCENDING.

Mat. 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You see Jesus descending, I see him in the clouds.

Why not say that the "one taken and one left" is Jesus taking His elect? That fits the TIMING, as Jesus is descending. It will be HIS ELECT taken.
Luke gives us a different idea:

Luk. 17

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Luke tells us "in the night" two will be in the bed, and one is taken, while it must be "in the day" that two are grinding and two are in the fields. So will this "one taken and one left" take some extended time of several hours?

Could it be that at the same time angels are gathering together His elect (the Jews and Hebrews gathered from both heaven and earth) that other angels will be performing the parable of the tares?

Mat. 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Does this sound like one might be taken and one left? It certainly could be. Does it seem to fit the same timing as Jesus return to earth? I think so. If you noticed, Matthew does not include two sleeping in the bed together, in the night. In the Matthew scenario, it is daytime.

The tares are burned is at the end of the 1000 yr reign

 

[parousia70]

iamlamad;65138835]


Got you stumped huh? You really have no answer regarding the people taken and people left behind in Matt 24.

Lets look at the scripture:

Matt 24:38-41

38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

Looks to me, as in the days of Noah, (so also will the coming of the Son of Man be) - it would NOT be preferable to be the one Taken Away.

Better to be like Noah and be "Left Behind" instead of Taken Away like everyone else.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad;65141762]

Just like the Bible says. The ones taken go to heaven. The ones left are cast into the wrath of God.

So you believe that when the sickle is swung, the righteous go to heaven, as in "one taken and one left behind. Since you think this is after the tribulation, and before the Day of the Lord, then WHO are the righteous we find from Rev. 7 on to Rev. 19? In your theory, they are all gone to heaven.
Where, then, are the sinners? If they are judged and left behind, Rev. 14 shows them cast into the wine press and blood flows. In other words, those left behind are also killed. Again this will be before the Day of the Lord. So WHO will be in the Beast's armies to hunt down the missing (one taken) righteous?

If I have your timing wrong, please tell us WHEN this one take and one left will be in the narrative of Revelation.

Problem is, you really don't know what I think and why. I already know what you think because it is commonly taught, and I know it's full of holes.

You have shown nothing yet that stands up to all the end times scriptures.
If I understood you, you have the days of great tribulation before the 6th seal? Where then would that be in John's narrative? What causes this great tribulation somewhere in Rev. chapter 6? Why did John see nothing of it? I am quite sure that Rosenthal and Van Kampan put the days of GT in the very same spot, for the very same reason!

It's pretty simple. The things that happen during the tribulation, you put in the tribulation. The things that happen before the wrath of God, you put before the wrath of God.

This sounds good in theory; but in truth, the days of great tribulation will be going on AT THE SAME TIME as God's wrath. Whatever you assign to one will be in the other! Take off your preconceived glasses and study Rev. 14-16. These are most certainly days of God's wrath and they are also days of great tribulation. The beast at this time will have his mark established and will be enforcing it upon death.

I guess in your theory these chapters (since they are certainly days of GT) must take place somewhere in the seals. Sorry, John did not write it that way. These chapters, 14-16, come after the midpoint of the week, which is in chapter 11. The more I learn of your theories, the more I can understand your need to rearrange Revelation.

You see Jesus descending, I see him in the clouds.

I certainly see Him coming to the clouds of earth's atmosphere, for Paul's rapture.

The tares are burned is at the end of the 1000 yr reign

Can you find one verse, or a part of a verse that would even hint of this? I can't. In fact, can you find any hint of the 1000 year reign in the gospels?

LAMAD

P.S. I will be gone next week: church meetings in Tennessee.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Lets look at the scripture:

Matt 24:38-41

38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

Looks to me, as in the days of Noah, (so also will the coming of the Son of Man be) - it would NOT be preferable to be the one Taken Away.

Better to be like Noah and be "Left Behind" instead of Taken Away like everyone else.

Two men are standing a few hundred yards from a dam that suddenly starts breaking. One man spots a boat and gets in. Then someone yells out, don't leave me here. Who do you thing yelled out don't leave me here.....the one with the boat or the one without. I'd rather be taken away than left behind.
'

 

[Choose Wisely]

iamlamad;65145222]

So you believe that when the sickle is swung, the righteous go to heaven, as in "one taken and one left behind. Since you think this is after the tribulation, and before the Day of the Lord, then WHO are the righteous we find from Rev. 7 on to Rev. 19? In your theory, they are all gone to heaven.

The great multitude in Rev 7 are those that are taken in Rev 14.

Where, then, are the sinners? If they are judged and left behind, Rev. 14 shows them cast into the wine press and blood flows. In other words, those left behind are also killed.

No they are not killed......they go through the wrath of God

Again this will be before the Day of the Lord. So WHO will be in the Beast's armies to hunt down the missing (one taken) righteous?

Not quite following you here.

If I have your timing wrong, please tell us WHEN this one take and one left will be in the narrative of Revelation.

