Demons, the scientific method.

[AV1611VET]

Because, according to AV, science is short sighted
(honestly he gave his reason in his post)

To be honest, Corvus, I edited that part in as Thaum was typing his response.

He probably never saw it.

I just didn't reply to his post, thinking he would see it; but I guess not.

Of course, he may be using the word "myopic" to mean lacking tolerance, or lacking understanding.

Shortsighted.

The same word could be thrown back at him, most theists, or heck most religious beliefs in general.

I'd duck!

I dunno, it's almost always a semantic game with him
(still love ya, AV! )

-- Thank you! And I you!

 

[thaumaturgy]

To be honest, Corvus, I edited that part in as Thaum was typing his response.

He probably never saw it.

I just saw it. I suppose the same could be said about Christians who simply are myopic about the reality of Zeus. Is that why you don't worship Zeus? Because of your myopia?

 

[AV1611VET]

I just saw it. I suppose the same could be said about Christians who simply are myopic about the reality of Zeus. Is that why you don't worship Zeus? Because of your myopia?

Ya -- that's cute, Thaumaturgy.

Do you have a better answer?

If not, I submit that the answer I gave him should have been your answer as well; instead of that cutsey remark about the 300R.

Maybe it's time you educatees start admitting science's weaknesses, or people like me will do it for you, ridicule notwithstanding.

 

[roach]

To explain further of the theology. In the bible it mention fallan angels, demons, and devils, i believe that these are diffrent concepts, devils means billy goat, demon means knowing one, and fallen angles are those angels rebelling against God.

I believe that when angels fall they become dragons, and sorcers give these dragons human blood so that they can tape the soul of a human, when a shark, krokodile, or aligator or another fallen angel has controll over it.

To make myself clear, Yes, i believe that sharks are sea dragons, krokodiles and aligators are flooddragons i believe that these are fallen angels, who can be visible in human form, when they have drunken the soul of a human, the blood. To expand further, i believe they are visible when people use the the same blood when devoloping motionpictures or just media pictures!

This can be varified. thus demons is proven to exist!

Soul sucking angles and invisible sea dragons... this place is Awesome!!!! I'm taking the whole family there for vacation next year... dog's coming, too.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Ya -- that's cute, Thaumaturgy.

Do you have a better answer?

nope.

If not, I submit that the answer I gave him should have been your answer as well; instead of that cutsey remark about the 300R.

Oh, again, that was a bit of a joke. Actually a "joke" all the way.

The great thing about your answer is that it avoids the real problems which is:

If demons or evil spirits are "real" and they can have interactions with the real world then why wouldn't they at least be amenable to testing in the real world?

That's the whole point of it, right?

If God or angels or demons had nothing whatsoever to do with the "physical world" we wouldn't have these discussions, right? Presumably these things can and do interact with the real world.

If I see a shadow of a person cast on a wall I can test for the existence of that shadow. I can measure reflected light intensity on the wall, I can even test to see how shadows are cast and while I may not be able to see the person I at least can test for something about them...even if it's just their shadow.

But when it comes to things about the supernatural that presumably can interact with the material universe, suddenly we can't even test one little thing about them!

So I am left to ask the question:

If something, by someone's claim, has an impact on reality but cannot be tested by anyone else, what is the difference between that thing and something purely imaginational?

NOTE: I am not making any claims about reality of the item or not. But when you claim that science is too myopic to test for these things, then how do you know they are real?

You are clearly superior to science in this aspect. Somehow God interacs with reality in such a way that YOU know he is real. So tell us how you do it so we might all be able to test it.

Or just rely on the usual dodges:

1. You have to test it with your soul and "believe" before you can see
2. You can't test God, he doesn't allow that
3. etc.

Maybe it's time you educatees start admitting science's weaknesses, or people like me will do it for you, ridicule notwithstanding.

I have already admitted sciences weaknesses so many times (you of all people should know that and you should admit that I have done so many, many many times on this board, lest you be on the verge of bearing false witness against me).

The bigger question is: why doesn't religion have a "weakness"?

No, religious faith knows all things inerrantly. No questions asked. Nor should they be asked.

 

[AV1611VET]

If God or angels or demons had nothing whatsoever to do with the "physical world" we wouldn't have these discussions, right? Presumably these things can and do interact with the real world.

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

 

[Jazer]

Is that why you don't worship Zeus?

What do you know about Zeus?
Have you devoted your life to study
and learn all you can about Zeus?
Just what is it that your wanting to promote here?

 

[thaumaturgy]

What do you know about Zeus?
Have you devoted your life to study
and learn all you can about Zeus?
Just what is it that your wanting to promote here?

I think my point is abundantly clear. There presumably are people who believe just as firmly in other gods as Christians believe in Yahweh.

They dedicate their lives to it. They "feel" the presence of their gods just as strongly.

Now AV tells me that science is too myopic to test for supernatural beings and I am simply curious why religious thought cannot be myopic?

Clearly it can or we would have only one god. One conception of god.

What am I trying to "promote" here?

