Denial of the Trinity doctrine

2ducklow · May 27, 2008

Logicalthinker said:
Your right we don't speak in tongues. The apostles did though. But once all was written down it was no longer done. Plus JWs speak in many tongues. over 400 a matter of fact. We print our bibles in more than 400 languages. Free of charge too. We don't charge people for the good news like Christian stores do.

the fact remains that scripture says "I would that ye all spake in tongues" and you say that scripture don't apply anymore and any scripture talking about tongues in tHe NT is to be ignored. I don't ignore them I apply them, just as all beleivers are suppose to.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

logicalthinker said:
Have you ever watched people speak in tongues. It's demons dude. That's why no one understands them. Blah blah babble babble hiccup gurgle twitch. That is what people call tongues now a days. Pretty funny. lol. True tongues were understood. People heard their own languages in their ears. What good is it to hear someone babble. lol [/qutoe] well that's pretty much the same thing the unbeleivers said about the christians that spoke in tongueso n the day of pentecost.
you got bad company on this one.

true tongues are not understood. except if someone have the gift of tongues. which is a special ability in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

logical said:

Galations 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Click to expand...

you preach another gospel. I preach that faith in jesus saves. you preach you gotta bleieve exactly like you (logicalthinker) to be saved.

logical said:

everything has been said and is in the bible. There is no new info from the angels. If new info comes let him be accursed.

Good thing it is your opinion and not scriptural. Plus who truly is some one born again. Is it someone that has given his very life to Jehovah.
Or is it some one that claims to be born again and smokes, watches violent movies, fornicates, plays violent video games, and on and on.

Click to expand...

better not read the old testament then if you can't watch violent movies.

logical said:

They are lying to themselves. Once saved always saved. lol. Whatever. That is the attitude of the world. The bible does not support this.
King Solomon died out of Jehovah's favor. He was loved by Jehovah.

Click to expand...

most christians are not calvinists. your laughter is directed at a minority of christians.

logical said:

You have the anointed mixed up with every one else. All the apostles, paul, everyone at Pentecost all became anointed. They go to heaven to be priests. A total of 144,000 humans will be anointed. That is all that go to heaven. The rest of us are resurrected on the new Earth. Do you read the bible? You know the meek shall inherit the earth. Jehovah is a God of the living not the dead.

Click to expand...

don't know wha you are refering to.

logical said:

What are you talking about. The parable of the rich man is not from the OT. It is in the NT. That is why Lazarus is in the parable. He was not even alive in the OT.

Click to expand...

I realized that was incorrect and went back and changed it.

logical said:

Again you do not have scripture right. A person in prison without parole has the same chance as everyone else. His life has not been thrown away to Jehovah.
You skipped answering my scriptures about eternal destruction. Plus the first prophecy in the bible says Satan will be killed. Gen 3:15

Click to expand...

you didn't read what i said.

logical said:

In this verse the comma was translated in the wrong spot. John 20:17 wouldn't make sense.

Click to expand...

well god hasn't said where it goes. so yur guess is as good as miner anyones. either way it's a guess.

logical said:

NWT
And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”

This does not contradict what Jesus told Mary. The other one contradicts Jesus. The thief was in heaven before Jesus. No I don't think so. Plus Jesus was talking about paradise, not heaven. 2 different things. The thief is going to be resurrected.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Clearly he was not in heaven that day with the thief. He was dead in the grave for 3 days. Dead.

Click to expand...

I never said Jesus went to heaven when he died. you did.

logical said:

Where does it say the heart of the earth is paradise. It says heart of earth. Yeh the grave. in the dirt. Dead. Just like everyone else. But because of his perfect nature and living sinless Jehovah raised him from the dead. Resurrected him. Just like he will resurrect the followers of Christ.

Click to expand...

I already showed you.

logical said:

Your right no one has attained it yet. But we are working very hard to bring others into the kingdom. If everyone were JWs. There would be no more war, no more stealing, no more lying and everyone would start to grow up. Plus the bible says his Kingdom will be established before the end comes. Hmm. Who could that be.

Click to expand...

what verse are you refering to? THis one?

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

If so once again you change what the bible says. The bible says 'the gospel of the kingdom" you change it to "the kingdom will be established", which is typical of much of the rest of what you say.

virtualgirl · May 27, 2008

2ducklow said:
Matthew 28.19 is bogus scripture, not the word of God, it was put in the bible after the council of nicea so they would have some scriptural support for trinity. actually it doesn't support trinity, but they probablly didn't think about it to clearly when they stuck it in.

Proof?

2ducklow · May 27, 2008

logical said:
I know him very well. I know him so well I can easily say I am a follower of him.

then your religon is false according to your reasoning because JW's teach that you can't know god or Jesus, you can only take in knowledge of them.

logical said:
I don't hate my enemies, I don't make war, and I follow his commandments very strictly. Do you?

don't make war is your man made commandment not gods.

logical said:
Plus I never said who was saved and not saved.

You haven't said what one can do to get saved, so you have no gospel. I do. Believe on the lord Jesus and you will be saved, If you know them you have eternal life. everything you have said so far strongly implys that one has to belief exactly like you to be saved and if any one differs even slightly on even one thing from YOU, then they have a false religon. Saying their religon is false, is tantemount to saying they are lost.

logical said:
He tells us who gets in to the kingdom. People that don't do any of these things gets in.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

and those who know God don't do those things. God corrects his followers or prunes them off, but he is long suffering to usward not willing that any should perish so he works with people to bring them out of bondage. He wooess us , he don't just say "ah ha you lusted after that woman so i reject you" or "ah ha I saw you go out sat. nite and drink, i reject you"

logical said:
It also says in scripture that he will bring the just and the unjust. He will read the hearts. I just choose to follow a strict religion because I love him so much. I want him to be proud of me, when it is all said and done. Plus when I say Lord Lord he will know me. But people that don't follow scripture risk the chance of saying Lord Lord, and he says I don't know you. But they thought they did.

we don't think we know him we do know him.

logical said:
Again, If a religion does not follow the doctrines of the bible it is a false religion.

you have your own religon that only you follow which is apparently like 90 percent JW and 10 percent whatever else you add to it.

logical said:
What else would it be. I have shown you countless inconsistency with the very religion that created the doctrine of the trinity

I don't know what you are talking about.

logical said:
They don't follow scripture so what would make you think they got the trinity right.

trinity is false.

logical said:
The odds are against them. They got everything else wrong and did things out of greed at times. Selfish men.

who is they?
everybody but you, and JW's?

logical said:
Plus Jesus died perfect and sinless.

What if my name was Billy Bob Sr. and I had a son Billy Bob Jr. If I got pulled over by the police and told them I was my son Billy Bob Jr. That would be dishonest and a lie.
Well Jesus said he was the son of God. Was he lying? If he was God, why lie, just tell us the truth. Jesus was all about the truth and was no liar. So he must have been the son of God just like he claimed.

Jesus is the son of God, not God ,and not a lesser god. JW's are polythiestic. jesus and god the father are both gods to them.

Bananna · May 27, 2008

Logicalthinker said:
It was not given to me. It was given to all of us, in the bible. People just don't read it. They make up what is in it or continue with mans doctrines instead of the bible.
Plus 7,000,000 people think exactly the way I do and growing. All other religions are shrinking and none of them think the same. God is all about unity. I can go to a Sunday service here one Sunday. Than be in Japan the next Sunday and the service will leave off exactly where it left off at my home. The same bible study is the same everywhere at the same time. Pretty cool. How many Christian religions are that organized. All 7,000,000 of us are on the same exact page. We believe and read the bible all the same. You can't even find that in one church today. Everyone in false religion have their own idea. No unity.

That is why all who study the Torah schedule are on the same page and can discuss Torah and writings any week anywhere.

I agree it brings unity even in the midst of divergent ideas. what was that saying, "Three Jews and nine opinions'.

Yet all as one. If we love one another as Christ has loved us.

back on topic.
bananna

2ducklow · May 28, 2008

virtualgirl said:
Proof?

.