Matt 24's taken and left behind is Rev 14. That multitude is seen Rev 7. Rev 19 happens later and is not in Matt 24.

You have shown nothing yet that stands up to all the end times scriptures.
If I understood you, you have the days of great tribulation before the 6th seal? Where then would that be in John's narrative? What causes this great tribulation somewhere in Rev. chapter 6? Why did John see nothing of it? I am quite sure that Rosenthal and Van Kampan put the days of GT in the very same spot, for the very same reason!

They have the rapture happening pre wrath.......in the middle of the tribulation. Scripture says the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

This sounds good in theory; but in truth, the days of great tribulation will be going on AT THE SAME TIME as God's wrath. Whatever you assign to one will be in the other! Take off your preconceived glasses and study Rev. 14-16. These are most certainly days of God's wrath and they are also days of great tribulation. The beast at this time will have his mark established and will be enforcing it upon death.

Think of the character of God. The righteous will not go through the wrath. That applies to more than just those in the pre trib rapture.

I guess in your theory these chapters (since they are certainly days of GT) must take place somewhere in the seals. Sorry, John did not write it that way. These chapters, 14-16, come after the midpoint of the week, which is in chapter 11. The more I learn of your theories, the more I can understand your need to rearrange Revelation.

The righteous are not appointed to wrath. That's why we see the harvest in Rev 14 before the wrath....the righteous are taken to heaven and the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God. That's why we see the signs of the 6th seal....then the kings want hidden from the day of wrath and then we see a multitude in Rev 7. It all fits perfectly.

The common view of 7 years and then Jesus sets foot on the mount of Olives is just wrong. It should be 7 years and then a harvest and then the wrath of God........after the 7 years.

More proof of that would be.........KINGDOMS........five have fallen, one is and one is yet to come. And there will be an eighth and the eighth is of the seven. There is no room for any of this in the standard 7 years and then everything is peachy theory.

I certainly see Him coming to the clouds of earth's atmosphere, for Paul's rapture.

Yep, but every eye will not see him at this rapture.

This is all going to cause you things that you don't understand

Once you line everything up, it fits perfectly. The common view does not work. The pre tribbers have no answer to Rev 14.

P.S. I will be gone next week: church meetings in Tennessee.

Hope all goes well for you brother.

 

[iamlamad]

Two men are standing a few hundred yards from a dam that suddenly starts breaking. One man spots a boat and gets in. Then someone yells out, don't leave me here. Who do you thing yelled out don't leave me here.....the one with the boat or the one without. I'd rather be taken away than left behind.
'

Ha ha ha! Choosewisely, GREAT example! If the judgment was a flood, I would want to be on a boat!

However, who was taken and who was left was not the point Jesus was making when He talked about Noah; I think His point was the SUDDENESS of what happened....when those people woke up one morning, then had no idea it was to be their last day. They had no time to do anything drown. Same with those cities Lot escaped from: when they woke up that morning, they had no idea it would be the last morning they would wake up.

LAMAD

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 72:

The truth is, the Bride of Christ WON'T BE ON THE EARTH at that time. It is very simple: Jesus comes to the clouds as in 1 Thes. 4, BEFORE the entire 70th week.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30) the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20) but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

iamlamad said in post 72:

You have already agreed that the Day of the Lord starts right where John wrote, "the day of His wrath has come."

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. the fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 72:

Therefore the people taken and the people left behind will be related to those left on the earth after the 70th week has finished, just before Jesus returns, as John shows us, on a white horse. AT this time, the Bride of Christ will have spent the previous 7 plus years IN HEAVEN, and just before Jesus gets on His white horse, will be enjoying the marriage and supper in heaven.

The 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

iamlamad said in post 72:

Therefore the people taken and the people left behind will be related to those left on the earth after the 70th week has finished, just before Jesus returns, as John shows us, on a white horse. AT this time, the Bride of Christ will have spent the previous 7 plus years IN HEAVEN, and just before Jesus gets on His white horse, will be enjoying the marriage and supper in heaven.

By "heaven" do you mean the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

iamlamad said in post 72:

The bride will then come back to earth WITH Christ.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 mean at Jesus' 2nd coming the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15) and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It's because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

iamlamad said in post 72:

Could it be that at the same time angels are gathering together His elect (the Jews and Hebrews gathered from both heaven and earth) that other angels will be performing the parable of the tares?

Regarding the tares, in Matthew 13:38 the good seed are the elect and the tares are the nonelect, the human children of Satan, who can't ever believe in Jesus (John 8:42-47). Matthew 13:40-42 refers to the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43 the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment when a new earth (i.e. a new surface of the earth) will be created and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

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iamlamad said in post 75:

These chapters, 14-16, come after the midpoint of the week, which is in chapter 11.

Revelation chapters 11 to 14 show from 4 different angles the same future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), which will occur after Revelation chapters 6 to 10 and before Revelation chapters 15 to 21, and which will legally end at the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15).

That is, Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the world's armies (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3) and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected or changed church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.