Denominations that teach that salvation is exclusive to them

[ozso]

any document is subject to mis-interpretation, especially if you don't have a foundation on the subject matter. Do you find that odd?

Would you say the CCC is more likely than not to be misinterpreted by those who aren't indoctrinated in Catholicism?

 

[ozso]

Yeah well, this is a message board so…….
and RileyG is right.

I get the impression that most Roman Catholics were born into it and raised in it, as opposed to having made an informed decision to join the RCC.

 

[FaithT]

I get the impression that most Roman Catholics were born into it and raised in it, as opposed to having made an informed decision to join the RCC.

That was me. Until a 24 year old break from Catholicism. Then I returned for about 10 years, more or less, then after checking out lots of other churches, I became Lutheran LCMS.
I can’t say I won’t ever return, though. I just don’t know. There’s no joy for me there so unless that changes, I don’t know if I’ll ever return.

 

[concretecamper]

Would you say the CCC is more likely than not to be misinterpreted by those who aren't indoctrinated in Catholicism?

No, I think it is misinterpreted equally by Catholics and those indoctrinated into Protesntism

 

[concretecamper]

I get the impression that most Roman Catholics were born into it and raised in it, as opposed to having made an informed decision to join the RCC.

Most people are born into their particular religion

 

[Valletta]

Most people are born into their particular religion

Good point. And I think most are respectful of other religions. I had 13 years of Catholic education and I don't recall every hearing a put- down of any Protestant or any religion bias. Protestants could attend classes but did not have to attend religious classes. But there is a strong anti-Catholic bias that some non-Catholic Christians have drummed into them. I was just reading Scott and Kimberly Hahn's conversion story the other night and read on how after his grandmother's death (he had one Catholic grandparent) he found her rosary beads and ripped them up. Eventually through intense Bible study he became more and more understanding of God's Word and ended up converting to Catholicism.

 

[ozso]

No, I think it is misinterpreted equally by Catholics and those indoctrinated into Protesntism

If that's the case then Catholics themselves give out as much misinformation about Catholicism as Protestants do. They're just as likely to be mixed up and arrive at strange ideas. Which would explain the ambiguity I've encountered.

 

[ozso]

Most people are born into their particular religion

Quite a lot of Protestants I know of where unbelievers who became Christians as adults.

 

[FaithT]

Quite a lot of Protestants I know of where unbelievers who became Christians as adults

My Christian journey started as being born and raised Catholic, eventually becoming agnostic or maybe even atheist In my early to late 20’s. But even then I longed to have faith, though, I just didn’t have it. Then Catholic again. After that I checked out a number of churches and am now Lutheran LCMS.

 

[FaithT]

Quite a lot of Protestants I know of were unbelievers who became Christians as adults.

At least half, maybe more, of the Catholics I grew up with have left the RCC to become Protestant, non denominational or nothing at all. Many consider themselves to be Christian and have a relationship with the Lord but aren’t affiliated with a church.

 

[ozso]

My Christian journey started as being born and raised Catholic, eventually becoming agnostic or maybe even atheist In my early to late 20’s. But even then I longed to have faith, though, I just didn’t have it. Then Catholic again. After that I checked out a number of churches and am now Lutheran LCMS.

But I take it you don't dogmatically see everything only through the lense of Lutheranism. As in Lutheranism is the one and only correctly true way to understand Christ and view Christianity.

 

[FaithT]

But I take it you don't dogmatically see everything only through the lense of Lutheranism. As in Lutheranism is the one and only correctly true way to understand Christ and view Christianity.

No, I don’t.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Technically it is not at all.
The idea that Christ had the answer and that new testament examples of the successful method that works
is an argument from proven success and trusted sources. (At least for Christians)

The only way to re-imagine it as "circular reasoning" is to argue that for an atheist any argument that uses the Bible's teaching to prove a point is circular reasoning since the Bible itself is assumed to be in doubt and likely false so no proof "from the Bible's history or examples" can be accepted.

I assume for this conversation we are dealing with the Christian context as a given.


If we are debating the atheist as to whether the Bible is true or not then I agree that we can't use the Bible the way I used it for that specific point. I assumed you were not talking about trying to prove this point to an atheist.

No --- I think Christ's example proves that tradition must be tested to see which part is hay-stubble-straw and which is legit.

circular reasoning much?

No not circular. I am trying to understand you but you keep avoiding the question and refuse to answer. What are your trusted sources?

We cannot use conscience because the Bible itself tells us of those that have their conscience seared with a hot iron and cannot rightly divide the word of truth. These would be as the blind leading the blind and both winding up in the pit.
If one were to use the Bible alone and had a seared conscience, he would be ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. This is according to the words of the Bible, which you claim to believe.

So I ask one more time. What are your sources, and how do you know that how you believe is true. What standard do you use?