Eusebius (c. 260?c. 340) was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as ?the Father of Church History.? Although he wrote prolifically, his most celebrated work is his Ecclesiastical History, a history of the Church from the Apostolic period until his own time. Today it is still the principal work on the history of the Church at that time. Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings, and Matthew 28:19 is one of them. He never quotes it as it appears today in modern Bibles, but always finishes the verse with the words ?in my name.? For example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:

But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, ?Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.?

Again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:

What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name? Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, ?Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name.?

Eusebius was present at the council of Nicaea and was involved in the debates about Arian teaching and whether Christ was God or a creation of God. We feel confident that if the manuscripts he had in front of him read ?in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,? he would never have quoted it as ?in my name.? Thus, we believe that the earliest manuscripts read ?in my name,? and that the phrase was enlarged to reflect the orthodox position as Trinitarian influence spread.

2. If Matthew 28:19 is accurate as it stands in modern versions, then there is no explanation for the apparent disobedience of the apostles, since there is not a single occurrence of them baptizing anyone according to that formula. All the records in the New Testament show that people were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus, just as the text Eusebius was quoting said to do. In other words, the ?name of Jesus Christ,? i.e., all that he represents, is the element, or substance, into which people were figuratively ?baptized.? ?Peter replied, ?Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins?? (Acts 2:38). ?They had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus? (Acts 8:16). ?So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ? (Acts 10:48). ?On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus? (Acts 19:5). We cannot imagine any reason for the Apostles and others in Acts to disobey a command of the risen Christ. To us, it seems clear that Christ said to baptize in his name, and that was what the early Church did.

3. Even if the Father, Son and holy spirit are mentioned in the original text of this verse, that does not prove the Trinity. The doctrine of the Trinity states that the Father, Son and ?Holy Spirit? together make ?one God.? This verse refers to three, but never says they are ?one.? The three things this verse refers to are: God the Father, the Lord Jesus and the power of holy spirit (We say ?holy spirit? instead of ?Holy Spirit? because we believe that this verse is referring to God?s gift of holy spirit that is born inside each believer. It is lower case because it refers to the gift of God and not God. The original Greek texts were all written in what scholars call ?uncial script,? which uses all capital letters. Thus, although we today make a distinction between ?Spirit? and ?spirit,? in the originals every use was just ?SPIRIT.? Whether or not it should be capitalized is a translator?s decision, based on the context of the verse. For more on the form of the early texts, see the note on Heb. 1:8).

It should be clear that three separate things do not make ?one God.? Morgridge writes:

No passage of Scripture asserts that God is three. If it be asked what I intend to qualify by the numeral three, I answer, anything which the reader pleases. There is no Scripture which asserts that God is three persons, three agents, three beings, three Gods, three spirits, three substances, three modes, three offices, three attributes, three divinities, three infinite minds, three somewhats, three opposites, or three in any sense whatever. The truth of this has been admitted by every Trinitarian who ever wrote or preached on the subject.?

4. It is sometimes stated that in order to be baptized into something, that something has to be God, but that reasoning is false, because Scripture states that the Israelites were ?baptized into Moses? (1 Cor. 10:2).

5. It is sometimes stated that the Father, Son and spirit have one ?name,? so they must be one. It is a basic tenet of Trinitarian doctrine not to ?confound the persons? (Athanasian Creed), and it does indeed confound the persons to call all three of them by one ?name,? especially since no such ?name? is ever given in Scripture (?God? is not a name). If the verse were teaching Trinitarian doctrine and mentioned the three ?persons,? then it should use the word ?names.? There is a much better explanation for why ?name? is used in the singular.

A study of the culture and language shows that the word ?name? stood for ?authority.? Examples are very numerous, but space allows only a small selection. Deuteronomy 18:5 and 7 speak of serving in the ?name? (authority) of the Lord. Deuteronomy 18:22 speaks of prophesying in the ?name? (authority) of the Lord. In 1 Samuel 17:45, David attacked Goliath in the ?name? (authority) of the Lord, and he blessed the people in the ?name? (authority) of the Lord. In 2 Kings 2:24, Elisha cursed troublemakers in the ?name? (authority) of the Lord. These scriptures are only a small sample, but they are very clear. If the modern versions of Matthew 28:19 are correct (which we doubt, see above), then we would still not see this verse as proving the Trinity. Rather, they would be showing the importance of the three: the Father who is God, the Son (who was given authority by God [Matt. 28:18]) and the holy spirit, which is the gift of God.

6. In reading the book of Matthew, we note that there is no presentation of the doctrine of the Trinity. Some prominent Trinitarians doubt that the apostles were even introduced to the doctrine until after they received holy spirit. It would be strange indeed for Christ to introduce the doctrine of the Trinity here in the next-to-last verse in the book without it being mentioned earlier. [For further study on the subject of baptism, read ?Two Baptisms: Which Is Which??]

http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:6UF6ugbFncMJ:boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa%3FthreadID%3D700000526%26messageID%3D700007942+matthew+28.19+eusebius&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=45&gl=us

Der Alte · May 28, 2008

2ducklow said:
.
[SIZE=-1]Eusebius (c. 260?c. 340) was the Bishop of Caesarea and is known as ?the Father of Church History.? Although he wrote prolifically, his most celebrated work is his Ecclesiastical History, a history of the Church from the Apostolic period until his own time. Today it is still the principal work on the history of the Church at that time. Eusebius quotes many verses in his writings, and Matthew 28:19 is one of them. He never quotes it as it appears today in modern Bibles, but always finishes the verse with the words ?in my name.? For example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:[/SIZE] [ . . . ]

Some people will believe anything, written by anybody, any where, as long as it backs up their assumptions and presuppositions.

First Eusebius was an Arian, virtually same thing as a JW. He was excommunicated a few years before Nicaea for his heretical views. Gollee now I wonder why he didn't fully quote Matt 28;19?

Second, this says Eusebius NEVER quotes Matt 28:19 as it appears today in modern Bibles.

The omission of the phrase can be explained as due to Eusebius tendency to abbreviate, as Eusebius elsewhere often cites the longer form

1. [Contra Marcellum I.1.9; I.1.36;

2. Theologia III. 5.22;

3. EpCaesarea 3 (Socrates, Eccl.Hist 1.8); Psalms 117.1-4;

4. Theophania 4.8].

The shorter reading in my name could have been formed as a result of harmonising Luke 24.47 and Mark 16.17 (as seems to occur in Psalms 59.9). Note that Eusebius also alludes to this passage without using either in my name or the full clause [Demonstratio 1.3, 4, 6; Psalms 46.4; 95.3; 144.9; Isaiah 41.10; Theophania 3.4; Theologia III.3]. See further Hubbard, The Matthean Redaction of a Primitive Apostolic Commissioning, pp. 151-175; Schaberg, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, pp. 27-29 (who refer to earlier studies).

So the scholarly concensus is that Matthew 28:19 as it appears in ALL MSS that contain Matthew 28:19 is original. It seems that Mr. Smith has made a mountain out of a mole-hill.

http://rdtwot.wordpress.com/2007/07/12/l-ray-smith-and-matthew-2819/

Der Alte · May 28, 2008

2ducklow said:
[ . . . ] [SIZE=-1]Matthew 28.19 is bogus scripture, not the word of God, it was put in the bible after the council of nicea so they would have some scriptural support for trinity. actually it doesn't support trinity, but they probablly didn't think about it to clearly when they stuck it in[/SIZE].

[SIZE=+1]As I said some folks will believe anything, written by anyone, any where, as long as it seems to support their assumptions/presuppositions. The unbelievable thing is I have answered this same guy with this same evidence at least 2-3 times before, and he waits for a while and posts the same old, same old, over and over again.

To verify citations, [ECF Link]

1. Ignatius The Epistle to the Philadelphians [30-107 a.d.], [a disciple of John.] [218 + years before Nicaea]

Chapter IX.-The Old Testament is Good: the New Testament is Better

"Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." All then are good together, the law, the prophets, the apostles, the whole company [of others] that have believed through them: only if we love one another.

