Denominationalism vs. Yahshua (and His 12 Apostles)

[kobuk]

Denominationalism is a man made religious construction inspired by Satan, similar to the building of the Tower of Babel. Nowhere is there even the slightest hint found anywhere in Yah's Word to support this userpation of the authority of the only structure designed and built as the institution to have authority to carry out discipleship training and all the other tasks given to Christians -- the Local Church.

Denominationalism is the brainchild of Satan, used to simplify the destruction of Christianity. It greatly simplifies the task of INFILTRATION and it's goal of DESTROYING what Yahshua and the 12 Apostles founded -- the Local Church.

Take out a few heads of a vast religious construction and the domino effect rampages through all of the Laocal Churches who are linked to the dispicable conundrum, such as gay clergymen.

Case in point....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070811/us_nm/religion_lutherans_dc;_ylt=A0WTUd4rXr5GDKwAJRtH2ocA

Just one example. There are many others of other tryies of conundrum. For instance. In this thread i'd like to talk about the fact that over 500,000 freemasons have infiltrated the Southern Baptist Convention. The 33 degree of which of Scottish Right Freemasonry, the source of most freemasionry rituals, being created by the Jesuits. The 33rd degree is completely wicked Luciferianism. We'll go into that later.

The main concern here among true Fundamentalists is what does Yah's Word have to say. His creation of the Local Church was designed to withstand all forms of INFILTRATION by it being filled with the power of the Holy Spirit in the believers of one geographic location. Who are therefore capable of together sharing in the responsibilities given to them as overseers.

There is no TOP STRUCTURE authorized by Yah to guard the 30+ million misled people who are in the SBC here in the USA. Nor is there one for the 4.8 million of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.

In my opinion. Though very firm in it, i'm always willing to discuss other's opinions, in the spirit of fellowship and the searching together in Yah's Word for answers.

Denominationalism spreads so thin the defense of Christianity, that today we have exactly the disasters which only the Local Church was designed to guard against. That's my thesis. Said one more way. Church hierachy that spans across millions of square miles and that sponges control away from where it's been designed to remain as a whole and complete fortress against evil -- is tactical folly in a world that the Scriptures tell us is the domain where Satan roams. A far flung religious empire such as within Islam, RC-ism or Mormonism illustrates the principle perfectly. There, men arise who put themselves as equal authorities to Yah. Or whomever they falsely constructed in Yah's image. With their false doctrines that span millions of square miles. That "other gospel" they preach. I've got news for some who are naive. Satan has taken these religious empires over by swallowing them head first and whole, exactly like a giant snake.

 

[DeaconDean]

So whats your point?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[cubanito]

His point is that he wants me to stop procrastinating and blow him out of the water.

Problem is, my heavy canons are trained on you, in defense of grandmamy.

Now, is that vain and narcissistic or what? "You think this post is about you, don't you, don't you?"

JR

 

[kobuk]

Carley Simon sang it. "Your so vain, ...you probly think this song is about you".

The point of this thread was not to rant but to air out what i've come to believe. When control is sponged away from Local Churches that's man making his decision to run things his own way. Using a means of consolidation of authority and power that's not the will of Yahshua.

I do recognize that it's a very broad subject. There are some associations that Local Churches can have. When they are in full agreement on doctrine. But i'm not an expert on the subject. All i know for sure is that Yahshua and His 12 Apostles set up the template we're all to follow. Local Churches of the 1st centuary are that template. I don't see any way to deviate from that in the area of the full responsiblity each Local Church has to Yahshua and not to anyone or anything else.

It's the same for us as individual christians. We don't share the responsibility we each have to live our own life as we should with anyone else. We're the full unit of accountability and it's indivisible. We stand before Him in the end all alone with what we have done with our lives.

In Revelation, each of the 7 Local Churches stood alone when they gave their account of their deeds. It's the full unit. Undividable. The decisions that a Local Church has to make to carry out what the institution of the Church was created for are not rightly available for trade with any other operation.