 

[ozso]

I am sure the Jews of Christ's day viewed it that way as well - but notice His solution to the problem in Mark 7

6 But He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Now obviously they want to reply "no we don't do anything wrong... everything we do is right - it is you who are wrong and we have our tradition on our side"

Yet Christ's sola scriptura method did work as we see in Acts 6:7

7 The word of God kept spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.



Because the Bible shows it to be correct - just a in Mark 7 Jesus proves that the Jews were wrong by showing the Bible case for it... and not only could Christ's hearers see the point when He did so - but also in Acts 6:7 many of the priests came around on that as well.

And that is what you saw Christ saying in Mark 7.

God sends the Holy Spirit to 'Guide into all truth" as we see in John 16 - but He does not "mind zapp" people - each person must choose. Christ's method is the right one.

I always consider my view to see if it is in error - after all I am not infallible. But the Bible is and the Holy Spirit is as wel. God tells us to use Christ's method.

In Act 17:11 "They studied the scriptures to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - WERE SO" -- now these were NOT Christians doing it - they were people of the Jewish faith. Their own leaders were telling them that Paul was dead wrong. YET they had the ability "to read" and to see that Paul was in fact correct even though he was not strictly following their own religious leaders.



I understand. But the Bible shows us how it is done so we follow that method. A method that resulted in millions of Jews and 100's of millions of gentiles, pagans etc - rejecting their own leaders - and choosing Christianity.

1. The Bible is the work of the Holy Spirit - 2 Tim 3:16
2. Conviction of truth is the work of the Holy Spirit - John 16
3. Christ shows us how to use the sola scriptura method with opponents and Acts 6:7 shows that it works as does Acts 17:1-3

The thing with your arguments is I've seen them applied by Seventh Day Adventists to virtually all of Christianity; Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism. So as per the topic of this thread, it ends up as Seventh Day Adventism (and whichever denomonation holds the same views like Seventh Day Baptist), being the only Christian denomonation truly following the commandments of God. With the only true doctrine and theology to offer assurance of salvation. While virtually all other denominations are guilty of willfully breaking the commandments set forth in the Law that God gave to Moses, in favor of following man-made traditions. The main focus being on the 4th of the 10 commandments, which is why the denomonation is called Seventh Day Adventism.

 

[BobRyan]

The thing with your arguments is I've seen them applied by Seventh Day Adventists to virtually all of Christianity;

"almost" all Christian denominations embrace the "sola scriptura" testing for all doctrine and practice and those that do always use it to evaluate cases where they differ on some point with another denomination. "Obviously"

So there is nothing at all specific to Seventh-day Adventists about that -- as we probably all know.

So as per the topic of this thread, it ends up as Seventh Day Adventism (and whichever denomonation holds the same views

That would be "the same views on Sola Scriptura testing" in this case - which as I said is almost all denominations.

like Seventh Day Baptist), being the only Christian denomonation truly following the commandments of God.

There is a thread here regarding the 100's of groups that affirm the Sabbath.

But as my signature line shows - a large group claim that they too keep the Ten - so claiming to keep the Commandments is not unique to SDAs either.

With the only true doctrine and theology to offer assurance of salvation.

I don't know of any groups that claim that only they have the assurance of salvation - you might want to give more details to support your suggestion in that regard.

While virtually all other denominations are guilty of willfully breaking the commandments set forth in the Law that God gave to Moses

I have a way for you to demonstrate the objectivity of that claim you are making just then.

Answer the question in the OP of the following thread
- Objectively - what if the Sabbath is true (unedited) and evolution is wrong? What are the consequences?

It might help us all get a better understanding of what you mean.

, in favor of following man-made traditions. The main focus being on the 4th of the 10 commandments, which is why the denomonation is called Seventh Day Adventism.

I notice that you are responding to my quote of Mark 7 -- totally ignoring the teaching of Christ there - and posting as if I authored the text of Mark 7. It is hard to make a compelling argument that way.

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible is true because the Bible is true.

If we are debating the atheist as to whether the Bible is true or not then I agree that we can't use the Bible the way I used it for that specific point. I assumed you were not talking about trying to prove this point to an atheist.

You also think tradition is bad because the Jews used bad tradition

No --- I think Christ's example proves that tradition must be tested to see which part is hay-stubble-straw and which is legit. Noices His teaching in Mark 7 ...

6 But He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written: ‘This people honors Me with their lips,But their heart is far away from Me 7 And in vain do they worship Me,Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.

Both of those are flawed thinking and the Holy Spirit who guides into all truth would not lead you to believe that way.

circular reasoning much?

No not circular. I am trying to understand you but you keep avoiding the question and refuse to answer. What are your trusted sources?