Maybe I'm trying to moderate AV's pride and hubris. He seems to be the arbiter of all that bears the mote of myopia. I'm just curious if he is willing to consider the potential beam in his own eye.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Well, QED.

I am sure there's no way for someone to have written that sentence without it being absolutely true!

 

[AV1611VET]

I think my point is abundantly clear. There presumably are people who believe just as firmly in other gods as Christians believe in Yahweh.

They dedicate their lives to it. They "feel" the presence of their gods just as strongly.

Now AV tells me that science is too myopic to test for supernatural beings and I am simply curious why religious thought cannot be myopic?

Clearly it can or we would have only one god. One conception of god.

What am I trying to "promote" here?

Maybe I'm trying to moderate AV's pride and hubris. He seems to be the arbiter of all that bears the mote of myopia. I'm just curious if he is willing to consider the potential beam in his own eye.

I don't walk by sight, chief, so myopia has nothing on me.

When I say science is myopic, I mean that literally.

 

[thaumaturgy]

I don't walk by sight, chief, so myopia has nothing on me.

When I say science is myopic, I mean that literally.

And yet you still don't get the point.

You KNOW. Others are ignorant. But YOU KNOW

It is a hallmark of discussion with you: shallowness of thought.

As I've said before, when Christianity turned its back on thought and philosophy and became Evangelical glossalalia and hollow aphorisms chanted to keep the evil away without understanding it became hollow itself.

I honestly do not know what evangelicalism holds for a person who actually values thought.

No offense. Just think of it like your tagline "Science can take a hike". It's not intended to be insulting in the least. I think Evangelicals and Charismatics are gifts from God but when they open their mouths to speak I just wish they'd take a hike.

 

[AV1611VET]

You KNOW. Others are ignorant. But YOU KNOW

Is that why probably 75% of my posts in C&E and P&LS has some form of the expression IMO in it?

Even Rocky at one time got tired of hearing it.

I certainly get tired of typing it.

 

[Freodin]

Is that why probably 75% of my posts in C&E and P&LS has some form of the expression IMO in it?

Even Rocky at one time got tired of hearing it.

I certainly get tired of typing it.

You know what they say about opinions, don't you?

 

[thaumaturgy]

Is that why probably 75% of my posts in C&E and P&LS has some form of the expression IMO in it?

Even Rocky at one time got tired of hearing it.

I certainly get tired of typing it.

Should have typed it in this one:

No -- science is myopic.

But again, your "opinion" of science matters not one whit to those of us who do science. You are scared of science because whenever you fear it starts to say or think or consider something you disagree with (because of your knowledge) you tell it to take a hike.

Which means:

1. You don't understand the foundational concept behind science
2. You DO feel your knowledge superior based on your ignorance of science.

So go ahead and through your opinion out there all you like. Just don't expect it to carry any weight, "chief".

 

[f3n1xhvn732]

Demons, I don´t know if with the scientific method can be searched (a demon is not a physical object or material in nature). But on the other hands Toughtforms do exist. And they seem to be consciuos (my own experience with toughtforms). But don´t take my word here is an experiment search on google: Philip the artificial ghost.
Here is part of the information:

The TSPR, under the guidance of Dr. A.R.G. Owen, assembled a group of eight people culled from its membership, none of whom claimed to have any psychic gifts. The group, which became known as the Owen group, consisted of Dr. Owen's wife, a woman who was the former chairperson of MENSA (an organization for high-IQ people), an industrial designer, an accountant, a housewife, a bookkeeper and a sociology student. A psychologist named Dr. Joel Whitton also attended many of the group's sessions as an observer.
The group's first task was to create their fictional historical character. Together they wrote a short biography of the person they named Philip Aylesford. Here, in part, is that biography:

Philip was an aristocratic Englishman, living in the middle 1600s at the time of Oliver Cromwell. He had been a supporter of the King, and was a Catholic. He was married to a beautiful but cold and frigid wife, Dorothea, the daughter of a neighboring nobleman.
One day when out riding on the boundaries of his estates Philip came across a gypsy encampment and saw there a beautiful dark-eyed girl raven-haired gypsy girl, Margo, and fell instantly in love with her. He brought her back secretly to live in the gatehouse, near the stables of Diddington Manor - his family home.
For some time he kept his love-nest secret, but eventually Dorothea, realizing he was keeping someone else there, found Margo, and accused her of witchcraft and stealing her husband. Philip was too scared of losing his reputation and his possessions to protest at the trial of Margo, and she was convicted of witchcraft and burned at the stake.
Philip was subsequently stricken with remorse that he had not tried to defend Margo and used to pace the battlements of Diddington in despair. Finally, one morning his body was found at the bottom of the battlements, whence he had cast himself in a fit of agony and remorse.
​

The Owen group even enlisted the artistic talents of one of its members to sketch a portrait of Philip (see picture above). With their creation's life and appearance now firmly established in their minds, the group began the second phase of the experiment: contact.