I'd have to do a lot of study to be able to define exactly where everything falls correctly into place. Cooperation between Local Churches logically has to occur on some level on a continuous basis everywhere. We're to love each other. But with respect for the individual boundaries of every Local Church, as defined by Scripture.

I hope this makes sense to those of you who are seemingly unable to understand anything i've been saying.
​

 

[Vambram]

Kobuk, I understand what you are saying, and to some extent, I believe that I agree with you. So, whats your opinion about fellowships of pastors of independent Baptist local churches in which the pastors and the local churches mutually agree to financially support fundamentalist baptists colleges, and also support with finances, prayers, and resources the graduates of those colleges as those graduates go out into the world to be missionaries, pastors, evangelists, etc. etc, and etc.

 

[kobuk]

whats your opinion about fellowships of pastors of independent Baptist local churches in which the pastors and the local churches mutually agree to financially support fundamentalist baptists colleges, and also support with finances, prayers, and resources the graduates of those colleges as those graduates go out into the world to be missionaries, pastors, evangelists, etc. etc, and etc.

This is for those who like reading. It's a long message. I understand that.

And so in response to Vambram's honest post then, ....It depends on if any unbiblical tentacles grow around the entire process of freewill giving and accomplishing of an intended goal. Along the entire chain. From the asking of the money to the distribution of it.

In Scripture there were times when money was collected from a large number of believers to put into a common pool for all to use as they needed. I think that was found in the book of Acts.

But what about when a large denomination collects money from it's thousands of Local Churches that have joined it or have been seeded by that denomination? The Southern Baptist Convention "requires" a certain percentage be given by every Local Church within it's control to their large missionary program. I remember my Pastor at a Local Church that was in the SBC was upset with then SBC President Charles Stanley for the way Stanley gave less and then rationilzed it away as being because he gave more in other areas. Things get dicey real quick when it comes to money and rules about giving it that come from a central headquarters. I believe that any centralization of power that sponges independence away from Local Churches is a serious violation of Yah's Word and will.

Where is decision making power supposed to be located? Local Churches are not controlled by one man called the Pastor. Elders go over what the specific tasks of their Church ought to be and that's what directs the giving process. The Pastor has one vote. A Fundamentalist Bible School could very easily be on the list of giving at many surrounding Local Churches. But i see no Scriptural basis for institutionalizing the giving into a denominational hierarchy that sets up rules and amounts to give, etc.

Respect for the proper boundaries of all Local Churches is what i believe maintains the integrity of their health, security and track record in serving their Creator. On a case by case basis. Exactly as was the proper order of individual conduct we saw as we read about the seven individual Local Church's in Revelation. The basic unit of the created institution Yahshua calls His Local Church is undividable into smaller pieces and likewise along the same line of reasoning, cannot be lumped into greater sized clumps of many together under a greater sized command and control structure.

I ask that no one try to test me to see if i know everything there is to know about this. What i believe is based on good common sense based on the basic clear instructions we all can read for ourselves and understand from Scripture.

Denominationalism today has reached the extreme level of vulnerability to Satan in at least one instance of setting the mandate that gays can be ordained ministers. We could find a long list of other "successful" invasions into Local Churches. The problem is the vulnerable "back door" entryway caused by an easily manipulated and gullible hierarchy of selfg-appointed clergymen who hold offices that are nowhere authorized by our true Head.

Never has Yahshua authorized the creation of the SBC for example. That my friends is a denomination full of abominations. It matters not that they send missionaries. What matters is that is the job of the Local Church alone. Not Denominations, not Bible Schools or parachurch organizations. Yahshua made His choice when we made His one institution for the task. The wisdom is there in it's design to substantiate my position. It's designed like a fortress where the Holy Spirit indwells the members of that body.

 

[Vambram]

A Local church should be the ones responsible on how to decide to budget and use the money that the church has in its budget. Pastors in the church are usually not overall in charge of the local church's finances. From my experiences in local churches, I agree that local church budgets are should be and ought to be determined by the deacons and elders in the local church. In all the churches where I have been a member, that is how it is done.
In my question which you quoted, I did not mention nor did I refer to the Southern Baptists nor to the SBC because I have never ever been a member of an SBC baptist church.

