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I will try to respond to this in the morning. It is either very late or very early depending on your prospective.While there is a grain of truth in what you are saying, it is not the whole truth. Non-Calvinist theology is inconsistent, and quite often...thoughtless and emotional in practice. I have heard many worship songs I would consider "will worship", that much I will concede. Songs focusing on self, and what I will do, etc.
What you are suggesting is a strawman version of non-Calvinism. By the way, I am using the phrase "non-Calvinist" because countless non-Calvinists have never heard the terms "Arminian" or "Calvinist", much less know what they mean. It is quite possible to love God and His sovereign grace and be a non-Calvinist...even if they are inconsistant in their beliefs. I daresay the thief on the cross next to Jesus was no Calvinist...nor Reformed. I doubt he knew much theology, or read any of Paul's letters.
Praise God my salvation is not in your hands! Praise God He knows what He has done in my life! I don't seem to recall anybody claiming that simply changing from one theology to another is salvation...quite the contrary. That you doubt our salvation...means nothing. Oh ye of little faith!
Knowledge cannot save, God alone saves.
I beg to differ. It is to recognize that despite human error, God alone has the power to save. It would seem, that it has not crossed your thinking, that the work of coming to a perfect interpretation of all of Scripture (the interpretation you hold), is indeed a work, and a work you are involved in, because it requires learning and memory retention. I think I know how you will respond but I want to hear it...
Wait just a minute there...I will tell you firsthand, when I had an Arminian like understanding, I did not believe anything I did saved me. I would tell you straight up that I could not save myself, God saved me. What you are suggesting is a strawman. Even if non-Calvinists preach heavy on works, it does not necessarily conclude that they preach a works based salvation. One can preach salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for the glory of God alone and still preach Christian duty, human responsibility. We have to be involved in Salvation to be saved, repentance is our duty, not God's. Read carefully, if I had NOTHING to do with my salvation, no involvement, then how is it that God the Holy Spirit raised ME to life? How is it that Christ gave ME saving faith? If I had nothing to do with my salvation...not only this, but particular redemption involves specific individuals. Yes, I had a part, my part was sin, Praise God for Jesus Christ died for my sins, and rose from the dead, so that I can have eternal life with Him.
If you were to pick up Mr Gill, among other historic baptists, and did your own research,
There is more than a grain of truth I am afraid. The whole non-Calvinist approach to worship is man centered and therefore focused on the will of man. They preach sermons intended to make men do something: pray, read, give and live. Their approach to the gospel is God has done His part and now you must do yours.twin1954
The simple fact is that Arminian free will works religion is will worship. But so is much of Reformed theology.
While there is a grain of truth in what you are saying, it is not the whole truth. Non-Calvinist theology is inconsistent, and quite often...thoughtless and emotional in practice. I have heard many worship songs I would consider "will worship", that much I will concede. Songs focusing on self, and what I will do, etc.
It is no strawman at all. I am not the least bit concerned with whether anyone knows what Calvinism or Arminianism is. I use those terms because I am speaking to folks who supposedly do know the difference. While it is true that you can love God and His sovereign grace and not know that it is Calvinist to do so it isnt possible to love God and hate His truth. I am not concerned with their inconsistencies, that is just a matter of theology, I am concerned with who it is they worship. The thief knew one thing needful, Christ is the Lord God. He got it by revelation the same as all believers do. Sure you can read the Scriptures and know all the facts about God according to the Scriptures but to know Him comes only by revelation. Matt. 11:27.16:17,John 6:44-46, Gal. 1:16 And no I am not promoting a Gnostic form of knowledge. It doesnt come from out of the blue apart from the Scriptures but it is much more than just a mental assent to things it is Christ in you the hope of glory. You can hear the Gospel all your life and be as religious as they come and not know Christ until He is revealed in the heart by the Spirit. Until then all you knowledge is useless. I was a dead Calvinist most of my life. I had all the theology and doctrine a man could desire and preached it. But I didnt know Christ. Then one day Christ revealed Himself to me and in me by three little words, Christ is all.twin1954
Second I want to speak to the fact that an Arminiam free will works religionist is saved. It is impossible. You simply can't love God and hate His sovereign grace.
What you are suggesting is a strawman version of non-Calvinism. By the way, I am using the phrase "non-Calvinist" because countless non-Calvinists have never heard the terms "Arminian" or "Calvinist", much less know what they mean. It is quite possible to love God and His sovereign grace and be a non-Calvinist...even if they are inconsistant in their beliefs. I daresay the thief on the cross next to Jesus was no Calvinist...nor Reformed. I doubt he knew much theology, or read any of Paul's letters.
