Denominations

[Standing Up]

I'm sure you know the answer to that question.

I say that because I don't remember the Bible ever teaching the reader how to interpret it. I only remember St. Paul telling his readers to hold tightly to everything the Apostles taught them, to the traditions they received. Which is exactly what the Catholic Church has done for about 2000 years.

So you can have your man-made rules about how to interpret the Bible, but I think you'd be better off with St. Paul.

Teach the same to faithful men.

But to take an easy example, Unam Sanctum decree has changed.

 

[mont974x4]

This whole convoluted, yes-it's-clear-but-sometimes-it-isn't defense of self-interpretation sounds like an extra to me.

I say that because I don't remember the Bible ever teaching the reader how to interpret it. I only remember St. Paul telling his readers to hold tightly to everything the Apostles taught them, to the traditions they received. Which is exactly what the Catholic Church has done for about 2000 years.

So you can have your man-made rules about how to interpret the Bible, but I think you'd be better off with St. Paul.

No wonder you're confused you don't seem to even be reading my post and you seem to be forgetting a great deal of important Scriptures....which is a rc Tradition it seems. When we are told to study to show ourselves approved workmen, what do you suppose we are to study? Your denomination did not even hold to traditions of Scripture, when it was invented some 300 years after the Church was born it began inventing new ones.

Following Paul's example is wise advice, I suggest you take it yourself...read your Bible, not your sects propaganda.

 

[boswd]

This whole convoluted, yes-it's-clear-but-sometimes-it-isn't defense of self-interpretation sounds like an extra to me.

I say that because I don't remember the Bible ever teaching the reader how to interpret it. I only remember St. Paul telling his readers to hold tightly to everything the Apostles taught them, to the traditions they received. Which is exactly what the Catholic Church has done for about 2000 years.

So you can have your man-made rules about how to interpret the Bible, but I think you'd be better off with St. Paul.

somthing tells I don't think it was in Christ's plan to have every Tom Dick and Harry to start up his own Church based on their own interpretation of Scripture which ironically is very Anti Scriptural since Christ set up Leaders in which this Anti Biblical act seems to be the Evangelical way.

Look at all thsoe Non denoms starting every week it seems.

 

[Kepha]

In one of Joel Rosenberg's books I read a great response to the denomination question. One character asked something like, "why are there so many denominations? Isn't all that division bad?" The response was a comparison to the body of Christ and it's many parts found in Scripture. The idea is that like the different parts of the body the different denominations serve a different God ordained purpose.

Conflicting doctrines serve no purpose for the Body of Christ. Sounds like this Joel Resenberg is nothing but a fool to suggest this. Unless he's blind as a bat to not see the reality in the problems that all these denominations out there have caused, with the latest being the non denominational group who are each their own denomination to themselves.

“For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.”​

(2nd Corinthians 1:13-14, NIV)

For starters, your translation is far different than mine:

13 For we write no other things to you than what you have read and known. And I hope that you shall know unto the end: 14 As also you have known us in part, that we are your glory, as you also are ours, in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And secondly, you actually think He's talking to individual bible believers 2000 years later separated from the Churches they set up? What a shame. Look at the very first verse to see who He's really talking to. And remember, they're already well prepared by the Oral teachings and other teachings read aloud from their earlier epistles when He said "what you have read and known."

So now place that actual verse in context and you get Paul sending an epistle that isn't teaching anything more than what they already knew from other Epistles He sent them that Priest of that Church publicly read to His congregation while teaching them the precise understanding of the message.

Your non denominational mind frame forces it to mean that the Epistles were copied in the hundreds and handed out to all the little non denominational believers who showed up at that Church. Well the fact is, that just isn't the case.

"For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldst ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee" (Titus 1:5).

 

[mont974x4]

He's not blind.... you just missed the point...just like your obvious misunderstanding of what a denomination is and your misunderstanding of what it is we believe. I understand your denominational teaching has impacted how you read and understand our posts just as it has impacted how your read and understand Scripture.

 

[ebia]

Looks like this thread has turned into the same old fodder.

 

[mont974x4]

yep
time to walk away. I've been on this roller coaster too many times.

 

[laconicstudent]

No wonder you're confused you don't seem to even be reading my post and you seem to be forgetting a great deal of important Scriptures....which is a rc Tradition it seems.

<snip>

Following Paul's example is wise advice, I suggest you take it yourself...read your Bible, not your sects propaganda.

Well, that was extraordinarily impolite.

 

[DeaconDean]

Leave them out of your Christ walk.
WHY?
Because they only lead to bondage.

What if I could prove to you that even though they did not have the term "denomination" in the first century, there nevertheless, were at least two denominations in the early church.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Kepha]

He's not blind.... you just missed the point...just like your obvious misunderstanding of what a denomination is and your misunderstanding of what it is we believe. I understand your denominational teaching has impacted how you read and understand our posts just as it has impacted how your read and understand Scripture.

The Catholic Church isn't a denomination. It's 'The Church'.
And yes, he's blind. The branches of denominations brought forth from protestantism created nothing but a mess of Christianity.

Non denomination sola Scriptura participants are the latest invention from this and even now have the audacity to claim the early Church were this type of believers. Keep dreaming folks. I know how nice it must be to make God's word into anything that makes you feel comfortable with.

 

[bugkiller]

Yes, yes, Catholicism rant and so forth.

Tell me, if everybody interpreting the Bible has the Holy Spirit, then why are there are 3 different interpretations per every 2 people? Or are there people who interpret the Bible that don't have the Holy Spirit?