 

[DeaconDean]

A Local church should be the ones responsible on how to decide to budget and use the money that the church has in its budget. Pastors in the church are usually not overall in charge of the local church's finances. From my experiences in local churches, I agree that local church budgets are should be and ought to be determined by the deacons and elders in the local church. In all the churches where I have been a member, that is how it is done.
In my question which you quoted, I did not mention nor did I refer to the Southern Baptists nor to the SBC because I have never ever been a member of an SBC baptist church.

As a Deacon and Elder in an Southern Baptist church, what you have said is pretty much what we do in our church.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Vambram]

That is good to know, DeaconDean. Thank you.
Is it your opinion or belief that this is --Now-- normal for most SBC churches? As an IBF church member, I ask this question because I do seek information.

 

[DeaconDean]

Pretty much. The church that I'm a member of, the deacons and the church treasurer (sp?) along with the Pastor, are always on the budget committee.

From my own personal experience, yes this is typically the "policy."

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Vambram]

Oh and for the record, the missionary organisations that the churches support in which I have had membership are the Baptist Bible Fellowship International Missions, the Baptist International Missions Inc., the Missionary Avaition Fellowship, and some others as well. Although I can to some extent agree with kobuk about the problems and sins found in each and every denomination regrardless of what that Christian denomination is; at the same time I believe and recognise that when local churches of the same beliefs & doctrines decide to obey the Great Commission to send forth preachers and the gospel to all the world, then I suspect that brother kobuk's preferred methods and what he believes is proper according to Scripture, simply would not be as effective in evangelism and local church building around the world as compared to how local churches obey the Great Commission through the use of the BBFIM, or the BIMI organisations, or through other well known missionary organisations in which I also include the missionaries supported by the local churches of the SBC.

 

[kobuk]

Missionary Avaition Fellowship

I've heard of that one. I've also heard of 'New Tribes'. I'd have to study them to see where they position themselves on the main important doctrines.

The point i wanted to make with this post is that it is logical that to carry out the Great Commission, Local Churches each can't afford to own their own airplane. Or in the mission field, each own 4x4 trucks, logistyical support buildings and so on. So some pooling of resources is required among Local Churches to be practical.

But there has to be safeguards against our enemies who will try to destroy us anyway they can. This is an area i don't make any claims to be an expert on. I'm going on good common sense. Cooperation between Local Churches can lead to top down control by a hierarchy of "leaders" and that's going in the wrong direction. There's a lot i don't know. But i can agree that the most effective missionary efforts certainly must be pooling resources. In the Amazon they share riverboats and float planes. Same in any river country such as much of Alaska. In Africa they share logistics facilities and equipment to lodge overnight and then travel over deserts and jungle, etc.

A Local Church may only be able to afford to send just one missionary to some far away land. Some "service" that serves the needs of these Local Churches in carrying out the Great Commision is often required.

It's a complex subject and i think i've made my point about the risks associated with going beyond what our Creator made for the task. His Local Churches. How they get along with each other is very important. But they are never to ceed any control of their affairs to a clergymen that's not of their Local Church. That would mean that some man or group of men had created a "superior" Institution to control an "inferior" Institution in their minds in their scheme to commandere and control dozens or hundreds or thousands of Local Churches. What happens is consolidating power always corrupts Christianity.

Imagine for instance, the bizarre scenario where one man claims to be infallible ruler of not just the Local Churches, but the governments, Kings and all lands. Has anyone ever heard of something like that before? I think so.

 

[BigNorsk]

kobuk,

How do you resolve what seems to me to be the apparent conflict between the first Jerusalem Council as recorded in Acts and your basic thesis?

I mean here it was, a conflict in the local churches, and they elected and sent guys to Jerusalem, to get the matter resolved. They specifically did not resolve it in their local churches.

Act 15:1-3 NET.
(1) Now some men came down from Judea and began to teach the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
(2) When Paul and Barnabas had a major argument and debate with them, the church appointed Paul and Barnabas and some others from among them to go up to meet with the apostles and elders in Jerusalem about this point of disagreement.
(3) So they were sent on their way by the church, and as they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, they were relating at length the conversion of the Gentiles and bringing great joy to all the brothers.

