Denominations that teach that salvation is exclusive to them

[ozso]

As I've explained there were copies in the early centuries, where you get the thousands from I don't know. But there were many texts circulating, some ended up in the Bible and some did not. Many of the same texts were read at masses but there were differences from area to area. I also think it's fair to say by what they wrote that particularly some of the writers who addressed a letter to a specific audience would have been astounded that such a letter would end up in a 73 book Bible that would be in use for over 1600 years. Of all of the texts the Catholic Church determined what was God-breathed and what was not in a process that spanned centuries. And it was the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that decided to put them all together, and chose the order that Protestants use as part of their tradition. No Catholic Church--no Bible. It's not a mater of "credit," it's a matter of history although some people don't want to admit it.

It's pretty common knowledge that there are nearly 6000 surviving manuscripts. And it was well known before the 4th century which manuscripts, like Paul's letters, were legitimate and which weren't.

The Church was simply the Church centuries before the Holy Roman Empire Vatican Church took shape. What's the RCC doesn't go back to the beginning, it stated taking shape towards the end of the 4th century.

 

[ozso]

Read Acts and what the early Church decided about circumcision. It is not recorded in scripture whether or not Jesus taught whether or not circumcision would be required the gentiles.

The Apostles were instructed by Jesus. It seems highly unlikely they did anything Jesus did not instruct them on. John makes it clear that only a portion of all that Jesus did and what all he said to them was recorded in the 4 Gospels.

 

[concretecamper]

The Apostles were instructed by Jesus. It seems highly unlikely they did anything Jesus did not instruct them on. John makes it clear that only a portion of all that Jesus did and what all he said to them was recorded in the 4 Gospels.

Agreed, welcome to Sacred Tradition.

 

[concretecamper]

The Apostles were instructed by Jesus. It seems highly unlikely they did anything Jesus did not instruct them on. John makes it clear that only a portion of all that Jesus did and what all he said to them was recorded in the 4 Gospels.

So, do you get to decide if what the Church does is consistent with what Jesus must have taught the Apostles?

 

[ozso]

Agreed, welcome to Sacred Tradition.

The thing is there are RCC traditions that weren't started by the Apostles or their direct successors or the successors after them and so on for centuries. Also the Empors of Rome after they became Christian starting with Constantine in the 4th century started making up traditions and rules to govern Church practices.

 

[ozso]

So, do you get to decide if what the Church does is consistent with what Jesus must have taught the Apostles?

I'm not sure that I understand the question.

 

[Valletta]

The thing is there are RCC traditions that weren't started by the Apostles or their direct successors or the successors after them and so on for centuries. Also the Empors of Rome after they became Christian starting with Constantine in the 4th century started making up traditions and rules to govern Church practices.

There is a difference between Sacred Tradition, passed down through the Apostles, and mere traditions or rules of which virtually everyone follows. As I've said before, Jesus did not leave us a rule book specifying details, such as what music should be used at mass or even if music should be used at all. Instead Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter. Constantine and emperors were never in charge of the Catholic Church, I don't know who taught you that. Rulers of various religions have tried to impose their will on the people when Jesus walked on earth and ever since.

 

[concretecamper]

The thing is there are RCC traditions that weren't started by the Apostles or their direct successors or the successors after them and so on for centuries

Such as?

 

[concretecamper]

I'm not sure that I understand the question.

Your answer about circumcision implied Jesus must have told them about it even though it wasn't recorded in the gospels. If that is the case, maybe Jesus instructed the Church to venerate Mary. Maybe Jesus told the Apostles it is beneficial to pray to saints.

Your answer opens up possibilities I don't think you are ready to face.

 

[Valletta]

God is in control of His Word and no one else. All Glory goes to Him.

I think there has been a lot of history re-written by the CC.

Historical documents have been authenticated.

 

[ozso]

Your answer about circumcision implied Jesus must have told them about it even though it wasn't recorded in the gospels. If that is the case, maybe Jesus instructed the Church to venerate Mary. Maybe Jesus told the Apostles it is beneficial to pray to saints.

Your answer opens up possibilities I don't think you are ready to face.

The difference is the circumcision issue took place immediately. Not hundreds of years later.

 

[ozso]

Such as?

You know them better than I do. Tell me a few, and then I'll look up when they were first put into practice and or mandated.

 

[concretecamper]

The difference is the circumcision issue took place immediately. Not hundreds of years later.

Ah, you are deciding on what to believe. Typical of Protestants.

 

[concretecamper]

You know them better than I do. Tell me a few, and then I'll look up when they were first put into practice and or mandated.

Cop out

 

[ozso]

There is a difference between Sacred Tradition, passed down through the Apostles, and mere traditions or rules of which virtually everyone follows. As I've said before, Jesus did not leave us a rule book specifying details, such as what music should be used at mass or even if music should be used at all. Instead Jesus gave the keys to the kingdom to Peter. Constantine and emperors were never in charge of the Catholic Church, I don't know who taught you that. Rulers of various religions have tried to impose their will on the people when Jesus walked on earth and ever since.

Yes Jesus did leave us a rule book specifying essential details. Both during his ministry and then through Peter, Paul, John and James.

Just for starters, Constantine was present during the Council of Nicaea, Pope Sylvester I was not.

 

[ozso]

Ah, you are deciding on what to believe. Typical of Protestants.

Argumentum ad hominem.

 

[ozso]

Cop out

How so? I just asked you to name a few and that I'd do the leg work from there.

The veneration of Mary started in the 4th century. Lighting candles for the dead started in the 4th-5th century. Cardinals came about in the 8th century. Holy water started in the 9th century. Vernation of saints started in the 10th century. Confessing to a priest started in the 11th century. The belief in the transubstantiation of the Eucharist started in the 12th century. Roseries started in the 13th century. That's just the few things I know of off the top of my head and looked up.

 

[concretecamper]

The veneration of Mary started in the 4th century. Lighting candles for the dead started in the 4th-5th century

How do you know Jesus didn't tell the Apostles that this was to be done?

 

[concretecamper]

Argumentum ad hominem.

Not at all. It's germain to your position. You decide what to believe and decide what Jesus told the Apostles (not recorded in scripture)

 

[ozso]

Not at all. It's germain to your position. You decide what to believe and decide what Jesus told the Apostles (not recorded in scripture)

I came to the conclusion that the Apostles were acting under the direct instruction of their Lord and Master. You'll have to explain why it is wrong of me to conclude that, because I can't fathom why that's a problem. And why don't you become Eastern Orthodox? Remember, you can't use any decision making in answering that, since you decided that decision making is wrong.