You read into what I said that which is not there. I never said that you arent saved I said that you werent saved as an Arminian. But changing theologies is not salvation. If all you have done is change theologies then you still arent saved. But if you have changed the God you worship thanks be unto God for His unspeakable gift. I fear that many Calvinists are just as dead as I was for all those years because they have superior grace that gives them superior knowledge but they have nothing else. The Arminian can be their brother because they havent gotten that superior grace yet. That is why so many work very hard to make Calvinists out of folks. They want them to have that superior knowledge. I never try to make anyone a Calvinist I seek for them to know Christ.twin1954
I realize that most of you were Arminians at one time and at some point came to believe in the sovereignty of God in salvation. Many of you think that you were saved as an Arminian but if that were the case it isn't a matter of sovereign grace but of superior grace. All you have done is come to superior knowledge. You have simply changed one theology for another. I am sorry but that isn't salvation.
Praise God my salvation is not in your hands! Praise God He knows what He has done in my life! I don't seem to recall anybody claiming that simply changing from one theology to another is salvation...quite the contrary. That you doubt our salvation...means nothing. Oh ye of little faith!
Yet there is no salvation apart from knowledge. Rom. 10:14You cant believe in someone whom you dont know. Paul sought to know Christ and be fond in Him. Phil. 3:10twin1954
Knowledge of a sovereign God isn't higher knowledge it is saving knowledge.
Knowledge cannot save, God alone saves.
So your contention is that we can start out with a false god and then by diligent study learn of the true God and be saved at the first? To be sure there is a whole lot more that I dont know than what I do but what I know is truth. Have I been wrong? Sure I have. I was once Reformed. Calling an Arminian brother isnt being compassionate toward their error it is assenting to their heresy. If you believe that they are saved then why even try to show them Calvinism? If you say in order to correct their error then you are assenting to what I said earlier about superior grace.twin1954
We can't worship at the throne of an imaginary god and worship at the throne of the God of Scripture at the same time. When Christ reveals Himself to the sinner He always reveals Himself as the God of Scripture. To call an Arminain free will works religionist brother is to compromise the truth of God.
I beg to differ. It is to recognize that despite human error, God alone has the power to save. It would seem, that it has not crossed your thinking, that the work of coming to a perfect interpretation of all of Scripture (the interpretation you hold), is indeed a work, and a work you are involved in, because it requires learning and memory retention. I think I know how you will respond but I want to hear it...
Ahh but what was it that you were really looking to? Did you secretly look back to when you accepted Jesus into your heart? No Arminian would come right out and say that they did something that saved them. They cant because the Scriptures are too clear that salvation doesnt come by works. But inwardly they are really trusting a decision they made or a prayer they prayed or an experience they had. They all look back to something and salvation isnt looking back it is looking up. I cant tell you how many times I have had an Arminian say to me that they know that they are saved because they remember when it happened.twin1954
The Scriptures know nothing of a superior grace that leads the ignorant into higher truth. What it teaches is a sovereign grace of which there is nothing higher. It knows nothing of inferior knowledge of Christ. It simpy says that eternal life is to know Him the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. John 17:3. To say that an Arminain is your brother is to say that you don't have to know God to be saved. Does that mean that you must have understanding in the doctrines of grace to be saved? Not at all. But the fact is that all who are saved know without a doubt that they had nothing to do with their salvation. And it is also a fact that all who are saved by the sovereign grace of God in Christ alone will not hate the truth of God when they hear it. You can't worship God and hate His truth.
Wait just a minute there...I will tell you firsthand, when I had an Arminian like understanding, I did not believe anything I did saved me. I would tell you straight up that I could not save myself, God saved me.
Your Reformed theology is showing. Do you want to know how I preach duty and responsibility? I preach Christ and Him crucified. All believers are new creatures in Christ and do what comes naturally. Just as the old man of flesh does what comes naturally, sin, the new man seeks to honor and serve their Master. The more I hear of Him the more I love Him and the more I love Him the more I seek to serve Him. I just cant help myself. I dont need to told how to live I live. I dont need to be told to repent I repent. I dont need to be told to give or how much to give I give. Why? Because I want to. I never want to hear another sermon on duty or responsibility I want to hear of Christ. I want to hear who He is and what He has done for me. When Paul writes of practical things he always does so in the context of Christ and His person and work. If you know Him you love Him and if you love Him it will work out in practice.What you are suggesting is a strawman. Even if non-Calvinists preach heavy on works, it does not necessarily conclude that they preach a works based salvation. One can preach salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for the glory of God alone and still preach Christian duty, human responsibility. We have to be involved in Salvation to be saved, repentance is our duty, not God's. Read carefully, if I had NOTHING to do with my salvation, no involvement, then how is it that God the Holy Spirit raised ME to life? How is it that Christ gave ME saving faith? If I had nothing to do with my salvation...not only this, but particular redemption involves specific individuals. Yes, I had a part, my part was sin, Praise God for Jesus Christ died for my sins, and rose from the dead, so that I can have eternal life with Him.