1. The Bible - that is authored by the Holy Spirit according to 1 Peter 1:19-20 (Peter is a good one to listen to on this point)
2. And the Holy Spirit that "Guides into all truth" as John 16 states such that "you need for no one to teach you" 1 John 2 as the Apostle John states. Funny thing is - that is also what the New Covenant states - Jer 31:31-34

We cannot use conscience because the Bible itself tells us of those that have their conscience seared with a hot

Not everyone has destroyed their conscience. That is part of the hardening of the heart process that occurs over time and leads to what John calls the unpardonable sin in 1 John 5. Your logic appears to be flawed in claiming that conscience cannot be guided by the Holy Spirit or that all people start off with a seared conscience.

If one were to use the Bible alone and had a seared conscience, he would be ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. This is according to the words of the Bible, which you claim to believe.

That is the hardened condition of the unpardonable sin - I agree it does exist.

So I ask one more time. What are your sources, and how do you know that how you believe is true. What standard do you use?

I answer again -

1. The Bible - that is authored by the Holy Spirit according to 1 Peter 1:19-20 (Peter is a good one to listen to on this point)
2. And the Holy Spirit that "Guides into all truth" as John 16 states such that "you need for no one to teach you" 1 John 2 as the Apostle John states. Funny thing is - that is also what the New Covenant states - Jer 31:31-34

And the fact that some folks have hardened their heart to the point of the unpardonable sin - does not negate that part of the Word of God - you cannot dismiss scripture and the Holy Spirit so easily.

 

[BobRyan]

If that's the case then Catholics themselves give out as much misinformation about Catholicism as Protestants do. They're just as likely to be mixed up and arrive at strange ideas. Which would explain the ambiguity I've encountered.

But the Bible shows repeatedly that people on opposite sides of the fence can come to the right conclusion as in the case of Acts 17:11 where non-Christians reject their own denomination's leadership - test the teaching of Paul sola scriptura and then side with Paul.

The very thing some folks claim - does not work or is at least "not reliable".

Acts 17:1-4 Paul was "persuading them from the scriptures"
Luke 24 Christ presented the truth about the Messiah and corrects false doctrine by reviewing with them the truth "in all the scriptures" and in the Luke 24 case He does so deliberately "as a total stranger" unknown to them.

 

[ozso]

"almost" all Christian denominations embrace the "sola scriptura" testing for all doctrine and practice and those that do always use it to evaluate cases where they differ on some point with another denomination. "Obviously"

So there is nothing at all specific to Seventh-day Adventists about that -- as we probably all know.

That would be "the same views on Sola Scriptura testing" in this case - which as a said is almost all denominations.

There is a thread here regarding the 100's of groups that affirm the Sabbath.

But as my signature line shows - a large group claim that they too keep the Ten - so claiming to keep the Commandments is not unique to SDAs either.

I don't know of any groups that claim that only they have the assurance of salvation - you might want to give more details to support your suggestion in that regard.

I have a way for you to demonstrate the objectivity of that claim you are making just then.

Answer the question in the OP of the following thread
- Objectively - what if the Sabbath is true (unedited) and evolution is wrong? What are the consequences?

It might help us all get a better understanding of what you mean.


I notice that you are responding to my quote of Mark 7 -- totally ignoring the teaching of Christ there - and posting as if I authored the text of Mark 7. It is hard to make a compelling argument that way.

The outline I gave regarding Seventh Day Adventism is based on lengthy discussions I've had with SDA members, and I consider it to be accurate. I've been told directly that the belief is the SDA church et al are the set aside chosen remnant whom God will save.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The outline I gave regarding Seventh Day Adventism is based on lengthy discussions I've had with SDA members, and I consider it to be accurate. I've been told directly that the belief is the SDA church et al are the chosen remnant whom God will save.

Not everyone on this forum who claims to be Seventh-day Adventist follow Adventist teachings, what you are suggesting that Adventists teach or think - they will be the only ones saved is not an Adventist teaching. It's always better to quote someone on these types of allegations because sometimes memories of things are not exactly what someone stated. Regardless, if you want to understand what a denomination teaches you should always go to their official website because I am sure there are many rouge people who do not go along with the denomination, yet associate themselves with that church, which I am sure is not unique to Adventism.

 

[BobRyan]

The outline I gave regarding Seventh Day Adventism is based on lengthy discussions I've had with SDA members

And you probably found that they like Christians in all denominations that hold their views on a "sola scriptura testing basis" are claiming that the Bible affirms their doctrinal position. That is not the unique part - would you agree?

I've been told directly that the belief is the SDA church et al are the chosen remnant whom God will save.

There is no SDA position saying that only SDAs are saved.

In fact we have a statement that goes something like "Where are the majority of God's saints to be found today? without question it is outside the small group that we call Seventh-day Adventists" -

We use the term "remnant" not as in "the only people that are saved" but rather the people that are engaged in the mission of "present truth" for our time. Each age has had a remnant engaged in the specific message for their time. John the baptizer was one of those but he was not the only person in Israel that was saved even if those people did not have his same information.

Our view is similar to Rom 2:13-16 for all people whether Christian or not

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

The consequence being that there will be saved saints in heaven who have never heard the name of Christ yet were following the leading of the Holy Spirit.