2. Irenaeus Against Heresies Book III [a.d. 120-202.], [a student of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.] [123 + years before Nicaea]

That is the Spirit of whom the Lord declares, [ . . . ] And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God,309 He said to them," Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "

3. Justin 1st Apology Chapter LXI.-Christian Baptism. [110-165 a.d. ][ca. 175 years before Nicaea]

For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.127

4. Tertullian Prescription Against Heretics.1 [a.d. 145-220] [105 + years before Nicaea]

Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to "go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost." 203

5. The Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. Part II. Dogmatical and Historical. (c.170-c.236). [89 + years before Nicaea]

The Father's Word, [ . . . ] gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "265 And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly.

6. Cyprian Treatise XII.1 Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews. [c.200-258][67 + years before Nicaea]

Likewise in the Gospel, the Lord after His resurrection says to His disciples: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

7. Origen de Principiis Book I [c.185-c.254] [71+ years before Nicaea]

From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and by joining to the unbegotten God the Father, and to His only-begotten Son, the name also of the Holy Spirit.

8. The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations.
Chapter VII. Concerning Baptism. [120 AD][205 years before Nicaea]

1. And concerning baptism,73 thus baptize ye:74 Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,75 in living water.76 2.

9. Constitutions of the Holy Apostles Book II. Of Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons. [Late 2d to early 3d century] [100 + years before Nicaea]

since our Lord, when He sent us, said, "Go ye, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."

10. Life and Conduct of the Holy Women Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca [mid 3d century] [75 years before Nicaea]

XIV. Therefore the great Paul straightway taking her hand, went into the house of Philotheus, and baptised her in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Ghost.

11. Tatian The Diatessaron [ca. 175] [150 years before Nicaea]

Then said Jesus unto them, [ . . . ]Go now into [sup]6[/sup] all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; and teach all the peoples, and 7 baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and teach them to keep all whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you all the days, unto 8 the end of the world.

At the seventh Council of Carthage in 256 [69 years before Nicaea], a bishop named Vincentius of Thibaris said, "We have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, [ . . . ]"Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.'" Vincentius' second quotation is from Matthew 28:19.

Seventh Council of Carthage - Concerning the Baptism of Heretics. The Judgment of Eighty-Seven Bishops on the Baptism of Heretics. 256 a.d. [69 years before Nicaea]

12. Lucius of Castra Galbae said: Since the Lord in His Gospel said, [ . . . ] after His resurrection, sending His apostles, He gave them charge, saying, "All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

13. Munnulus of Girba said: The truth of our Mother6 the Catholic Church, brethren, hath always remained and still remains with us, and even especially in the Trinity of baptism, as our Lord says, "Go ye and baptize the nations, in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. "

14. Euchratius of Thenae said: God and our Lord Jesus Christ, teaching the apostles with His own mouth, has entirely completed our faith, and the grace of baptism, and the rule of the ecclesiastical law, saying: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

15. Vincentius of Thibaris said: We know that heretics are worse than Gentiles. If, therefore, being converted, they should wish to come to the Lord, we have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, "Go ye, lay on hands in my name, expel demons." And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

[/SIZE]

2ducklow · May 28, 2008

Der Alter said:
Some people will believe anything, written by anybody, any where, as long as it backs up their assumptions and presuppositions.

First Eusebius was an Arian, virtually same thing as a JW. He was excommunicated a few years before Nicaea for his heretical views. Gollee now I wonder why he didn't fully quote Matt 28;19?

Arians are not opposed to the triatic formula reading of matthew 28.19, JW's have it in the NWT.

deralter said:
Second, this says Eusebius NEVER quotes Matt 28:19 as it appears today in modern Bibles.

The omission of the phrase can be explained as due to Eusebius’ tendency to abbreviate, as Eusebius elsewhere often cites the longer form

1. [Contra Marcellum I.1.9; I.1.36;

2. Theologia III. 5.22;

3. EpCaesarea 3 (Socrates, Eccl.Hist 1.8); Psalms 117.1-4;

4. Theophania 4.8].

circumstantial evidence pointing to the insertion of the spurious triatic formula into the bible AFTER the council of Nicea. Eusebius was forced to accept the bogus reading or be kicked out of the empire. Which is the proof the lady was looking for. All these references where Eusebius quotes the triatic formula version of matthew 28.19 ALL occured after the council of Nicea. How come he didn't abbreviate those as you assert that he did elsewhere? cause he didn't abbreviate these 3 triatic versions, and he didn't abbreviate the 19 some quotes PRIOR to the council of Nicea where there is no triatic formula in mattthew 28.19.

Even though he didn’t mention it, this is one of the assertions made by Wierwille. According to Wierwille this Matthean formula was corrupted from its original form and cannot be used to support the doctrine of the Trinity. He stated that the prominent Church father Eusebius quoted this verse eighteen times without once mentioning the trinitarian formula prior to the Council of Nicea (325 A.D.). It is only after this Council that Eusebius started mentioning the Trinitarian formula when discussing Matthew 28:19. This led Wierwille to conclude that,

"It would not have been difficult for scribes to insert ‘in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,’ in place of the original ‘in my name.’ This must have been what happened." (Wierwille, Jesus Christ Is Not God [American Christian Press, New Knoxville, Ohio, 2nd edition, 1981], pp. 19-20)

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/badawi_mt28_20.htm

deralter said:
The shorter reading ‘in my name’ could have been formed as a result of harmonising Luke 24.47 and Mark 16.17 (as seems to occur in Psalms 59.9).

the shorer reading harmonizes with the non triatic formula reading of matthew 28.19, The triatic formula version of matthew 28.19 does not harmonize with luke 24.47 and mark 16.17, on that point you are correct.

deralter said:
Note that Eusebius also alludes to this passage without using either ‘in my name’ or the full clause [Demonstratio 1.3, 4, 6; Psalms 46.4; 95.3; 144.9; Isaiah 41.10; Theophania 3.4; Theologia III.3]. See further Hubbard, The Matthean Redaction of a Primitive Apostolic Commissioning, pp. 151-175; Schaberg, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, pp. 27-29 (who refer to earlier studies).

So the scholarly concensus is that Matthew 28:19 as it appears in ALL MSS that contain Matthew 28:19 is original. It seems that Mr. Smith has made a ‘mountain’ out of a mole-hill.

http://rdtwot.wordpress.com/2007/07/12/l-ray-smith-and-matthew-2819/

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/badawi_mt28_20.htm

2ducklow · May 28, 2008

Der Alter said:
[SIZE=+1]As I said some folks will believe anything, written by anyone, any where, as long as it seems to support their assumptions/presuppositions. The unbelievable thing is I have answered this same guy with this same evidence at least 2-3 times before, and he waits for a while and posts the same old, same old, over and over again.

To verify citations, [ECF Link]

