Denominations: why

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
10,129
4,257
USA
✟480,528.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The reason and formation of denominations. What’s your take on it. Why do they exist? Is this something that God orchestrated or is this something conceived from man?

This was from man, not God. I feel the scriptures are very clear and the Bible is Gods manual for us on how we should live. The day we should worship 4th Commandment, what foods we should eat, how to treat each other. Satan has twisted and confused this as he is trying to take as many lives as he can.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Friedrich Rubinstein

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2020
1,252
1,317
Europe
Visit site
✟174,237.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
When the Bible talks about itself, the word of God, it says:
"The words of the Lord are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times".
You see, the issue with denominations starts when we try to interpret the scripture instead of taking it literally. The Bible is absolutely clear on all topics, yet there is people who think they need to interpret it in a certain way or add to it. The result is obvious: some people say we need to be baptized to be saved. Some people say we have to speak in tongues to be saved. Others say we have to believe in some pre-trib rapture to be part of it. And so on and so forth.
Then there is denominations who rely more on the words of church fathers than on the word of God. There are denominations who value traditions higher than the Bible. I would go so far to claim that every denomination contains a good part of the truth, the Bible, but almost none are based on the Bible only. Even though that is exactly what we should do! The Bible is God's revelation to us, it is how God speaks to us and it is refined seven times, absolutely true and not needed to be interpreted this way or another.
 
Upvote 0

Rachel20

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2020
1,954
1,443
STX
✟58,109.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The reason and formation of denominations. What’s your take on it. Why do they exist? Is this something that God orchestrated or is this something conceived from man?

I can't say God orchestrated it, but he certainly allowed it. I see a positive side, though. Since denominations have hierarchies that ultimately control their direction, if one becomes corrupt, the others are not harmed.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,188
5,709
49
The Wild West
✟475,996.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
The reason and formation of denominations. What’s your take on it. Why do they exist? Is this something that God orchestrated or is this something conceived from man?

In 431 Anno Domini Nestorius, Patriarch of Constantinople, was deposed by the Council of Ephesus for a legitimate heresy, through the joint efforts of Archbishop St. Celestine of Rome and Pope St. Cyril the Great of Alexandria (it was not until the next century that Roman archbishops began styling themselves as Pope, although Leo, the next figure in our story, was the first Bishop of Rome to assume the former Pagan title of Pontifex Maximus, historically a political office held by aspiring men of state climbing their way up the cursus honoroum, for example, Gaius Julius Caesar).

Now, in 451, Leo effectively, via Chalcedon, anathematized the Pope of Alexandria, Dioscorus, the direct successor of St. Cyril, for alleged heresy, but a close examination of the Chalcedonian position and the Oriental Orthodox suggests this incident was regrettable, and it might be the first enduring schism.

However by this time the Church of the East, located in the Persian Empire, had become isolated from the West to the point where it fell briefly under the influence of Nestorius and the Nestorian theologians exiled from Antioch, who wound up in Nisibis. Thus, many people assume the Church of the East is Nestorian, but an examination of the Christology it assumed based on the work of Catholicos Mar Babai the Great around 500 AD would suggest otherwise. However one of their hymn writers, Mar Narsai, did compose one Christological hymn which I do find vaguely Nestorian, and they do not use the term Theotokos, which is a violation of the canons of the Council of Ephesus. However I personally incline to regard The Church of the East, or rather, the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East (they had a schism in the 1960s over the calendar) as orthodox.

This takes us to the year 1054 where Cardinal Humbert famously placed a writ of excommunication on the altar of the Hagia Sophia and fled Constantinople, outrunning the deacons the Ecumenical Patriarch sent after him, following a period of protracted difficulty between Old Rome and New Rome, including a schism in the 9th century over the Roman Catholic modification of the Nicene Creed to interpolate “filioque”, which was regarded by Byzantine theologians as Christological heresy.

So thus, in 1054, on the eve of the crusades, you had basically four legitimately Christian communions of churches: the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox, who had just fallen out with Rome, and then the Oriental Orthodox (Syriacs, Armenians, Copts, Ethiopians, Indians) and the Church of the East in Iran, Iraq and India.

Now, in the 15th century Jan Hus became incensed at the impact of the changes the forced conversion of the Orthodox Slavs of Moravia to Roman Catholicism had wrought, and attempted at the cost of his life and that of Jerome of Prague, who are both now counted as saints and martyrs in the Czech-Slovak Orthodox Church despite organizing what today survives as one of the two oldest Protestant denominations, the Moravians. You also had the Waldensians, founded by Peter Waldo, whose early doctrine was dubious but who endured brutal persecution and became part of the Calvinist community. The Waldensian church is the main Protestant church in Italy today if memory serves.