Ah now you just might be onto something there. I find that just because someone goes to church or subscribes to a churches beliefs does not make them christian.

When asking people if they are christian, I get all kinds of answers. Rarely is the answer simply I am a christian. It is usually well I got to church or I am a (fill in the blank). It makes me ask what is wrong with Jesus. If you respopnd with the denominational church you attend instead of admitting outright that you are a christian where is your loyality? Jesus or a church. There are several posters here who promote you have to be a part of their belief system in order to be a (saved) chirstian. The same group has an Arian for a founder of their church. Could say more but wish to stay out of some trouble at least.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Yes, yes, Catholicism rant and so forth.

Tell me, if everybody interpreting the Bible has the Holy Spirit, then why are there are 3 different interpretations per every 2 people? Or are there people who interpret the Bible that don't have the Holy Spirit?

Really the simple truth is that they have something in their head and an empty heart.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

And how do you know what contradicts the Bible and what does not?

So how do you know what someone told you is correct or not?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

The Bible is not simple. This much is obvious. If it were simple, then there wouldn't be so many (or perhaps no) denominations. Of course, Luther was the one who sparked the "personal interpretation validity" movement...

Obviously, the overall message from the Bible can be gleaned from reading it. Anyone who is literate can decipher the basic idea of man falls, Jesus comes down to save, Jesus is hung on the cross for the forgiveness of sins, Jesus saves. However, the deeper meaning of the Bible, i.e. that which is necessary to understand when forming complex doctrine, is not simple, and is generally beyond personal interpretation.

I have a little red wagon. There are people who would argue that point and say it is fire engine red while another would say no it is candy apple red. Another might agree that is certianly has a red hue.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

somthing tells I don't think it was in Christ's plan to have every Tom Dick and Harry to start up his own Church based on their own interpretation of Scripture which ironically is very Anti Scriptural since Christ set up Leaders in which this Anti Biblical act seems to be the Evangelical way.

Look at all thsoe Non denoms starting every week it seems.

I used to think there sure is alot of rebellion going around. Now I think it is an utter shame that there is such a problem that people are having to do something different. I think main line denominations are dying - losing members by the thousands. Sure looks like something is wrong. The ones I see growing are not preaching Jesus. They are seeker friendly - that is telling them what they want to hear. Church has become about the individual not Jesus.

bugkiller

 

[MamaZ]

The Catholic Church isn't a denomination. It's 'The Church'.
And yes, he's blind. The branches of denominations brought forth from protestantism created nothing but a mess of Christianity.

Non denomination sola Scriptura participants are the latest invention from this and even now have the audacity to claim the early Church were this type of believers. Keep dreaming folks. I know how nice it must be to make God's word into anything that makes you feel comfortable with.

Actually it is a local denomination. The CHURCH is all those to whom have the Spirit of Christ.. That means each and every individual that has been born again. Not just because you are "Catholic"

 

[hedrick]

Whether denominations are a problem depends upon your vision of the Church. I don't see any evidence of a single international hierarchy in Acts. I see churches in different locations that were loosely in communication and communion with each other, but that at times differed on things significantly. People like Paul and Barnabas visited them, mediated, brought the Gospel to places that didn't have it, and renewed it in places that they thought had strayed. I understand that you can ignore the untidiness and treat this as if Peter was the Pope and there was something like the Catholic Church, but I think that's significantly misreading the evidence.

So the question is: how was our unity in Christ supposed to be reflected organizationally? I don't see any problem with individual congregations that cooperate as much as possible, and maintain fraternal relationships with each other. I'm a member of a fairly connectional denomination (the PCUSA). I think that polity makes sense. But I certainly wouldn't want to see every church in the US part of the PCUSA. I would like to see all of the churches accept each other as fellow parts of the Body.

I view the 16th Cent as God's judgement on the Western Church, rather like the tower of Babel. The Church had come to confuse itself with the Body of Christ, and not surprisingly, this arrogance had led to significant abuses. Fracturing the Church, much like fracturing the languages, was intended by God as a protective measure to make a reoccurrence less likely.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Whether denominations are a problem depends upon your vision of the Church. I don't see any evidence of a single international hierarchy in Acts. I see churches in different locations that were loosely in communication and communion with each other, but that at times differed on things significantly. People like Paul and Barnabas visited them, mediated, brought the Gospel to places that didn't have it, and renewed it in places that they thought had strayed. I understand that you can ignore the untidiness and treat this as if Peter was the Pope and there was something like the Catholic Church, but I think that's significantly misreading the evidence.

So the question is: how was our unity in Christ supposed to be reflected organizationally? I don't see any problem with individual congregations that cooperate as much as possible, and maintain fraternal relationships with each other. I'm a member of a fairly connectional denomination (the PCUSA). I think that polity makes sense. But I certainly wouldn't want to see every church in the US part of the PCUSA. I would like to see all of the churches accept each other as fellow parts of the Body.

I view the 16th Cent as God's judgement on the Western Church, rather like the tower of Babel. The Church had come to confuse itself with the Body of Christ, and not surprisingly, this arrogance had led to significant abuses. Fracturing the Church, much like fracturing the languages, was intended by God as a protective measure to make a reoccurrence less likely.

Good post and there is much truth in it.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I second that good post

 

[Standing Up]

The Catholic Church isn't a denomination. It's 'The Church'.

I'm sure every Christian except Roman Catholics would disagree.

Incidentally, unless things have changed, Pope Damasus called the group, the denomination, the Roman Church. Best not to confuse things even more than they are.