[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]1. Ignatius The Epistle to the Philadelphians [30-107 a.d.], [a disciple of John.] [218 + years before Nicaea][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Chapter IX.-The Old Testament is Good: the New Testament is Better[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]"Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]" All then are good together, the law, the prophets, the apostles, the whole company [of others] that have believed through them: only if we love one another.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]2. Irenaeus Against Heresies Book III [a.d. 120-202.], [a student of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.] [123 + years before Nicaea][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]That is the Spirit of whom the Lord declares, [ . . . ] And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God,309 He said to them," Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]3. Justin 1st Apology Chapter LXI.-Christian Baptism. [110-165 a.d. ][ca. 175 years before Nicaea][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.127 [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]4. Tertullian Prescription Against Heretics.1 [a.d. 145-220] [105 + years before Nicaea][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to "go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost." 203[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]5. The Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. Part II. Dogmatical and Historical. (c.170-c.236). [89 + years before Nicaea][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]The Father's Word, [ . . . ] gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "265 And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]6. Cyprian Treatise XII.1 Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews. [c.200-258][67 + years before Nicaea][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Likewise in the Gospel, the Lord after His resurrection says to His disciples: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]7. Origen de Principiis Book I [c.185-c.254] [71+ years before Nicaea][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and by joining to the unbegotten God the Father, and to His only-begotten Son, the name also of the Holy Spirit.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]8. The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations.  [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Chapter VII. Concerning Baptism. [120 AD][205 years before Nicaea][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]1. And concerning baptism,73 thus baptize ye:74 Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,75 in living water.76 2. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]9. Constitutions of the Holy Apostles Book II. Of Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons. [Late 2d to early 3d century] [100 + years before Nicaea][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]since our Lord, when He sent us, said, "Go ye, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]10. Life and Conduct of the Holy Women Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca [mid 3d century] [75 years before Nicaea][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]XIV.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] Therefore the great Paul straightway taking her hand, went into the house of Philotheus, and baptised her in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Ghost.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]11. Tatian The Diatessaron [ca. 175] [150 years before Nicaea][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Then said Jesus unto them, [ . . . ]Go now into [sup]6[/sup] all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; and teach all the peoples, and 7 baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and teach them to keep all whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you all the days, unto 8 the end of the world.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]At the seventh Council of Carthage in 256 [69 years before Nicaea], a bishop named Vincentius of Thibaris said, "We have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, [ . . . ]"Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.'" Vincentius' second quotation is from Matthew 28:19. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Seventh Council of Carthage - Concerning the Baptism of Heretics. The Judgment of Eighty-Seven Bishops on the Baptism of Heretics. 256 a.d. [69 years before Nicaea][/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]12.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] Lucius of Castra Galbae said: Since the Lord in His Gospel said, [ . . . ] after His resurrection, sending His apostles, He gave them charge, saying, "All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]13.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] Munnulus of Girba said: The truth of our Mother6 the Catholic Church, brethren, hath always remained and still remains with us, and even especially in the Trinity of baptism, as our Lord says, "Go ye and baptize the nations, in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. "[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]14.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] Euchratius of Thenae said: God and our Lord Jesus Christ, teaching the apostles with His own mouth, has entirely completed our faith, and the grace of baptism, and the rule of the ecclesiastical law, saying: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]15.[/SIZE][SIZE=+1] Vincentius of Thibaris said: We know that heretics are worse than Gentiles. If, therefore, being converted, they should wish to come to the Lord, we have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, "Go ye, lay on hands in my name, expel demons." And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."[/SIZE]

didache. all the early stuff stems from the didache not the bible.

Didache - Teaching of the Twelve Apostles
Here is some historical background regarding the Didache so that the readers can appreciate the importance of this document:

Since it was discovered in a monastery in Constantinople and published by P. Bryennios in 1883, the Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles has continued to be one of the most disputed of early Christian texts. It has been depicted by scholars as anything between the original of the Apostolic Decree (c. 50 AD) and a late archaising fiction of the early third century. It bears no date itself, nor does it make reference to any datable external event, yet the picture of the Church which it presents could only be described as primitive, reaching back to the very earliest stages of the Church's order and practice in a way which largely agrees with the picture presented by the NT, while at the same time posing questions for many traditional interpretations of this first period of the Church's life

[/quote
This document twice alludes to the Matthean Baptismal formula, serving as an independent witness that this formula was known and in use by the early Church:

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before. (Roberts-Donaldson translation; source)

Here is another translation of this same passage:

7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize.
7:2 Having first recited all these things, baptize {in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit} in living (running) water.
7:3 But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water;
7:4 and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm.
7:5 But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
7:6 But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able;
7:7 and thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before. (J.B. Lightfoots translation; source)

Ignatius of Antioch (ca. AD. 107-112)

Chapter IX.-The Old Testament is Good: the New Testament is Better.
The priests indeed, and the ministers of the word, are good; but the High Priest is better, to whom the holy of holies has been committed, and who alone has been entrusted with the secrets of God. The ministering powers of God are good. The Comforter is holy, and the Word is holy, the Son of the Father, by whom He made all things, and exercises a providence over them all. This is the Way which leads to the Father, the Rock, the Defence, the Key, the Shepherd, the Sacrifice, the Door of knowledge, through which have entered Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, Moses and all the company of the prophets, and these pillars of the world, the apostles, and the spouse of Christ, on whose account He poured out His own blood, as her marriage portion, that He might redeem her. All these things tend towards the unity of the one and only true God. But the Gospel possesses something transcendent [above the former dispensation], viz. the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, His passion, and the resurrection itself. For those things which the prophets announced, saying, "Until He come for whom it is reserved, and He shall be the expectation of the Gentiles," have been fulfilled in the Gospel, [our Lord saying,] "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." All then are good together, the law, the prophets, the apostles, the whole company [of others] that have believed through them: only if we love one another. (Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians; source)
]

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/badawi_mt28_20.htm

Ignatius got it from the didache, not matthew 28.19, the rest of your quotes are highly debateable as to ther authenticity. many feel they are later date forgerys or additions.

Logicalthinker · May 28, 2008

2ducklow said:
the fact remains that scripture says "I would that ye all spake in tongues" and you say that scripture don't apply anymore and any scripture talking about tongues in tHe NT is to be ignored. I don't ignore them I apply them, just as all beleivers are suppose to.

This is when the apostles were alive. Here is a verse that Paul says tongues will no longer be spoken.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

How about this one.

1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

A more excellent way than tongues. Wow. Maybe he means the bible.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Tongues are not so important in this scripture. Plus it says they that speak in unknown tongues only glorify themselves. God does not give the gift of tongues to his people with out someone to interpret. And if there is no interpreter the verse below says keep your mouth shut and pray to God.

1 Corrinthians 14:26 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

I was not a JW my whole life. I was baptized a baptist. I was a baptist more years than a JW. I have seen tongues spoken many times. Never by two or three with the same message. Both babble indifference. Plus in all my years of witnessing people speak in tongues. Not once was there an interpreter in the church to make sense of the babble. It is Demons playing with humans. Nothing more. It says in scripture, anything new is accursed. I showed you that verse and you play ignore game.

2ducklow said:
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

That is right, new tongues. Like I said Witnesses preach the good news of the Kingdom in more than 400 languages. That certainly is new tongues compared to the time of the apostles.

logicalthinker said:
2ducklow said:

true tongues are not understood. except if someone have the gift of tongues. which is a special ability in tongues.

Click to expand...

Wrong. Like I pointed out in the verses above, If no interpreter, no tongues. If people babble and there is no interpreter anywhere in the church. They are glorifying themselves or it is demons playing with humans. nothing more.

One time this lady in the church started speaking in tongues. She was babbling, got up with her eyes in the back of her head. She acted possessed and than fell on the floor and started to seizure. Of course everyone around her, (including me) just watched thinking it was God. 3 months later she died of brain cancer.
I still wonder to myself if she was having a real grand maul seizure and we all just watched and clapped as she suffered.

2ducklow said:

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Click to expand...

Sure if there is an interpreter. Like I pointed out. If there was no one to interpret, How does that get the message to the people. Plus I also pointed out that it would be more than two doing it and the interpreter would here the same message from both of them.

2ducklow said:

you preach another gospel. I preach that faith in jesus saves. you preach you gotta bleieve exactly like you (logicalthinker) to be saved..

Click to expand...

No I don't. If you recall I stated that Jesus reads the heart of the just and the unjust. It is not my place to Judge individual humans. But it is my God given right to Judge the doctrine of a Church. How else does one find the truth. I make sure in what I believe. No wishy washy weak explanations. It is all backed by scripture.

2ducklow said:

better not read the old testament then if you can't watch violent movies.

Click to expand...

Now your being silly. You know exactly what I am talking about. Would Jesus watch Saw, Saw II or Saw III. How about Hotsal, or tourista. Do you really think that Jesus would not mind? Do you really think that?

Mica 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

You should read this whole prophecy. This is established before God destroys the wicked. Well Who is it that does not learn war anymore. The JWs. The only Christian religion that will not go to war. We would rather die or be killed before some stupid human tells me to go off to some far off country to kill someone, I don't even know. Just stupid. If Bush told Jesus to go to Afghanistan. What do you think he would say? Maybe something like, Love your enemy. Or Vengeance is the Lords. Plus a Christian is to look at the fruit it produces. Yeh, look at the fruit being produced. Bushes pockets are being lined with Gold and families on both sides get their loved ones killed. Great fruit, for Bush and his cohorts.

2ducklow said:

don't know wha you are refering to.

Click to expand...

The 144,000 that the bible talks about. You know the anointed. As a baptist I even knew this. Notice the earth will be untouched by the angels until God has gathered his 144,000 anointed approved servants. That is all that goes to heaven of human kind. They will be the judges and priests of Jehovah. Everyone else gets resurrected. Not heaven.