What does it mean when God says "they will all know me" ? The passage does not say believers are ignorant of who God is until some pious reformed theologian comes along. No, it says God teaches them this, not books, or calvinists. Im sorry if this is not your experience or the experience of free will proponents you know.
How ridiculus can you possibly get? You love to put words in other peoples mouths don't you. Once more you are seeking to build a strawman that you think you can tear down. Can you know God and not know Him as God? That is the question you must answer.So I think I am beginning to see your perspective. You do not hold the position that a person must hold, or be able to articulate, a full-orbed Pauline argument for Sovereign Grace and all that might entail in order to be judged by you and yours to be a believer. They need only grasp God's Sovereignty to a level and with a clarity that aligns with the teachings of your denomination. They only need to "know Him" well enough to meet your standards.
How ridiculus can you possibly get? You love to put words in other peoples mouths don't you. Once more you are seeking to build a strawman that you think you can tear down. Can you know God and not know Him as God? That is the question you must answer.
How ridiculus can you possibly get? You love to put words in other peoples mouths don't you. Once more you are seeking to build a strawman that you think you can tear down. Can you know God and not know Him as God? That is the question you must answer.
Can you know God and not know Him as God?
I am curious, what do you say to the charge that Mr Gill was a Hyper? I am not making the charge (though I suspect it's based on his book "The Cause of God and Truth"), merely fishing for your thoughts.
So I think I am beginning to see your perspective. You do not hold the position that a person must hold, or be able to articulate, a full-orbed Pauline argument for Sovereign Grace and all that might entail in order to be judged by you and yours to be a believer. They need only grasp God's Sovereignty to a level and with a clarity that aligns with the teachings of your denomination. They only need to "know Him" well enough to meet your standards.
There is more than a grain of truth I am afraid. The whole non-Calvinist approach to worship is man centered and therefore focused on the will of man. They preach sermons intended to make men do something: pray, read, give and live. Their approach to the gospel is God has done His part and now you must do yours.
It is no strawman at all. I am not the least bit concerned with whether anyone knows what Calvinism or Arminianism is. I use those terms because I am speaking to folks who supposedly do know the difference. While it is true that you can love God and His sovereign grace and not know that it is Calvinist to do so it isnt possible to love God and hate His truth. I am not concerned with their inconsistencies, that is just a matter of theology, I am concerned with who it is they worship.
The thief knew one thing needful, Christ is the Lord God. He got it by revelation the same as all believers do. Sure you can read the Scriptures and know all the facts about God according to the Scriptures but to know Him comes only by revelation. Matt. 11:27.16:17,John 6:44-46, Gal. 1:16 And no I am not promoting a Gnostic form of knowledge. It doesnt come from out of the blue apart from the Scriptures but it is much more than just a mental assent to things it is Christ in you the hope of glory.
You can hear the Gospel all your life and be as religious as they come and not know Christ until He is revealed in the heart by the Spirit. Until then all you knowledge is useless. I was a dead Calvinist most of my life. I had all the theology and doctrine a man could desire and preached it. But I didnt know Christ. Then one day Christ revealed Himself to me and in me by three little words, Christ is all.
You read into what I said that which is not there. I never said that you arent saved I said that you werent saved as an Arminian. But changing theologies is not salvation. If all you have done is change theologies then you still arent saved. But if you have changed the God you worship thanks be unto God for His unspeakable gift. I fear that many Calvinists are just as dead as I was for all those years because they have superior grace that gives them superior knowledge but they have nothing else.
The Arminian can be their brother because they havent gotten that superior grace yet. That is why so many work very hard to make Calvinists out of folks. They want them to have that superior knowledge. I never try to make anyone a Calvinist I seek for them to know Christ.
Yet there is no salvation apart from knowledge. Rom. 10:14You cant believe in someone whom you dont know. Paul sought to know Christ and be fond in Him. Phil. 3:10
So your contention is that we can start out with a false god and then by diligent study learn of the true God and be saved at the first? To be sure there is a whole lot more that I dont know than what I do but what I know is truth. Have I been wrong? Sure I have. I was once Reformed. Calling an Arminian brother isnt being compassionate toward their error it is assenting to their heresy.
