Denying Self?

[heirmiles]

Okay, bit of a difficult question.

A lot of people (including myself) who live with schizophrenia or
schizo-affective disorders work long and hard to establish a personal
identity. The usual 'theological' response to the 'self' or individual
personhood (one's identity), is that it is by nature sinful, and outside
of Christ completely depraved (i.e. unjustifiable before God). Christ
tells us that if we wish to be His disciples we are to deny "ourselves"
and take up the cross, and follow Him.

So in the case of a person who is barely holding on to the concept of
self or any form of personal awareness, in discipleship, should he deny
(disallow) whatever that concept of personhood is, in the process of that
denial.

Of course the usual understanding of self-denial is based upon people with
'huge' self-identity concepts, (therefore the need of humility etc.), in
allowing Jesus to become their "all in all", through a variety of
spiritual disciplines while "out-living" the work of Christ's salvation.

In other words, focusing so completely on Christ that personal wants and
desires are seen and understood only in the light and life of Christ.
Hence the goal is to be completely aware of being completely in Christ.

Maybe I have already answered my own question, though I may perceive
this in my "controlled" thoughts yet the illness may rather focus only on
personal annihilation of "self", or personal identity, without
understanding the fulness of Christ.

My question for us 'contemplatives' is how do you not lose your
awareness, personal and otherwise, while still losing (denying) that
which is not Christ?

 

[heirmiles]

What I'm asking relates to the Theo/anthropological relationship in that through regeneration of the Holy Spirit in Christ we are within His covenant relationship, and yet while called to be Holy in this relationship there are always internal personal issues which may experientially contradict this relationship. The human aspect continually desires the divine, and yet parts of him desires that which is not (or opposite) the divine.
Is this contradiction in human experience something which relates to the experience of one's identity as some thing different to the experience of the soul and/or spirit? In other words, is the soul separate from the mind and perception of an individual or is it an integral part (or aspect) of one's "psuxei" (translated soul, illiterated in english as "psyche")?

 

[Faith.Man]

What I'm asking relates to the Theo/anthropological relationship in that through regeneration of the Holy Spirit in Christ we are within His covenant relationship, and yet while called to be Holy in this relationship there are always internal personal issues which may experientially contradict this relationship. The human aspect continually desires the divine, and yet parts of him desires that which is not (or opposite) the divine.
Is this contradiction in human experience something which relates to the experience of one's identity as some thing different to the experience of the soul and/or spirit? In other words, is the soul separate from the mind and perception of an individual or is it an integral part (or aspect) of one's "psuxei" (translated soul, illiterated in english as "psyche")?

I believe the answer to your question relates to the meaning of "self" and how we are to deny it. But before I answer you, or at least give you my thoughts, I'd like to do some quick study on the subject and get back to you. You may have already done this, but I'd like to look into it too.

 

[twin1954]

First let me say that I certainly can't "enter into" what you are experiencing never having had the experience. But I can tell you what I know the Scriptures say in the matter of self. The natural self is sin. It is called the flesh in the Scriptures. But the believer is not a reformation of the old man but a new creation. 2Cor. 5:17 The old man is still in us and with us but we are no longer ruled by that old man. As a new creation we are a new self which after God is created in true righteousness and holiness and which is the seed of Christ in us that cannot sin. Eph. 4:24, 1John 3:9 We are made partakers of the divine nature, 2Pet. 1:4, and that new nature is Christ in us the hope of glory. Col. 1:27 Yet we are not anihilated in Christ as though we cease to be as in absorbed into Him to the point we no longer exist. We are a new creation that is part of His mystical body. We are each individual selves which make up the whole of His bride the Church. Like individual stones which make a wall we are living stones. 1Pet. 2:5 We each have our individual place and purpose. If we didn't exist the whole would not be whole. Our identity in Christ is to fill that place He has given us and serve Him in it. We cant do that if we are not ourselves. When Paul says in Gal. 2:20 that I live he is saying that he actually lives in Christ. He isn't talking about no longer being himself but that he no longer looks to himself for acceptance with God.

Denying self is not denying that we are but denying that we are worthy of anything from God. It doesn't involve the giving up of things or self sacrifice but a knowledge that in our natural man we are nothing but sin worthy of the wrath of God. Denying self isn't denying that the old nature exists but acknowledging that it is currupt. We know ourselve to be what we really are and go against all that our nature tells us that we are and take sides with God against ourselves.

