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ralliann

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The ones who had been under 20 years old when they left Egypt survived to enter the Promised Land. Circumcision was on the 8th day, so that whole generation should have been circumcised as they left Egypt, if they were still being circumcised. There is no text saying that circumcision was still going on in Egypt.
Trying to kill all the males,,,
15 ¶ And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
16 And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.
18 And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive?
19 And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them.


5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.

Those born to those who came out were circumcised, they did not circumcise their Children who were born in the wilderness. They wandered 40 years until that Generation that came out died.
 
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RDKirk

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I guess I really don't understand this "born again" thing, because I can't figure out why that would involve backing the State of Israel against your own country.

I understand, as an atheist, why you might not grasp this basic religious principle. For Christians—whether born-again, Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox—the biblical teaching is straightforward: Christians place their allegiance to God and the Kingdom of God above everything else. Anyone who prioritizes themselves or their country over God's kingdom and commands cannot truly be a follower of Christ.
You kind of leaped a couple of conclusions there.

"Christians place their allegiance to God" does not automatically equal "backing the State of Israel."

God protects Jews as a people, but He has arranged for the state of Israel to fall by His will more than once even within scripture.
 
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RDKirk

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5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.

Those born to those who came out were circumcised, they did not circumcise their Children who were born in the wilderness. They wandered 40 years until that Generation that came out died.
Okay, you're right about those being circumcised in Egypt. But:

Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness, and all of you who were numbered in the census, from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against Me. Not one shall come into the land where I swore that I would make you dwell, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun. But your little ones, whom you said would become a prey, I will bring in, and they shall know the land that you have rejected. -- Numbers 14

So, those who were too young to be counted as fighting men at the time they entered the wilderness survived to enter Canaan, and they would have been circumcised.
 
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ralliann

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Okay, you're right about those being circumcised in Egypt. But:

Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness, and all of you who were numbered in the census, from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against Me. Not one shall come into the land where I swore that I would make you dwell, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun. But your little ones, whom you said would become a prey, I will bring in, and they shall know the land that you have rejected. -- Numbers 14

So, those who were too young to be counted as fighting men at the time they entered the wilderness survived to enter Canaan, and they would have been circumcised.
Yes, and those Children going uncircumcised is what this means IMO
Nu 14:33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

And Joshua circumcising them, the rolling away the reproach of Egypt....
Jos 5:8 And it came to pass, when they had done circumcising all the people, that they abode in their places in the camp, till they were whole. {they had … : Heb. the people had made an end to be circumcised }
9 And the LORD said unto Joshua, This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you. Wherefore the name of the place is called Gilgal unto this day. {Gilgal: that is Rolling }
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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You kind of leaped a couple of conclusions there.

"Christians place their allegiance to God" does not automatically equal "backing the State of Israel."

God protects Jews as a people, but He has arranged for the state of Israel to fall by His will more than once even within scripture.

You're right; allegiance to God and support for Israel are separate. My point is that when biblical commands conflict with patriotism, Christians should prioritize scripture, even if it opposes their nation.

If a Christian believes that supporting the State of Israel is a biblical mandate or aligns with the Kingdom of God—especially when their own country's position differs—a true Christian should support Israel over their nation's policy. Conversely, if a Christian views Israel as a political entity and does not believe that opposing it contradicts biblical principles, they may choose to disagree with the State of Israel. Ultimately, this decision depends on each individual's interpretation of scripture.

A true Christian should prioritize biblical principles over personal or national views. Since we each have different interpretations of scripture, I cannot claim mine is right and yours is wrong; only the Holy Spirit provides true understanding.
 
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ralliann

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Okay, you're right about those being circumcised in Egypt. But:

Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness, and all of you who were numbered in the census, from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against Me. Not one shall come into the land where I swore that I would make you dwell, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun. But your little ones, whom you said would become a prey, I will bring in, and they shall know the land that you have rejected. -- Numbers 14

So, those who were too young to be counted as fighting men at the time they entered the wilderness survived to enter Canaan, and they would have been circumcised.

There were none younger they were cast out (exposed) to die...
Acts 7:17 ¶ But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,
18 Till another king arose, which knew not Joseph.
19 The same dealt subtilly with our kindred, and evil entreated our fathers, so that they cast out their young children, to the end they might not live.
20 In which time Moses was born, and was exceeding fair, and nourished up in his father’s house three months: {exceeding fair: or, fair to God }
21 And when he was cast out, Pharaoh’s daughter took him up, and nourished him for her own son.

This was being done at the time Moses was born....Aaron was not cast out....But by the time of moses birth this was happening

5 ¶ And the daughter of Pharaoh came down to wash herself at the river; and her maidens walked along by the river’s side; and when she saw the ark among the flags, she sent her maid to fetch it.
6 And when she had opened it, she saw the child: and, behold, the babe wept. And she had compassion on him, and said, This is one of the Hebrews’ children.
7 Then said his sister to Pharaoh’s daughter, Shall I go and call to thee a nurse of the Hebrew women, that she may nurse the child for thee?


By the way....
5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.

By the way....
7 And their children, whom he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.

Moses was hid three months.
Pharaoh's daughter SAW He was a Hebrews child.