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Plus look no one else were redeemed from the earth. The rest will get the resurrection that Jesus talked about. They will live on earth because the meek shall inherit the earth.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

2ducklow said:

I realized that was incorrect and went back and changed it.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the clarification.

2ducklow said:

I never said Jesus went to heaven when he died. you did.

Click to expand...

No. I said he was dead. As dead as dead can be. As dead as a doornail. For three days. That is what I said. Than I showed you a verse that you ignore that he tells Mary after he is resurrected that he has not ascended to the father.

You keep telling me he was in some hell paradise. Which you still have not shown scripture for. You gave one that he was in the heart of the earth. But nothing about a paradise he was in while dead. That verse you showed did not have the word paradise in it. Not at all. It said heart of earth. A grave.

2ducklow said:

what verse are you refering to? THis one?

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Click to expand...

No. But this is a great verse. As JWs we are working hard for the end to come. We want it to come. It is the fulfillment and Glory of Jehovah's will. It will be a great day when the end comes.

2ducklow said:

If so once again you change what the bible says. The bible says 'the gospel of the kingdom" you change it to "the kingdom will be established", which is typical of much of the rest of what you say.

Click to expand...

That was not my intentions. But there are many more that show his kingdom being established before the end comes. I slipped because I know of the other verses that talk about him establishing his kingdom before the end.

All of Mica 4

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Wow in the days of wicked kings. Kings of clay and iron that don't mix well. God will establish a kingdom that will not pass away. See his kingdom will be established before the end comes. Who is working hard to establish this kingdom. Learn no war and no vengeance. Plus who follows Jesus' commandments to the tee. Catholics, Baptists, Calvinists, Nazarene, Lutheran, Pentecost, protestants and on and on. All these religions involve them selves with war and vengeance. They do not preach the good news of the Kingdom of God. They teach mortal fear of God. They teach that God is an extortioner. LOVE ME! OR I WILL BURN YOU FOR ETERNITY.

Do you discipline your children by holding their hand over an open flame? I hope not. But you believe the God of love and mercy does that very thing.

God Bless
LT

Logicalthinker · May 28, 2008

2ducklow said:
then your religon is false according to your reasoning because JW's teach that you can't know god or Jesus, you can only take in knowledge of them.

You talk like you know the religion. But as soon as you say silly things like this, your ignorance is apparent.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded

We have a very personal relationship with our father and the Christ.
Why do we pray all the time? We pray to Jehovah because we are close to him. If it was all about knowledge why pray?

Your just making stuff up now.

2ducklow said:
don't make war is your man made commandment not gods.

Do you read the bible? It is not a man made commandment. It is scriptural.

Mica 4:1 1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Notice that in the last days. Last days. People will come to him and learn his ways and will learn war no more, Nation will not rise against nation.

Than if you read further you see that he judges the nations. After his kingdom is on Earth. Than the earth will go through pangs. Plus remember this is all in the last days. Just like it says in 2 Timothy 3:1. Last days.

Mica 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies. 11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion. 12 But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.

See after his kingdom is on earth than his people will go forth even to Babylon. Many nations gather against thee. Hmm. His kingdom will be on earth when nations gather against him trying to defile it. Of course they won't be able to.

2ducklow said:
You haven't said what one can do to get saved, so you have no gospel. I do. Believe on the lord Jesus and you will be saved, If you know them you have eternal life. everything you have said so far strongly implys that one has to belief exactly like you to be saved and if any one differs even slightly on even one thing from YOU, then they have a false religon. Saying their religon is false, is tantemount to saying they are lost.
and those who know God don't do those things. God corrects his followers or prunes them off, but he is long suffering to usward not willing that any should perish so he works with people to bring them out of bondage. He wooess us , he don't just say "ah ha you lusted after that woman so i reject you" or "ah ha I saw you go out sat. nite and drink, i reject you"

I did show you. Plus I have said Jesus will Save the just and the unjust. Do you read what I say? But why take any chances. Why not fall in line with him completely. Giving up the world around us. Why not? What's the big deal? I choose not to be a spreader of lies. If it is not in the bible. Why say it.

False religions say People go to Heaven or Hell the instant they die, It is ok to go to a far off land and kill people, Trinity, Baby baptizing, and on and on. Why be part of the spreading of unscriptual things?

Here I will show you again what one must do. They must wash themselves clean.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

You have to wash your self clean. You can't be part of those things anymore. Notice it does say don't be deceived. None of those qualities will be allowed in God's Kingdom. None, not even a little. Don't be deceived. What is it false religions say "All you have to do is believe in Jesus"
It takes a little more than just believing. To believe he is everything he said he was.
The demons believe, will they be saved?

We have been warned not to be deceived.

If a religion does not follow the doctrines in the bible, it is a false religion. Prove to me, with scripture, that God just doesn't care what his churches teach?

2ducklow said:
we don't think we know him we do know him.

Ok. Than how come you know nothing of the 144,000, that we were not to learn war anymore, love your enemy, and vengence is the lords. Plus you make silly remarks like "Don't read the OT if you can't watch violent movies."
Does the OT glorify Jehovah? Yes.
Does violent movies glorify Jehovah? No.
It is a no brainer to followers of Christ. What glorfies God and what does not. Pretty easy stuff.

2ducklow said:
you have your own religon that only you follow which is apparently like 90 percent JW and 10 percent whatever else you add to it.

Now you are just making stuff up again. I am 100% JW. Your ignorance of the JWs is apparent.

2ducklow said:
I don't know what you are talking about.

I'm talking about religions that don't follow scripture. They are false religions. What else would they be if not false religions. God's halfway right religions.

2ducklow said:
trinity is false.

At least we agree on that.

2ducklow said:
who is they?

The ones that started all the false doctrines in the church. It all came from the same church and flowed down like a sewer to the rest. Signs of their fallacy is in every church in America.

2ducklow said:
Jesus is the son of God, not God ,and not a lesser god. JW's are polythiestic. jesus and god the father are both gods to them.

Again your ignorance of JWs shows itself. Jesus is not God. He is the son of God, just as he said. JW's are Monotheist. People say what ever they want to discredit them. Which alway reminds me of this verse.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

His true people will be hated by all the nations in his name and they will try to deliver them up to be afflicted.

The hatred that is showed to JWs only strengthens my faith. What other Christian religion is hated in his name, that follow scripture.

You say things all the time through these posts that just are not true about them. At least what I say I can back up.

God Bless
LT

2ducklow · May 28, 2008

Logicalthinker said:
This is when the apostles were alive. Here is a verse that Paul says tongues will no longer be spoken.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

thatwhich is perfect hasn't come yet. that which is perfect is when we are like christ and see him as he is.

logical said:
.

How about this one.

1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

A more excellent way than tongues. Wow. Maybe he means the bible.

no if you read on further you see that the more excellent way is agape love or God's love. the whole next chapter is about agape love, right after the last verse you quoted.

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love (agape), I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.

agape is the more excellent way according toscripture.

logical said:
1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Tongues are not so important in this scripture. Plus it says they that speak in unknown tongues only glorify themselves.

wrong you change the word, It says they who speak in an unknown tongue EDIFY themselves, Edify doesn't mean glorify..

logical said:
God does not give the gift of tongues to his people with out someone to interpret. And if there is no interpreter the verse below says keep your mouth shut and pray to God.

1 Corrinthians 14:26 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

if you read more in that chapter you see that it is talking about those who lead in prayer.

1 Corinthians 14:15-16 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else if thou bless with the spirit, how shall he that filleth the place of the unlearned say the Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he knoweth not what thou sayest?

we are to pray with the spirit, that is a commandment and there is no understanding on our part when we pray with the spirit, because he says he will ALSO pray with the understanding. He is not to bless with the spirit, because no one will understand him and they can't say amen to it. People don't say amen to your personal prayer, or the prayers of those around you who are praying along with the one leading the prayer, we say amen to the prayer of the one leading the prayer.
so once again you have falsely interpreted scripture to negate every verse in the NT , and there are many, relating to speaking in tongues.

these signs shall follow them that believe, not them that be paul and peter. they shall speak with other tongues. tongues isn't languages, its not the word for languages, you change the word again to fit your JW doctrine.