Hope that helps a little.

 

[Faith.Man]

First let me say that I certainly can't "enter into" what you are experiencing never having had the experience. But I can tell you what I know the Scriptures say in the matter of self. The natural self is sin. It is called the flesh in the Scriptures. But the believer is not a reformation of the old man but a new creation. 2Cor. 5:17 The old man is still in us and with us but we are no longer ruled by that old man. As a new creation we are a new self which after God is created in true righteousness and holiness and which is the seed of Christ in us that cannot sin. Eph. 4:24, 1John 3:9 We are made partakers of the divine nature, 2Pet. 1:4, and that new nature is Christ in us the hope of glory. Col. 1:27 Yet we are not anihilated in Christ as though we cease to be as in absorbed into Him to the point we no longer exist. We are a new creation that is part of His mystical body. We are each individual selves which make up the whole of His bride the Church. Like individual stones which make a wall we are living stones. 1Pet. 2:5 We each have our individual place and purpose. If we didn't exist the whole would not be whole. Our identity in Christ is to fill that place He has given us and serve Him in it. We cant do that if we are not ourselves. When Paul says in Gal. 2:20 that I live he is saying that he actually lives in Christ. He isn't talking about no longer being himself but that he no longer looks to himself for acceptance with God.

Denying self is not denying that we are but denying that we are worthy of anything from God. It doesn't involve the giving up of things or self sacrifice but a knowledge that in our natural man we are nothing but sin worthy of the wrath of God. Denying self isn't denying that the old nature exists but acknowledging that it is currupt. We know ourselve to be what we really are and go against all that our nature tells us that we are and take sides with God against ourselves.

Hope that helps a little.

This is a very good answer. I can add little to it of any additional value.

 

[bricklayer]

Okay, bit of a difficult question.

A lot of people (including myself) who live with schizophrenia or
schizo-affective disorders work long and hard to establish a personal
identity. The usual 'theological' response to the 'self' or individual
personhood (one's identity), is that it is by nature sinful, and outside
of Christ completely depraved (i.e. unjustifiable before God). Christ
tells us that if we wish to be His disciples we are to deny "ourselves"
and take up the cross, and follow Him.

So in the case of a person who is barely holding on to the concept of
self or any form of personal awareness, in discipleship, should he deny
(disallow) whatever that concept of personhood is, in the process of that
denial.

Of course the usual understanding of self-denial is based upon people with
'huge' self-identity concepts, (therefore the need of humility etc.), in
allowing Jesus to become their "all in all", through a variety of
spiritual disciplines while "out-living" the work of Christ's salvation.

In other words, focusing so completely on Christ that personal wants and
desires are seen and understood only in the light and life of Christ.
Hence the goal is to be completely aware of being completely in Christ.

Maybe I have already answered my own question, though I may perceive
this in my "controlled" thoughts yet the illness may rather focus only on
personal annihilation of "self", or personal identity, without
understanding the fulness of Christ.

My question for us 'contemplatives' is how do you not lose your
awareness, personal and otherwise, while still losing (denying) that
which is not Christ?

Crazy 'ain't stupid.
You are very well thought out and effectively written.

A character in a book, who is enlightened by his author that he is in fact a character in a book, loses himself in his author.

A creature, who is enlightened by his Creator to the fact that he is in fact a creature, loses himself in His creator.

 

[heirmiles]

For me theologically (and philosophically) the issue (or confusion) begins with the composition of personhood. One theory is that it is bi-partate (mind and soul) and the second being tri-partate, mind, soul, and spirit.

For those who consider personhood to be bi-partate the mind is the physical constitution and the soul the spiritual. Upon regeneration the dead soul (dead in terms of separate from God) is quickened unto life by the Holy Spirit having now been reconciled by Christ unto God.

The tri-partate (e.g. Watchman Nee in "The Spiritual Man"), has the mind and soul as the "fleshy" aspects of what I understand to be personhood, and upon regeneration the spirit is created as the new creature, or new creation. Mr. Nee sees the mind and soul (as I understand his view) as that which will be done away with, when all things are made new in the new heaven and new earth.