In September 1972, the group began their "sittings" - informal gatherings in which they would discuss Philip and his life, meditate on him and try to visualize their "collective hallucination" in more detail. These sittings, conducted in a fully lit room, went on for about a year with no results. Some members of the group occasionally claimed they felt a presence in the room, but there was no result they could consider any kind of communication from Philip.
So they changed their tactics. The group decided they might have better luck if they attempted to duplicate the atmosphere of a classic spiritualist séance. They dimmed the room's lights, sat around a table, sang songs and surrounded themselves with pictures of the type of castle they imagined Philip would have lived in, as well as objects from that time period.
It worked. During one evening's séance, the group received its first communication from Philip in the form of a distinct rap on the table. Soon Philip was answering questions asked by the group - one rap for yes, two for no. They knew it was Philip because, well, they asked him.
The sessions took off from there, producing a range of phenomena that could not be explained scientifically. Through the table-rapping communication, the group was able to learn finer details about Philip's life. He even seemed to exhibit a personality, conveying his likes and dislikes, and his strong views on various subjects, made plain by the enthusiasm or hesitancy of his knockings. His "spirit" was also able to move the table, sliding it from side to side despite the fact that the floor was covered with thick carpeting. At times it would even "dance" on one leg.

That Philip was a creation of the group's collective imagination was evident in his limitations. Although he could accurately answer questions about events and people of his time period, it did not appear to be information that the group was unaware of. In other words, Philip's responses were coming from their subconscious - their own minds. Some members thought they heard whispers in response to questions, but no voice was ever captured on tape.
Philip's psychokinetic powers, however, were amazing and completely unexplained. If the group asked Philip to dim the lights, they would dim instantly. When asked to restore the lights, he would oblige. The table around which the group sat was almost always the focal point of peculiar phenomena. After feeling a cool breeze blow across the table, they asked Philip if he could cause it to start and stop at will. He could and he did. The group noticed that the table itself felt different to the touch whenever Philip was present, having a subtle electric or "alive" quality. On a few occasions, a fine mist formed over the center of the table. Most astonishing, the group reported that the table would sometimes be so animated that it would rush over to meet latecomers to the session, or even trap members in the corner of the room.
The climax of the experiment was a séance conducted before a live audience of 50 people. The session was also filmed as part of a television documentary. Fortunately, Philip was not stage shy and performed above expectations. Besides table rappings, other noises around the room and making lights blink off and on, the group actually attained a full levitation of the table. It rose only a half inch above the floor, but this incredible feat was witnessed by the group and the film crew. Unfortunately, the dim lighting prevented the levitation from being captured on the film.
Although the Philip experiment gave the Owen group far more than they ever imagined possible, it was never able to attain one of their original goals - to have the spirit of Philip actually materialize.

The Philip experiment was so successful that the Toronto organization decided to try it again with a completely different group of people and a new fictional character. After just five weeks, the new group established "contact" with their new "ghost," Lilith, a French Canadian spy. Other similar experiments conjured up such entities as Sebastian, a medieval alchemist and even Axel, a man from the future. All of them were completely fictional, yet all produced unexplained communication through their unique raps.
Recently, a Sydney, Australia group attempted a similar test with "the Skippy Experiment." The six participants created the story of Skippy Cartman, a 14-year-old Australian girl. The group reports that Skippy communicated with them through raps and scratching sounds.
CONCLUSIONS
What are we to make of these incredible experiments? While some would conclude that they prove that ghosts don't exist, that such things are in our minds only, others say that our unconscious could be responsible for this kind of the phenomena some of the time. They do not (in fact, cannot) prove that there are no ghosts.
Another point of view is that even though Philip was completely fictional, the Owen group really did contact the spirit world. A playful (or perhaps demonic, some would argue) spirit took the opportunity of these séances to "act" as Philip and produce the extraordinary psychokinetic phenomena recorded.
In any case, the experiments proved that paranormal phenomena are quite real. And like most such investigations, they leave us with more questions than answers about the world in which we live. The only certain conclusion is that there is much to our existence that is still unexplained.

(from paranormal.about.com)

There are better methods for creating a toughtform. But is considered "magick", so I can´t post them here.

I think that demons are one of two:
1.- Ancient toughtforms that roam free and depend in the collective believe on its existence.
2.-Parts of the psyche of the person (Search Jung complexes) that are not accepted, and the worst is "the shadow" (Jung other time)

The third (I not believe in it) is that are entities not discovered by science yet...

But is only my opinion.

 

[AV1611VET]

Demons, I don´t know if with the scientific method can be searched...

That is because science is myopic.

 

[f3n1xhvn732]

So, you stopped when read that?

 

[AV1611VET]

So, you stopped when read that?

Yes.

I did not read your whole post.

 

[f3n1xhvn732]

Read all, is interesting. Well only if you want, of course.

 

[Tiberius]

Can you prove demons with the scientific methods?

For instance if i give a shark human blood, will that shark be able to make himself visible as a human as the sorcerers tape the shark and send him up to land?

Um...

No.

There is no known way to get a shark to appear Human, nor to get it to be able to breathe air.

Given one living being the blood of a second living being so the first gains attributes of the second isn't science, it is magic. Magic isn't real.

And there are no such things as demons. They are beings from mythology, not reality.