If you believe that they are saved then why even try to show them Calvinism? If you say in order to correct their error then you are assenting to what I said earlier about superior grace.
Ahh but what was it that you were really looking to? Did you secretly look back to when you accepted Jesus into your heart? No Arminian would come right out and say that they did something that saved them.
They cant because the Scriptures are too clear that salvation doesnt come by works. But inwardly they are really trusting a decision they made or a prayer they prayed or an experience they had.
They all look back to something and salvation isnt looking back it is looking up. I cant tell you how many times I have had an Arminian say to me that they know that they are saved because they remember when it happened. Your Reformed theology is showing. Do you want to know how I preach duty and responsibility?
I preach Christ and Him crucified. All believers are new creatures in Christ and do what comes naturally. Just as the old man of flesh does what comes naturally, sin, the new man seeks to honor and serve their Master. The more I hear of Him the more I love Him and the more I love Him the more I seek to serve Him. I just cant help myself.
I dont need to told how to live I live. I dont need to be told to repent I repent. I dont need to be told to give or how much to give I give. Why? Because I want to. I never want to hear another sermon on duty or responsibility I want to hear of Christ. I want to hear who He is and what He has done for me. When Paul writes of practical things he always does so in the context of Christ and His person and work. If you know Him you love Him and if you love Him it will work out in practice.
He wasn't talking to you....
I've lost track of what is going on in this thread.
You are not paraphrasing you are twisting in order to make what I have said to seem foolish. So far you have built strawmen, put words in my mouth, made accusations that I do not agree with the book of Romans and now you are blowing smoke so that it seems my point is vague. There is nothing vague about what I have said. You don't have a problem grasping it you have a problem refuting it. That is why you have been doing so much dancing. Obviously you are not going to admit the truth for whatever reason and I am not going to back away from my stand on the truth. I am not going to agree to disagree I am just tired of the dance. Either answer my posts with a direct response or give up.My words only appear ridiculous because I am paraphrasing your position without the vague declarations that you seem to believe substantiate or explain your position. Let's take for example the words you use above that are intended to make your point.
What does it mean to know Him as God? The question, standing alone, means nothing of substance. It must be explained. I suspect that you are referring to some essential attributes of God which must be understood for a person to be saved. Operating on that assumption, lets look at the essential attributes of the God of the Bible.
In Chapter 6 of his book, Summary of Christian Doctrine Louis Berkhof offers the following attributes of God.
Assuming Mr. Berkhofs list to be a reasonable starting point regarding what God has revealed to us about Himself . . . which of these attributes will a person know if he is a true believer (albeit a recently converted new believer)?
- The independence or self-existence of God.
- The immutability of God.
- The infinity of God.
- The simplicity of God. By ascribing simplicity to God we mean that He is not composed of various parts, such as the body and soul in man, and for that very reason is not subject to division.
- The knowledge of (possessed by) God. This is that perfection of God whereby He, in a manner all His own, knows Himself and all things possible and actual.
- The wisdom of God. God's wisdom is an aspect of His knowledge.
- The goodness of God. God is good, that is, perfectly holy.
- The love of God. This is often called the most central attribute of God, but it is doubtful whether it should be regarded as more central than the other perfections of God.
- The righteousness of God. The righteousness of God is that perfection by which He maintains Himself as the Holy One over against every violation of His holiness.
- The veracity of God.
- The sovereignty of God. This may be considered from two different points of view, namely, His sovereign will, and His sovereign power.
To what extent must these attributes be known?
Is His sovereignty weighed more heavily in this determination than other attributes, and if so, based upon what Scripture?
If they can list them is that enough?
Perhaps they must be able to list some but be able to describe others?
A bunch of folks that share a high view of God's Sovereign Grace are debating about whether or not a certain group (Arminians) with whom that all disagree, are too wrong to be saved.
You are not paraphrasing you are twisting in order to make what I have said to seem foolish. So far you have built strawmen, put words in my mouth, made accusations that I do not agree with the book of Romans and now you are blowing smoke so that it seems my point is vague. There is nothing vague about what I have said. You don't have a problem grasping it you have a problem refuting it. That is why you have been doing so much dancing. Obviously you are not going to admit the truth for whatever reason and I am not going to back away from my stand on the truth. I am not going to agree to disagree I am just tired of the dance. Either answer my posts with a direct response or give up.
I resonate with Muller.
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