Act 15:22-28 NET.
(22) Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to send men chosen from among them, Judas called Barsabbas and Silas, leaders among the brothers, to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas.
(23) They sent this letter with them:
From the apostles and elders, your brothers, to the Gentile brothers and sisters in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia, greetings!
(24) Since we have heard that some have gone out from among us with no orders from us and have confused you, upsetting your minds by what they said,
(25) we have unanimously decided to choose men to send to you along with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul,
(26) who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(27) Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas who will tell you these things themselves in person.
(28) For it seemed best to the Holy Spirit and to us not to place any greater burden on you than these necessary rules:

Seems to me a clear case of a local congregation turning to an authority outside their group, don't you agree?

Marv

 

[DeaconDean]

Seems to me a clear case of a local congregation turning to an authority outside their group, don't you agree?

Marv

Don't bet on it.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Albion]

Act 15:22-28 NET.
(22) Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to send men chosen from among them, Judas called Barsabbas and Silas, leaders among the brothers, to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas.
(23) They sent this letter with them:
From the apostles and elders, your brothers, to the Gentile brothers and sisters in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia, greetings!
(24) Since we have heard that some have gone out from among us with no orders from us and have confused you, upsetting your minds by what they said,
(25) we have unanimously decided to choose men to send to you along with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul,
(26) who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(27) Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas who will tell you these things themselves in person.
(28) For it seemed best to the Holy Spirit and to us not to place any greater burden on you than these necessary rules:

Seems to me a clear case of a local congregation turning to an authority outside their group, don't you agree?

Marv

I agree. Jesus said he was founding his church, not churches. The seven churches mentioned in Revelation are emblematic, not the only people who will make it to Heaven. And we know for a fact that as soon as Christianity spread beyond its local beginnings, Apostles and their successors were in charge of the spin-off congregations just as much as the churches that founded them as their missions.

 

[kobuk]

I agree. Jesus said he was founding his church, not churches. The seven churches mentioned in Revelation are emblematic, not the only people who will make it to Heaven. And we know for a fact that as soon as Christianity spread beyond its local beginnings, Apostles and their successors were in charge of the spin-off congregations just as much as the churches that founded them as their missions.

Let's cover what you just said...

There are no "successors" to the 12 Apostsles and Paul. These were Apostleships created for the establishment of Christianity right after Yahshua completed His establishment of the Gospel through His substitutionary death and victorious resurrection as the foundation of all of the future.

Second, Scriptures define what a Local Church is in many other areas besides Revelation. There is no such thing as a "leader" of several Local Churches. The highest leadership position within christianity is in the Local Church itself. Therefore, if you try to create a hieracrchy of clergymen to rule over several Local Churches, you have to invent their job resume and invent the doctrine to support your agenda.

It's the old argument of the ecumenicist and RC-ism. That "the church" is to be completely united under one ruling hierachy of clergymen. I can show you the twisted Scripture they invented to use in support of their agenda.

Let's not ignore the very obvious will of Yahshua. He designed the Local Church as the next and only other level up in responsibility beyond our individual responsibility for our own selves. We form a body of believers and establish a Local Church and TOGETHER we pick up on the GROUP responsibility to carry out the tasks that the institution was created to accomplish. If we succeed as that group we share in a great reward. If we fail as that group, we share in the reproof from Yahshua - so adequitely described in Revelation.

Cooperation between Local Churches must never disrespect the boundaries of each, by creating an octopus of control over them all. This is the teaching from Scripture and Yah's wise design principles in action. An octipus too easily get's a fat head and it's legs cut off.

A Local Church represents the most intense human endeaver of mankind. The care and nurturing of the new disciples. The raising up of mature christians to become missionaries. The breaking of bread together.

 

[Albion]

Let's cover what you just said...

There are no "successors" to the 12 Apostsles and Paul.

Well, the first century Christians thought there were.

Second, Scriptures define what a Local Church is in many other areas besides Revelation. There is no such thing as a "leader" of several Local Churches.