In the subsequent century you had Martin Luther explode in furious rage at misconduct in the Roman church, and Pope Leo X explode in equally furious rage anathematizing Luther and all his followers in the bull Exsurge Domine (Arise, O Lord) rather severely:

“With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected . . . We restrain all in the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication”

The Eastern Orthodox in turn anathematized Calvinism as a heresy and branded Luther a “madman” at the Synod of Dositheus in the 17th century but at other times, Orthodox-Protestant relations have been better. Particularly with the Anglicans, and here I would note most of the Protestant denominations in the US are somehow derived from people getting upset that the Church of England had not protested sufficiently. The Presbyterians, Puritans/Congregationalists, and Baptists seceded (except in Scotland, where the established Church of Scotland became Presbyterian and Calvinist due to the influence of John Knox, to the chagrin of Mary, Queen of Scots, a devout Catholic) from the established church owing to anger at Anglican practices. The Anglican church became more “high church” over time and is now probably the most liturgically formal church in the West, due to the superabundance of liturgical abuses in the Western Rite of the Roman Church since the reign of Pope Paul VI. Methodism began as a devotional movement in the Church of England which for political and other reasons became independent.

Meanwhile in Russia some curious groups such as the Molokans, as well as darker cults like the Mutilators, emerged in the schism between the Russian Orthodox Church and the Russian Old Orthodox over a liturgical revision brought about by Patriarch Nikon. This has partially healed, but in Woodburn, Oregon, and in Russia, you can still find Russian Old Believers who are not in communion with the Moscow Patriarch. There are also some Old Believers who fled to other Orthodox lands like Georgia, Romania and Turkey to seek the protection of their Patriarchs.

So that’s a very rough history of denominations.
 
Upvote 0

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The reason and formation of denominations. What’s your take on it. Why do they exist? Is this something that God orchestrated or is this something conceived from man?
Our Lord founded one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

Man, however, has founded many denominations.
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,786
2,580
PA
✟275,101.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The reason and formation of denominations. What’s your take on it. Why do they exist? Is this something that God orchestrated or is this something conceived from man?
Our Lord founded One Church. Luther founded another. Henry VIII founded another, I could go on and on....about 80,000 times ^_^ but I dont want this post to be too long.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Our Lord founded One Church. Luther founded another. Henry VIII founded another, I could go on and on....about 80,000 times ^_^ but I dont want this post to be too long.
Take out the errors and see how brief it becomes. ;)
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Hmm
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,786
2,580
PA
✟275,101.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
That is entirely true, includes that huge denomination which was founded in Rome.
Yes, but would you say it was founded in the fifth century when Leo the Great, the bishop of Rome, invented the Papacy, the most distinctive and unique element in that denomination?

...or Leo IX, who in 1054 broke his Western jurisdiction away from the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople, creating the greatest schism in Christian church history?
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,786
2,580
PA
✟275,101.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Yes, but would you say it was founded in the fifth century when Leo the Great, the bishop of Rome, invented the Papacy, the most distinctive and unique element in that denomination?

...or Leo IX, who in 1054 broke his Western jurisdiction away from the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople, creating the greatest schism in Christian church history?
since Henry VIII schismed from Rome, it is hilarious that you infer the Orthodox may be the correct branch of Christianity. You cant make this stuff up ^_^
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
28,278
13,507
72
✟369,745.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Yes, but would you say it was founded in the fifth century when Leo the Great, the bishop of Rome, invented the Papacy, the most distinctive and unique element in that denomination?

...or Leo IX, who in 1054 broke his Western jurisdiction away from the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople, creating the greatest schism in Christian church history?

I would say that it has developed over time with key events that you mentioned serving as landmarks on their journey to where it is today.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
28,278
13,507
72
✟369,745.00
Faith
Non-Denom
which bible did the Lutheran's and Anglican's start with before slicing and dicing books?

One might say Jerome's Latin Vulgate, but even Jerome was very much interested in slicing and dicing books, as you say, before he recanted and gave up his interest.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I would say that it has developed over time with key events that you mentioned serving as landmarks on their journey to where it is today.
...and as for the founding date? That was the question.

...and incidentally, could not most denominations claim to have been founded by Christ personally if we use the reasoning you outlined here?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

concretecamper

Member of His Church
Nov 23, 2013
6,786
2,580
PA
✟275,101.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
One might say Jerome's Latin Vulgate, but even Jerome was very much interested in slicing and dicing books, as you say, before he recanted and gave up his interest.
thank you for not answering the question. It is obvious why you chose not to.
 
Upvote 0