Glossolalia (from Greek γλωσσολαλιά and that from γλῶσσα - glossa "tongue, language" and λαλεῖν (lalein) "to talk") is the vocalizing of fluent speech-like but unintelligible utterances, often as part of religious practice. Its use (including use in this article) sometimes also embraces Xenoglossy - speaking in a natural language that was previously unknown to and that is not understood by the speaker.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia

glossa means language, glossalalia means tongues. you change glossalalia to glossa to fit your JW doctrine.

logical said:
I was not a JW my whole life. I was baptized a baptist. I was a baptist more years than a JW. I have seen tongues spoken many times. Never by two or three with the same message. Both babble indifference.Plus in all my years of witnessing people speak in tongues. Not once was there an interpreter in the church to make sense of the babble. It is Demons playing with humans. Nothing more. It says in scripture, anything new is accursed. I showed you that verse and you play ignore game.

you showed me what verse????? at least say the verse that you believe i ignored insteead of just "you ignored that verse." no verse says what you say. show me the verse you interpret to mean 'anything new is accursed.
You mock us just as they did at the day of pentecost. You are not in good company on this one. the NT has lots of scriptures about ttongues and you mock us for believeing god's word about tongues, just as they did on the day of pentecost.

logical said:
That is right, new tongues. Like I said Witnesses preach the good news of the Kingdom in more than 400 languages. That certainly is new tongues compared to the time of the apostles.

tongues is not the word for languages, for the umpteenth time you change the word to fit your jw doctrine. glossilallia doesn't mean glossa. you just change it to fit your doctrine.

logicalthinker said:
Wrong. Like I pointed out in the verses above, If no interpreter, no tongues. If people babble and there is no interpreter anywhere in the church. They are glorifying themselves or it is demons playing with humans. nothing more.

I don't know what this refers to. But I've been to numerous pentecostal churches where someone inteprreted a tongue, I've done it my self numerous times.

logical said:
One time this lady in the church started speaking in tongues. She was babbling, got up with her eyes in the back of her head. She acted possessed and than fell on the floor and started to seizure. Of course everyone around her, (including me) just watched thinking it was God. 3 months later she died of brain cancer.
I still wonder to myself if she was having a real grand maul seizure and we all just watched and clapped as she suffered.

well they said those who spoke in tongues on the day of pentecost were drunkback then too. seems you don't care that you align yourself with the mockers of christianity. I saw a video on youtube once where these 2 mormon missionaries were witnessing door to door, and these two teens threw water ballons at them, well the mormon guy started cussing them out. So that proves that witnessing is wrong. Using your logic that is.

Acts 2:13-15 But others mocking (like you) said, They are filled with new wine. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose; seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

they were not drunken cause they spake in tongues and we aren't full of demons cause we speak in tongues today. you just mock us like the unbelievers of Peter's day.

logical said:
Sure if there is an interpreter. Like I pointed out. If there was no one to interpret, How does that get the message to the people. Plus I also pointed out that it would be more than two doing it and the interpreter would here the same message from both of them.

wrong. one message one interpeter. it happens in my church all the time. sometimes, rarely, no one interpets, but that is because the one God chose to interpet isn't obeying. so they give the mesage again and wait for an interpretation, in my church it neverhas gone past 2 times that I recall but if no one will interpert after 3 times then you are suppose to quit, but that has never happened that I recall. almostalways, someone immediately (like withn 15 seconds or less) inteprets.

logical said:
No I don't. If you recall I stated that Jesus reads the heart of the just and the unjust. It is not my place to Judge individual humans. But it is my God given right to Judge the doctrine of a Church. How else does one find the truth. I make sure in what I believe. No wishy washy weak explanations. It is all backed by scripture.

telling us that we all got false religons is the same as saying we are not christians and are lost, it is tantamount to saying we have lost the way. and are unsaved. You don't say if you know God the father and Jesus u have eternal life, I do, so you negate the word (john 17.3) with your JW theology. I accept the word JOHn 17.3. and say if you know God the fahter and jesus you have eternal life.

you have a false gospel unless you can say that if you know god the father and Jesus you have eternal life.

logical said:
Now your being silly. You know exactly what I am talking about. Would Jesus watch Saw, Saw II or Saw III. How about Hotsal, or tourista. Do you really think that Jesus would not mind? Do you really think that?

Don't know never saw them never heard of them , what did you think of the movies? i did see texas chainsaw masacre thought one time, long after it had been out. Not my cup of tea, i don't watch movies like that, but I do like war movies, like patton, or au revoir les enfants, or anymovie about ww2 especially. I like detective whodunits, and watch romance movies with my wife,(just to please her but don't tell her). God hasn't voncited me that I'm doing anything wrong and I don't believe that I am.

what's the difference in reading about the wars were David slew his 10,000s and watching a moive about it? no real differnce cause reading about it you visualize it in your head. same thing, I know 10000 people in a movie aren't really diieing, they are just acting. so if someone acts dead, like kids do in the play games, then it's a sin to see him do it? same thing as a movie, only not as good at acting.

logical said:
Mica 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

You should read this whole prophecy. This is established before God destroys the wicked. Well Who is it that does not learn war anymore. The JWs. The only Christian religion that will not go to war. We would rather die or be killed before some stupid human tells me to go off to some far off country to kill someone, I don't even know. Just stupid.

and if a crazed man with came in with a gun and started blowing your whole family away, you wouldn't stop him even though you had a loaded pistol in your hand. I'm here to say, i wouldn't hesitate at all.BLAM BLAM BLAM. i saved my family, and you lost yours.

logical said:
If Bush told Jesus to go to Afghanistan. What do you think he would say? Maybe something like, Love your enemy. Or Vengeance is the Lords. Plus a Christian is to look at the fruit it produces. Yeh, look at the fruit being produced. Bushes pockets are being lined with Gold and families on both sides get their loved ones killed. Great fruit, for Bush and his cohorts.

The 144,000 that the bible talks about. You know the anointed. As a baptist I even knew this.

I'm annointed of God also, and am not one of the 144.000.

2ducklow · May 28, 2008

logical said:
You keep telling me he was in some hell paradise. Which you still have not shown scripture for. You gave one that he was in the heart of the earth. But nothing about a paradise he was in while dead. That verse you showed did not have the word paradise in it. Not at all. It said heart of earth. A grave.

[ perhaps you forgot the scripture about "verily verily I say unto you, today thou shalt be with me in paradise."? Jesus did not go to heaven when he died he went to paradise. Jesus also went in the heart of the earth after he died. add the two together you get paradise is in the heart of the earth. that's my proof.

Der Alte · May 29, 2008

2ducklow said:
[ [SIZE=-1]perhaps you forgot the scripture about "verily verily I say unto you, today thou shalt be with me in paradise."? Jesus did not go to heaven when he died he went to paradise. Jesus also went in the heart of the earth after he died. add the two together you get paradise is in the heart of the earth. that's my proof.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Perhaps you forgot about, or didn't even know existed, the scripture which shows that heaven and paradise are synonymous.

2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2 Cor 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

[/SIZE]

2ducklow · May 29, 2008

Der Alter said:
[SIZE=+1]Perhaps you forgot about, or didn't even know existed, the scripture which shows that heaven and paradise are synonymous.

2 Cor 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]2 Cor 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. [/SIZE]

UH oh. time to rethink, regroup.............Ok, several possibilites open up.
1. Jesus meant that eventually the theif on the cross would be with him in heaven/paradise.
2. there are several paradises,
3. the prison where the followers of Noah who didn't go all the way were imprisoned and where Lazerus was when talking to the rich man, isn't called paradise.
4. maybe the prison was in heaven.
5. need time to think of other possibilities.

Der Alte · May 29, 2008

2ducklow said:
[SIZE=-1]UH oh. time to rethink, regroup.............Ok, several possibilites open up.
1. Jesus meant that eventually the theif on the cross would be with him in heaven/paradise.
2. there are several paradises,
3. the prison where the followers of Noah who didn't go all the way were imprisoned and where Lazerus was when talking to the rich man, isn't called paradise.
4. maybe the prison was in heaven.
5. need time to think of other possibilities.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]1. Jesus said "today," not "some day."
2. There is only one paradise mentioned in scripture.
3. Hell is never called prison and prison is never called hell in scripture.
4. Jesus was never in hell or in prison.
5. You said it.