Within a few years in the time when the Apostles themselves were still alive and active, there were indeed regional authorities.

It's the old argument of the ecumenicist and RC-ism.

Naaa. It is not dependent upon either of them at all. As you see, I cited Apostolic history and never once referred to the ecumenists or RCC.

Let's not ignore the very obvious will of Yahshua. He designed the Local Church as the next and only other level up in responsibility beyond our individual responsibility for our own selves.

If he had, I suppose we'd find the verification for that in the New Testament, wouldn't we? But he spoke of his "church," not his "churches."

 

[kobuk]

There are no more Apostles after the 1st century A.D. Scripture makes that clear. Yahshua called His 12 and then Paul personally to do His work of setting up the first Local Churches all around the Mediterrenean Sea. An Apostle had the very unique authority of an Apostle to establish the doctrines of Christianity. They were not to be compared to a hierarchy of clergymen, nor did they ever preach for the creation of one. The Church at Jerusalem was the first. Then there soon were many in many other cities. The Apostles had the authority to set straight all christian doctrine wherever they went. A nessessary function that was required to harmonize the doctrine of all Local Churches with the direct revelations from Yahshua that the Apostle recieved and faithfuilly transmitted.

Fundamentalists can go on and on in a debate with Anglicans and get nowhere. Please, if you have more to say, carry it up into the "ask a Fundamentalist" sub-forum.

Anglicanism is perhaps the perfect example of falling prey to RC-ism. The Anglican "hierarchy of clergymen" have been dragging thousands of Protestant Local Churches back under the rule of RC-ism.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article1403702.ece

78 million Anglicans have been taken over by the hijacking of their totally unScriptural hierarchy system of their clergymen. This is exactly another big reason why Yahshua never created the hierarchy system. The corruptable octopus that is the hierarchy system, is tactical folly, in a world that's filled with hijackers who are running around trying to overthrow and destroy Christianity. Men are never called by Yah to serve in any such hierarchy. Because that hierarchy contradicts His Word.

Go to your Local Church and cancel all it's ties to Anglicanism and all the other isms. Because they are not of Yah's Word and they will inevitably be taken over and try to lead you away from the sound doctrine that the Apostles drilled into every Local Church and which Yahshua gave the responsibility to maintain pure.

REVELATION CHAPTER 2

1 ¶ Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of YAH.

 

[Albion]

There are no more Apostles after the 1st century A.D. Scripture makes that clear.

I didn't say anything to the contrary.

Yahshua called His 12 and then Paul personally to do His work of setting up the first Local Churches all around the Mediterrenean Sea.

And we know from scripture that they commissioned others to do the same.

Fundamentalists can go on and on in a debate with Anglicans and get nowhere.

Often they do just fine, especially since many Anglicans are fundamentalists.

Anglicanism is perhaps the perfect example of falling prey to RC-ism. The Anglican "hierarchy of clergymen" have been dragging thousands of Protestant Local Churches back under the rule of RC-ism

I'll take that bizarre observation as indicative of one who is unknowledgable concerning Christian history.

78 million Anglicans.

It appears that you don't know too much about Anglicanism in the present, either. There are about 110 million Anglicans.

Go to your Local Church and cancel all it's ties to Anglicanism and all the other isms. Because they are not of Yah's Word and they will inevitably be taken over and try to lead you away from the sound doctrine that the Apostles drilled into every Local Church and which Yahshua gave the responsibility to maintain pure.

You are entitled your own denomination slant on all of this, but you can forget about trying to make a discussion into a lecture. However, If you have questions about Anglican history, I'll be glad to help you. Otherwise, why don't we just stick to the topic?

 

[BigNorsk]

There were a lot more Apostles than just the 12 plus one. However, once those who had studied with and been sent by Jesus died, there were no others.

1Co 15:5-9 NET.
(5) and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
(6) Then he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
(7) Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
(8) Last of all, as though to one born at the wrong time, he appeared to me also.
(9) For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

Note that the twelve are clearly not all the Apostles or Paul would just be repeating himself as to whom the Lord appeared to.

Marv