5 ¶ And the daughter of Pharaoh came down to wash herself at the river; and her maidens walked along by the river’s side; and when she saw the ark among the flags, she sent her maid to fetch it.
6 And when she had opened it, she saw the child: and, behold, the babe wept. And she had compassion on him, and said, This is one of the Hebrews’ children.
7 Then said his sister to Pharaoh’s daughter, Shall I go and call to thee a nurse of the Hebrew women, that she may nurse the child for thee?
 
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Hans Blaster

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I understand, as an atheist,
No, as a Catholic "born again" made no sense to me.
why you might not grasp this basic religious principle. For Christians—whether born-again, Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox—the biblical teaching is straightforward: Christians place their allegiance to God and the Kingdom of God above everything else. Anyone who prioritizes themselves or their country over God's kingdom and commands cannot truly be a follower of Christ.
None of which has anything to do with the State of Israel (b. 1948).
 
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Oompa Loompa

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I am an American citizen by birth and a born-again Christian. If there were ever a war between Israel and the USA, I'm unsure which side I would support. Does this uncertainty mean I should lose my citizenship?
Are you going to actively support Israel's war effort against the United States? If yes, you wouldn't lose your citizenship. You would be tried for treason.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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A naturalized citizen has just as much right to oppose any war the United States enters as a native born citizen.
Sure. But if they choose to actively support the enemies of the United States, they would be tried for treason, and at a minimum, should be deported.
 
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RDKirk

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You're right; allegiance to God and support for Israel are separate. My point is that when biblical commands conflict with patriotism, Christians should prioritize scripture, even if it opposes their nation.

If a Christian believes that supporting the State of Israel is a biblical mandate or aligns with the Kingdom of God—especially when their own country's position differs—a true Christian should support Israel over their nation's policy. Conversely, if a Christian views Israel as a political entity and does not believe that opposing it contradicts biblical principles, they may choose to disagree with the State of Israel. Ultimately, this decision depends on each individual's interpretation of scripture.

A true Christian should prioritize biblical principles over personal or national views. Since we each have different interpretations of scripture, I cannot claim mine is right and yours is wrong; only the Holy Spirit provides true understanding.
I would point out, also, that Israel does have an opposition party. What if one is agreement with Israel's opposition party?
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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No, as a Catholic "born again" made no sense to me.

None of which has anything to do with the State of Israel (b. 1948).

I bat it doesn’t make sense to you that that a virgin could give birth to a child who later called himself the Son of God, died on the cross, and was resurrected three days afterward.

How can I explain you that prophet Ezekiel predicted around 590 BC that the Jewish people would be gathered from all corners of the earth to form a nation. This prophecy, delivered by God to Ezekiel nearly 2,500 years before Israel became a modern state in 1948.

As an atheist who does not believe in God or the authenticity of Biblical writings, I recognize that our perspectives on this matter differ considerably. Given these fundamental differences, I do not see value in debating this issue further. I respect your right to hold your beliefs, and I will continue to adhere to my convictions.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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I would point out, also, that Israel does have an opposition party. What if one is agreement with Israel's opposition party?

I agree with you; I never liked Bibi Netanyahu or Likud’s politics. I believe the state of Israel would benefit from having a leader like Yitzhak Rabin or Ehud Barak.
 
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Aryeh Jay

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Alot of American Jew's went to Israel voluntarily to serve in the IDF after the massacre.

Good for them. I have no connection to the State of Israel, I am a United States citizen.
1000012672.jpg
 
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Hans Blaster

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I bat it doesn’t make sense to you that that a virgin could give birth to a child who later called himself the Son of God, died on the cross, and was resurrected three days afterward.
That's not at issue here. (Nor can I discuss it properly within the restrictions placed upon me to not criticize your religion.)
How can I explain you that prophet Ezekiel predicted around 590 BC that the Jewish people would be gathered from all corners of the earth to form a nation. This prophecy, delivered by God to Ezekiel nearly 2,500 years before Israel became a modern state in 1948.
Probably because it happened within 50 years, which is what Ezekiel was actually prophesying -- the return from exile in Babylon.
As an atheist who does not believe in God or the authenticity of Biblical writings, I recognize that our perspectives on this matter differ considerably. Given these fundamental differences, I do not see value in debating this issue further. I respect your right to hold your beliefs, and I will continue to adhere to my convictions.
This isn't abut biblical authenticity or interpretation. The question outstanding is what is it about being "born again" (again a term that was completely meaningless to me when I was a mass attending Catholic and heard it for the first time) would make you support the secular State of Israel over your own country? How is this relation to Israel different for not being "born again" and what does it have to do with being Christian at all?

(My people had to endure being called disloyal because they still used the language of the Kaiser in their church services and accusations that they would be "loyal to the pope".)
 
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ralliann

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Good for them. I have no connection to the State of Israel, I am a United States citizen.View attachment 374556
So you didn't, this is not about your personal choice. It is about choice as far as the Israeli government was concerned...The issue is Jews could have, just like any other Israeli
 
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DaisyDay

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So you didn't, this is not about your personal choice. It is about choice as far as the Israeli government was concerned...The issue is Jews could have, just like any other Israeli
No, this thread about denaturalization is NOT about Israel or what its government decides; it is about the United States and the current administration's considering how it can strip American citizenship from Americans. One poster mentioned that the administration was considering banning dual citizenship. Since the American government cannot strip anyone of their foreign citizenship, they can only stipulate that anyone having dual citizenship either drop the other one, including Israeli, or lose their American one.

I don't know why this same moot point continues to be argued.
 
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