Part of Jesus earthly ministry was to "preach deliverance to the captives" Luke 4:18. [/SIZE]

2ducklow · May 29, 2008

Der Alter said:
[SIZE=+1]1. Jesus said "today," not "some day."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]2. There is only one paradise mentioned in scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]3. Hell is never called prison and prison is never called hell in scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]4. Jesus was never in hell or in prison.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1] Sure he was.[/SIZE]

1 Peter 3:18-19 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison,

1 Peter 3:20 that aforetime were disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water:

So the prison, whatever prison that be, had to be a prison that Christ visited after he died, cause the disobedient to Noah weren't around when Jesus lived on earth. but like you said,

deralter said:
Perhaps you forgot about, or didn't even know existed, the scripture ....

deralter said:
[SIZE=+1]5. You said it.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Part of Jesus earthly ministry was to "preach deliverance to the captives" Luke 4:18. [/SIZE]

2ducklow · May 29, 2008

Logicalthinker said:
You talk like you know the religion. But as soon as you say silly things like this, your ignorance is apparent.

I worked side by side with a very devout JW, and we debated theology most every day.

logical said:
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded

We have a very personal relationship with our father and the Christ.
Why do we pray all the time? We pray to Jehovah because we are close to him. If it was all about knowledge why pray?

YOu obviously do not know what JW's teach about John 17.3, they change it to "take in knowledge of" and teach that you cannot know God. that's what several JW's in the know have told me. look in your JW NWT.

logical said:
Your just making stuff up now.

Do you read the bible? It is not a man made commandment. It is scriptural.

Mica 4:1 1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

that time hasn't come yet.

that's the millinium after Christ return on the mt. of Olives.

logiocal said:
Notice that in the last days. Last days. People will come to him and learn his ways and will learn war no more, Nation will not rise against nation.

Than if you read further you see that he judges the nations. After his kingdom is on Earth. Than the earth will go through pangs. Plus remember this is all in the last days. Just like it says in 2 Timothy 3:1. Last days.

The millinial kingdom hasn't begun yet.

logical said:
Mica 4:10 Be in pain, and labour to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail: for now shalt thou go forth out of the city, and thou shalt dwell in the field, and thou shalt go even to Babylon; there shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies. 11 Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, Let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion. 12 But they know not the thoughts of the LORD, neither understand they his counsel: for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor.

the woman is the church and she is labouring to bring forth the man child which is the perfected body of believers also known as the b ride of Christ, it hasn't happened yet either.

logical said:
See after his kingdom is on earth than his people will go forth even to Babylon. Many nations gather against thee. Hmm. His kingdom will be on earth when nations gather against him trying to defile it. Of course they won't be able to.

I did show you. Plus I have said Jesus will Save the just and the unjust. Do you read what I say? But why take any chances. Why not fall in line with him completely. Giving up the world around us. Why not? What's the big deal? I choose not to be a spreader of lies. If it is not in the bible. Why say it.

False religions say People go to Heaven or Hell the instant they die, It is ok to go to a far off land and kill people, Trinity, Baby baptizing, and on and on. Why be part of the spreading of unscriptual things?

Here I will show you again what one must do. They must wash themselves clean.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

You have to wash your self clean. You can't be part of those things anymore. Notice it does say don't be deceived. None of those qualities will be allowed in God's Kingdom. None, not even a little. Don't be deceived. What is it false religions say "All you have to do is believe in Jesus"
It takes a little more than just believing. To believe he is everything he said he was.
The demons believe, will they be saved?

We have been warned not to be deceived.

If a religion does not follow the doctrines in the bible, it is a false religion. Prove to me, with scripture, that God just doesn't care what his churches teach?

Ok. Than how come you know nothing of the 144,000, that we were not to learn war anymore, love your enemy, and vengence is the lords. Plus you make silly remarks like "Don't read the OT if you can't watch violent movies."
Does the OT glorify Jehovah? Yes.
Does violent movies glorify Jehovah? No.
It is a no brainer to followers of Christ. What glorfies God and what does not. Pretty easy stuff.

Now you are just making stuff up again. I am 100% JW. Your ignorance of the JWs is apparent.

I'm talking about religions that don't follow scripture. They are false religions. What else would they be if not false religions. God's halfway right religions.

At least we agree on that.

The ones that started all the false doctrines in the church. It all came from the same church and flowed down like a sewer to the rest. Signs of their fallacy is in every church in America.

Again your ignorance of JWs shows itself. Jesus is not God. He is the son of God, just as he said. JW's are Monotheist. People say what ever they want to discredit them. Which alway reminds me of this verse.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

His true people will be hated by all the nations in his name and they will try to deliver them up to be afflicted.

The hatred that is showed to JWs only strengthens my faith. What other Christian religion is hated in his name, that follow scripture.

You say things all the time through these posts that just are not true about them. At least what I say I can back up.

God Bless
LT

Logicalthinker · May 29, 2008

2ducklow said:
that which is perfect hasn't come yet. that which is perfect is when we are like christ and see him as he is.

How do you know? We see the Kingdom growing at an accelerated rate. Kingdom halls are going up everywhere. I showed you all the scripture about his Kingdom being established before the end. Well it has and is growing. We are the only religion that fits those prophecies. We don't learn war, we don't seek vengeance. All other religions are drying up. The Pope and the Dali lama went on tour to try to bring more people to their causes. They see what is going on.

2ducklow said:
no if you read on further you see that the more excellent way is agape love or God's love. the whole next chapter is about agape love, right after the last verse you quoted.

1 Corinthians 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love (agape), I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.

agape is the more excellent way according toscripture.

Ok. I'll buy that. Love is better than tongues. JWs have so much love we risk our very lives to go out door to door teaching the good news of the Kingdom.

2ducklow said:
wrong you change the word, It says they who speak in an unknown tongue EDIFY themselves, Edify doesn't mean glorify..

if you read more in that chapter you see that it is talking about those who lead in prayer.

1 Corinthians 14:15-16 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else if thou bless with the spirit, how shall he that filleth the place of the unlearned say the Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he knoweth not what thou sayest?

You are correct about edify. I was mistaken. I just looked it up and I was completely wrong. Sorry for that. Some times my vocabulary is like my spelling. I get it wrong sometimes.

2ducklow said:
we are to pray with the spirit, that is a commandment and there is no understanding on our part when we pray with the spirit, because he says he will ALSO pray with the understanding. He is not to bless with the spirit, because no one will understand him and they can't say amen to it. People don't say amen to your personal prayer, or the prayers of those around you who are praying along with the one leading the prayer, we say amen to the prayer of the one leading the prayer.
so once again you have falsely interpreted scripture to negate every verse in the NT , and there are many, relating to speaking in tongues.

Tongues are worthless when no one in the congregation understands them. Blah, Blah, Blah. Really doesn't lead to anything. What about the handling of snakes? Or drinking poison? That is in the same place as the tongues verse.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. 20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Plus if you read Mark 16:14 you see he was talking to the apostles. Just like I told you before. It was them that was given these gifts not everyone.

2ducklow said:
these signs shall follow them that believe, not them that be paul and peter. they shall speak with other tongues. tongues isn't languages, its not the word for languages, you change the word again to fit your JW doctrine.

When tongues is spoken. Everyone that is present that believes in the Lord hears their own language. That is what it says in scripture.

Acts 2:7 nd they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

2ducklow said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia

glossa means language, glossalalia means tongues. you change glossalalia to glossa to fit your JW doctrine.

No you are changing the words around, not me. Look. This is E-sword. A translation program. It clearly says new languages. Not Glossolalia as you claim. So yes JWs teach in over 400 languages or tongues or glossa.

Mar 16:17 And1161 these5023 signs4592 shall follow3877 them3588 that believe;4100 In1722 my3450 name3686 shall they cast out1544 devils;1140 they shall speak2980 with new2537 tongues;1100

G1100
γλῶσσα
glōssa
gloce'-sah
Of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specifically one naturally unacquired): - tongue.