My understanding is a mixture of both in terms of regeneration of the whole person which will be made complete upon the New Creation when it comes, but does not do away with the mind and soul which has been redeemed by Christ, both of which have been quickened unto life in Christ, as well as the spirit which was lost when Adam sinned is(was) newly created in a similar way to when God breathed into the first man the "breath (spirit) of life and man became a living soul".

I may be a little off base in this synthesis but I find such necessary because if the soul and mind eventually simply stop existing (because of their innate fleshy nature) because they are not spirit, does the psychological perception of personhood also stop existing?

 

[twin1954]

For me theologically (and philosophically) the issue (or confusion) begins with the composition of personhood. One theory is that it is bi-partate (mind and soul) and the second being tri-partate, mind, soul, and spirit.

For those who consider personhood to be bi-partate the mind is the physical constitution and the soul the spiritual. Upon regeneration the dead soul (dead in terms of separate from God) is quickened unto life by the Holy Spirit having now been reconciled by Christ unto God.

The tri-partate (e.g. Watchman Nee in "The Spiritual Man"), has the mind and soul as the "fleshy" aspects of what I understand to be personhood, and upon regeneration the spirit is created as the new creature, or new creation. Mr. Nee sees the mind and soul (as I understand his view) as that which will be done away with, when all things are made new in the new heaven and new earth.

My understanding is a mixture of both in terms of regeneration of the whole person which will be made complete upon the New Creation when it comes, but does not do away with the mind and soul which has been redeemed by Christ, both of which have been quickened unto life in Christ, as well as the spirit which was lost when Adam sinned is(was) newly created in a similar way to when God breathed into the first man the "breath (spirit) of life and man became a living soul".

I may be a little off base in this synthesis but I find such necessary because if the soul and mind eventually simply stop existing (because of their innate fleshy nature) because they are not spirit, does the psychological perception of personhood also stop existing?

In the ressurrection we recieve new bodies. This currupt flesh will be replaced with a physical body that is pure and holy. And we will still be individuals in our bodies.

 

[heirmiles]

"In the resurrection we receive new bodies. This corrupt flesh will be replaced with a physical body that is pure and holy. And we will still be individuals in our bodies."

Thank you so much for all your responses, I think for me, completely understanding an issue can be as much a lesson in learning to patiently trust God in that more understanding will come. Yet as I understand my mental health issue, as it is "generated" by physical causes, a new body therefore means that the physical bio-chemical issues will not be "not well" (or present?) in the new creation. As to the tri/bi - partate issue sometimes it can be just as rewarding to trust God in that He understands it better than I ever will (for now).

 

[twin1954]

"In the resurrection we receive new bodies. This corrupt flesh will be replaced with a physical body that is pure and holy. And we will still be individuals in our bodies."

Thank you so much for all your responses, I think for me, completely understanding an issue can be as much a lesson in learning to patiently trust God in that more understanding will come. Yet as I understand my mental health issue, as it is "generated" by physical causes, a new body therefore means that the physical bio-chemical issues will not be "not well" (or present?) in the new creation. As to the tri/bi - partate issue sometimes it can be just as rewarding to trust God in that He understands it better than I ever will (for now).

The purpose of God for His people is never easy to understand and most often harder to live through. Just as Joseph being hated by his brothers, sold into slavery and cast into prison was made to redound to the glory of God and the good of His people by making Joseph ruler over all of Egypt. I have no doubt that Joseph was puzzeled and often desperate while being a slave and in prison. But he did tell his brothers in Gen 50 that while they meant evil against him God meant it for good. We don't have to understand all that God brings us through but we are confident that He does it for good.


I hope that the Great God and our Savior the Lord Jesus Christ has used this worthless worm to help you in some way.

 

[heirmiles]

"(for now)"

"But then, will any of us understand anything as completely as God does?"
I respond to myself....

I'm sorry I'm babbling.......

 

[heirmiles]

Twin 1954,

I've reread your first response twenty times at least, and I'm still getting more out of it each time I read it. I thank you so much for the amount of effort you put into it. I'm at a point where I'm going to write out all the scripture references into my notebook and study them in context and commit them to memory.

As to us being worms, (I know there is a verse that uses that term), they (we?) are the agent of composting that makes good soil what it is, so that the seed (the Word of God) can take root and produce "much" fruit. Nothing wrong with worms.