2ducklow said:
you showed me what verse????? at least say the verse that you believe i ignored insteead of just "you ignored that verse." no verse says what you say. show me the verse you interpret to mean 'anything new is accursed.

Post 119 is where I showed the verse.

Galations 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

If anyone brings anything to you that was not preached by the apostles. Even an angel, they are accursed.

There is nothing more to add to the bible. Why would speaking in tongues be necessary? And if they did give something new, it is to be accursed.

2ducklow said:
You mock us just as they did at the day of pentecost. You are not in good company on this one. the NT has lots of scriptures about ttongues and you mock us for believeing god's word about tongues, just as they did on the day of pentecost.
tongues is not the word for languages, for the umpteenth time you change the word to fit your jw doctrine. glossilallia doesn't mean glossa. you just change it to fit your doctrine.

My intentions are not to mock you. As a Christian I love you. My style that I type in does not reflect my personality. My grammar is bad, my spelling is bad, and my punctuation is bad.
I don't know how to type with feeling. Sorry if you feel I am mocking you. I am just about talking scripture with people. We don't agree on this point. Doesn't mean we can't discuss it. I will try to be less mocking sounding.

But again the verse in Mark 16:17. It is glossa. I did not change anything. Some bible translations even say language instead of tongues.

English: Webster's Bible
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak in new languages;

English: Weymouth NT
And signs shall attend those who believe, even such as these. By making use of my name they shall expel demons. They shall speak new languages.

English: World English Bible
These signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new languages;

English: Basic English Bible
And these signs will be with those who have faith: in my name they will send out evil spirits; and they will make use of new languages;

I am not twisting scripture.

2ducklow said:
well they said those who spoke in tongues on the day of pentecost were drunkback then too. seems you don't care that you align yourself with the mockers of christianity.

I don't align with mockers. I just don't feel it is done anymore. The bible is finished. Beginning, Middle, and an end. There is nothing more to say. Jesus and the apostles said it all. Plus like Paul said, if any one even an Angel comes with stuff that the apostles did not teach, than they are accursed.

2ducklow said:
Acts 2:13-15 But others mocking (like you) said, They are filled with new wine. But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose; seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

These were people that did not believe in the Christ. I do. I am not aligned with these people.

2ducklow said:
wrong. one message one interpeter. it happens in my church all the time. sometimes, rarely, no one interpets, but that is because the one God chose to interpet isn't obeying. so they give the mesage again and wait for an interpretation, in my church it neverhas gone past 2 times that I recall but if no one will interpert after 3 times then you are suppose to quit, but that has never happened that I recall. almostalways, someone immediately (like withn 15 seconds or less) inteprets.

If that is what happens to you, than fine. I will take your word for it. I have probably seen it a couple of hundred times. I just have never seen anyone make sense of it. No one has ever interpreted what they said around me. There were at least 200 people in the congregation at the St. Maries Baptist Church.

2ducklow said:
telling us that we all got false religons is the same as saying we are not christians and are lost, it is tantamount to saying we have lost the way. and are unsaved. You don't say if you know God the father and Jesus u have eternal life, I do, so you negate the word (john 17.3) with your JW theology. I accept the word JOHn 17.3. and say if you know God the fahter and jesus you have eternal life.

I am not saying you don't believe in Christ. and I am not saying you are lost. Jesus will do the judging.
But Churches have no excuses. They are who we go to for spiritual food. When a church has a Halloween party in the church or an easter egg hunt, what are you suppose to think. They going against scripture and inviting unholy things into the church. They are misleading people into thinking these practices are ok. That makes the church a false religion. People should recongnize that and get out of it. Or see it as wrong and not except those practices in the church. Change is necessary when the church is teaching unholy things.

2ducklow said:
you have a false gospel unless you can say that if you know god the father and Jesus you have eternal life.

We do not have our own gospel. It is the same one you read. We know Jehovah and his son Jesus very well. And what we teach is the promise of eternal life. Really not to far off. We don't beleive in Hell, We don't beleive in the immortal soul. Every one dies, but through the blood of Christ is the only way to eternal life. No other way. If there was no christ. Adam had murdered us all and we would be dead.

2ducklow said:
Don't know never saw them never heard of them , what did you think of the movies? i did see texas chainsaw masacre thought one time, long after it had been out. Not my cup of tea, i don't watch movies like that, but I do like war movies, like patton, or au revoir les enfants, or anymovie about ww2 especially. I like detective whodunits, and watch romance movies with my wife,(just to please her but don't tell her). God hasn't voncited me that I'm doing anything wrong and I don't believe that I am.

I have never seen them. They don't look appealing to me. I am more of a sci-fi buff. I don't like movies that show humans enjoying and taking pleasure in killing others. It really offends me. We should all just love one another.

2ducklow said:
what's the difference in reading about the wars were David slew his 10,000s and watching a moive about it? no real differnce cause reading about it you visualize it in your head. same thing, I know 10000 people in a movie aren't really diieing, they are just acting. so if someone acts dead, like kids do in the play games, then it's a sin to see him do it? same thing as a movie, only not as good at acting.

The OT gloifies God. So the OT is ok. Plus you are correct that the actors are not really dead. The movies you watch don't sound like the same hacker slasher films I'm talking about. Your movies sound like they're based on history. Not taking pleasure in torturing humans. Also these kinds of movies breed violeance. The statistics are there and numbers never lie. Kids kill kids now a days, just because they don't get along. Where was the good old days where they just met out back and socked each other around a little.

2ducklow said:
and if a crazed man with came in with a gun and started blowing your whole family away, you wouldn't stop him even though you had a loaded pistol in your hand. I'm here to say, i wouldn't hesitate at all.BLAM BLAM BLAM. i saved my family, and you lost yours.

I don't own pistols. I do have hunting rifles. Good luck getting them with my bolt action 30-0-6. Plus I would try to keep control of the situation. Give the gun man everything he wants. In an interveiw with inmates they said they just want the stuff. They are not out to kill people. Plus I would put my trust into Jehovah. Those who live by the sword die by the sword and we are not to make war anymore. I take these commandments very serously.

Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

2ducklow said:
I'm annointed of God also, and am not one of the 144.000.

I encourage you to study more about the 144,000. It is not in the bible as filler. It really means something

God Bless
LT

Logicalthinker · May 29, 2008

2ducklow said:
I saw a video on youtube once where these 2 Mormon missionaries were witnessing door to door, and these two teens threw water ballons at them, well the mormon guy started cussing them out. So that proves that witnessing is wrong. Using your logic that is.

Shame on the people that threw the water balloons at them. I don't agree with the Mormons. But I treat everyone the way I want to be treated. Remember the golden rule. I always invite them in for some good old bible reading. They never come back though. If I was them I would have not cussed at the people and I would have returned wearing a rain coat. It would at least get a chuckle out of them. Hopefully.
Plus it is in the bible to go door to door.

Mathew 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mathew 10:11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

This one says go to the house to house.

Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,

You said, "So that proves that witnessing is wrong. Using your logic that is."

My logic is sound. We are to go house to house preaching the good news of the kingdom.
Everything we do is scriptural. If it is not in the bible, we don't do it. If it is in there, we treat it as inspired by Jehovah himself

2ducklow said:
[ perhaps you forgot the scripture about "verily verily I say unto you, today thou shalt be with me in paradise."? Jesus did not go to heaven when he died he went to paradise. Jesus also went in the heart of the earth after he died. add the two together you get paradise is in the heart of the earth. that's my proof.

No I know that scripture and the one about Jonah. What you are saying that Jesus was in Hell Paradise. These two words are never together in any scripture. Where does it say that he was in a hell paradise. If there is a scripture that talks about this very thing show me. Heart of Earth does not mean a paradise in hell. and the other verse does not say paradise in hell.

God Bless
LT

Denial of the Trinity doctrine

angel duck

Well-Known Member

angel duck

Contributor

angel duck

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

angel duck

angel duck

Logicalthinker

Guest

Logicalthinker

Guest

angel duck

angel duck

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

angel duck

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

angel duck

angel duck

Logicalthinker

Guest

Logicalthinker

Guest

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency