Demons - real or not?

Lorre

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Have you tried to cast out demons in Jesus name? Mark Karris makes the point that while people are happy to say they believe in them, they do not act as if they believe by actually trying to cast them out.

My wife is Vietnamese and a new born again believer in Christ. Demons, Angles etc are very real here in Vietnam. We have tried to cast out demons from a family member. She admitted that she had demons and wanted them to leave, and after 20 minutes of praying over her and asking the demons to leave in Jesus name, (She fought us tooth and nail during this) she said "they left" and felt a huge relief. There was a definate change in her for about 3 weeks. But soon she returned to her old ways. She now denies the whole thing and says she is not possesed. We now think that her demons just told us what we wanted to hear and let go of her for a few weeks until we left Vietnam, then they returned to her.

On another occasion about 2 months ago we had a young man staying with us who claimed to be a Christian. After many discussion with him it became clear that he was not and somehow our discussion turned to demons and I asked him if he thought he had a demon? He actually admitted he did ! I was shocked. I began praying over him and he began shacking and was afraid and said he saw the demon beside him. I prayed with him for 15 m inutes or so and eventually gave up. Same thing happened, he was diiferent for a couple days then went back to his usual lies.
In both cases, we think that these people didnt really wan to let go of their demons, they wanted them. It seems ot us that the person needs to WANT them to leave and then Christ can free them. But if the person doesnt really want them to leave the demons might fake a temporary withdrawl.?? Hope that helps. Would love to chat more
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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QUOTE=]My wife is Vietnamese and a new born again believer in Christ. Demons, Angles etc are very real here in Vietnam. We have tried to cast out demons from a family member. She admitted that she had demons and wanted them to leave, and after 20 minutes of praying over her and asking the demons to leave in Jesus name, (She fought us tooth and nail during this) she said "they left" and felt a huge relief. There was a definate change in her for about 3 weeks. But soon she returned to her old ways. She now denies the whole thing and says she is not possesed. We now think that her demons just told us what we wanted to hear and let go of her for a few weeks until we left Vietnam, then they returned to her.

On another occasion about 2 months ago we had a young man staying with us who claimed to be a Christian. After many discussion with him it became clear that he was not and somehow our discussion turned to demons and I asked him if he thought he had a demon? He actually admitted he did ! I was shocked. I began praying over him and he began shacking and was afraid and said he saw the demon beside him. I prayed with him for 15 m inutes or so and eventually gave up. Same thing happened, he was diiferent for a couple days then went back to his usual lies.
In both cases, we think that these people didnt really wan to let go of their demons, they wanted them. It seems ot us that the person needs to WANT them to leave and then Christ can free them. But if the person doesnt really want them to leave the demons might fake a temporary withdrawl.?? Hope that helps. Would love to chat more
[/QUOTE
Yes, and much worse happens daily as well.

As written, (If) When a demon is cast out, it goes wandering for a while, then comes back with SEVEN MORE worse than itself,
and if the "house" (PERSON) is empty, they take over .

There is so little good teaching that most people on earth are under the sway of the prince of the power of the air (the devil). (Ephesians 2).

Yet "hidden" - "officially" professionals deny their existence. So do a lot of churches, OR, if they admit it now and then, they don't realize how many are all around and influencing them, most of the time on earth, most places.

People need a stable, strong, steady faith in Jesus, AND other believers with them DAILY, (preferably), in union with Jesus DAILY , checking one another DAILY, so that no one falls into deception from sin,
as written in Scripture.
 
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Francis Drake

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Every child who can read can tell you what God's Word Says.
If that were true, there would be no need for this forum, and you and I wouldn't have had disagreement about casting demons out of Christians.

So, yes a child can tell you what God's word says, but few, even adults can tell us what God means.
 
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Francis Drake

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My wife is Vietnamese and a new born again believer in Christ. Demons, Angles etc are very real here in Vietnam. We have tried to cast out demons from a family member. She admitted that she had demons and wanted them to leave, and after 20 minutes of praying over her and asking the demons to leave in Jesus name, (She fought us tooth and nail during this) she said "they left" and felt a huge relief. There was a definate change in her for about 3 weeks. But soon she returned to her old ways. She now denies the whole thing and says she is not possesed. We now think that her demons just told us what we wanted to hear and let go of her for a few weeks until we left Vietnam, then they returned to her.

On another occasion about 2 months ago we had a young man staying with us who claimed to be a Christian. After many discussion with him it became clear that he was not and somehow our discussion turned to demons and I asked him if he thought he had a demon? He actually admitted he did ! I was shocked. I began praying over him and he began shacking and was afraid and said he saw the demon beside him. I prayed with him for 15 m inutes or so and eventually gave up. Same thing happened, he was diiferent for a couple days then went back to his usual lies.
In both cases, we think that these people didnt really wan to let go of their demons, they wanted them. It seems ot us that the person needs to WANT them to leave and then Christ can free them. But if the person doesnt really want them to leave the demons might fake a temporary withdrawl.?? Hope that helps. Would love to chat more
This is similar to my experience also.
It just proves how futile it is to cast demons out of unbelievers or people who are not really walking with the Lord.
It also proves that the deliverance ministry is meant for those who are the born again sons and daughters of the Most High God.
 
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Francis Drake

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There is so little good teaching that most people on earth are under the sway of the prince of the power of the air (the devil). (Ephesians 2).
Including most of the church!
Yet "hidden" - "officially" professionals deny their existence. So do a lot of churches, OR, if they admit it now and then, they don't realize how many are all around and influencing them, most of the time on earth, most places.
Or admit they exist, but foolishly believe that they can't touch Christians!
People need a stable, strong, steady faith in Jesus, AND other believers with them DAILY, (preferably), in union with Jesus DAILY , checking one another DAILY, so that no one falls into deception from sin,
as written in Scripture.

You puzzle me Jeff.
To date you have been claiming that Christians can't have demons, yet your own words above prove that they can.
 
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JacksBratt

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They will not be held to one question.

It is written somewhere in the NT, that because of their unbelief, they are already condemned (before they die). They have no defense. There is no sacrifice for their sins. They can in no way repent after death, nor be saved in any way.
I agree to this explanation as well.
 
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JacksBratt

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It's that guys fault. He is giving an image of the christian god. For those who don't know anything about christianity and the christian god, this is what they know now. So it's not their fault. At the same time why would anyone want to associate with a God when you see believers like that, the immediate impression is that they are crazy and preach hate. Your view of "well, just as long as you accept christ" is completely illogical, you really think God is that shallow that all sins are just swept under the rug because you believed in him? You being a good person is meaningless because you didn't believe him.. That is a god of vanity than a loving Father.
Sorry.. although our human logic may put the blame on "That guy"... In God's world... only one person is responsible for your eternal place of existence..... YOU
 
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JacksBratt

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But in the Bible we also read that isn't enough. The Rich asked Jesus about what he should do. There was a life style and call to action involved.
Jesus was telling this person that they basically need to do a 180 degree turn around in their life... Leave their old ways and follow His way.


These things happened and they were christians,
Proof please... You have absolutely no way to be 100% sure that the little lady in front of you at church is a Christian..... let alone some group of historical people.

We can have a pretty good idea of the little old lady.. but only God knows their heart for sure..

You surely cannot know about the people you are talking about in historical events.



What you believe about them is meaningless..

Exactly.. what we believe is only that.... a belief... God knows for sure.


because at the end you need to rationalize why it is good to just let these christians go to heaven with out any justification towards the pain they caused someone.

Salvation is not based on what you did.. whether good or evil... it is not based on anything that you have done... it is only based on the fact that Christ died for your sins and if you accepted His salvation for the sins you have committed.

You could have two twins... one was kind and generous.. the other grumpy and annoying... hurting and disrespecting people.. The first.. denies Christ and goes to hell. The second accepts Christ and goes to eternal paradise...


So in the end, even murder --even burning of innocent people to even children-- now is just "swept under the rug". Because xyz just forgave.

Yes... now you are finally getting it.

So i can burn people because I really think they are demons, and hey.. if I am wrong, they will forgive me because they are in heaven and so will god because despite my superstitious rooted mistake, I still believed in him.

If you believe in Christ.. and you are doing everything in good faith that it is the will of God...

Even if you did it...knowing it was wrong.. but then... at a later time, got on your knees and repented...

Yep.. saved..

Not my rules man. God's.

, there was this serial killer who skinned and ate people.. if so ever the family of his victims forgives him, should the judge with hold justice because of that?

It matters not if the family forgives him.. It matters only if he repented and asked Christ for forgiveness.

And, yes... this "serial killer" can be forgiven and go to heaven.

Come on brother, I understand that you are determined to make sure your protestant beliefs are correct but you know deep down that is completely irrational.

Irrational to men... totally biblical and scripturally sound.

Should God deny those who are asking for forgiveness? How can He do this when the bible says that His shed blood cover ALL the sins of the world?

It is only our human finite minds that cannot fathom this level of mercy and love.
 
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JacksBratt

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We can't always use that as an excuse. We are given by God the ability to think and to use our wisdom, and we can't just use this excuse when we can't show any sense to what we are saying.


We have absolutely no say in the salvation or damnation of others.. nor do we have any say whatsoever in the criteria that is used to determine their fate..Each individual will be judged and given a just verdict. By Christ. Not us.

That is way way way below our pay grade.



But they still accepted christ. Most of these actions where just done because these people were just dumb and they had 0 access to science or even knowing how to read.
And of course they did it out of ignorance, at least for the villagers. You can say what you want about the leaders but the villagers certainly believed it.
So if these villagers just got a pass to heaven with out that being justified then God is not a just and good God. He apparently did not care about the pain, the screams, and the murder.. he just cared that they worshiped him. Whether you realize/admit it or not, this is what you are saying God is. I know you are a smart man, and i can see right through your posts that you do understand the rationalism i am presenting here. Take in note that Christianity has believed in a place/state prior to heaven/hell since the time of the Jews. That is why all the first christian denominations -- including Protestants prior to the Radical Reformation-- believe it.

Ya, you just are not accepting it.... It has nothing to do with the number of sins, the level of evil of your sins, the number of good things you did, the generosity that you showed.. nothing..

Lets make a scenario. Lets just say the gods of the hindus (or any god such as Allah, Zeus..) are the correct/real god.. and the moment you die they send you to hell because you believed in a non-existent god and not them. Do you think that is fair?

If that is their verdict and that they are, in fact, the correct real gods.. then.. I am guilty and deserving of hell....

What is so hard to understand about that? I would have believed a false god...
 
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JacksBratt

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And this is where the problem is. Because here you define an evil god. If god doesn't care about you doing good or you being a good person and only defines your good because you believed in him, then he is a god of vanity.

Really?

I see Him as a just and loving God... No matter who you are or what you have done..No matter how evil, horrid or hurtful..... you can be saved....simply by accepting Him for who He is and believing that He came to this earth, took on a human body and lived a human life... for me.... How great is that?

Now.. on the other hand... Since He came here, took on a human body.. lived a human life... Suffered and was whipped and beaten and hung on a cross for your sins.... and you say "PFFFT.. I don't believe you"... Then, IMO, He is just in saying to you...."PFFT off to hell".


"Getting to heaven is not "how good you are" It is also, not "how bad you are"."
Exactly.


So this god just created us (we never asked to be created) and we are forced to worship him
Nope.... not forced to worship Him... We have free will to be just like Richard Dawkins...

other wise we will suffer something so unimaginable for all eternity..
Nope.. we are already headed to spiritual death due to our actions... not by what we "didn't do" but for what we "did do".

We are not going to heaven because we read some script and sang some song and went to church..

We are going to heaven because.. in our heart.. we understand and admit that we are not worthy of heaven.. but He loved us so much that He left paradise and His Powers as our God.. took on human form.. lived in the restrictions of a human body.. .yep... got hungry, got tired, got thirsty, got sick... sore feet, sore back, splinters... and all the other stresses of life...

All of this.. so He could die... don't you get it.. He came to Die.... For my sins...

So, I admit that I am deserving of death.. but worship Him because he is my savior and paid the price for my sins... I admit I am dung... I accept His free payment, that I don't deserve.. for my actions.

and yet you are trying to convince me that this is a loving God and this is the Gospel (good news)?

Gee.... you cannot see that yet?
 
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JacksBratt

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Yes. I've read the Bible. I've read and done all sorts of scriptural to historical studies on him. I study hard to find answers for everything i don't get, and satan is something i can't solve, which is weird since Catholics do consider him fact.. nevertheless I place him in my undetermined list. I can go in detail on reasons for my skepticism, but we are already in a big debate.

Just one thing, that line "satan's main goal is to make people not believe in him" is only from the movie End of Days (and that Anthony Hopkins movie). No where in the Bible does it warn that.
You are right, the bible never says that Satan's goal is to make you think that he is not real... It is a deduction based on his standard methods.
Convince the world that it exists due to random occurrences
Convince the world that there is no need for a designer.
Convince the world that there is no God
Convince the world that there is no Hell
Convince the world that nice people should go to heaven
Convince the world that people who do really bad things never go to heaven.
Convince the world that Jesus was just a man or prophet.
Convince the world that you can do a whole bunch of good stuff and God will have to let you in..


On and on it goes... based on the biblical truths but not written there.
 
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Cis.jd

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Jesus was telling this person that they basically need to do a 180 degree turn around in their life... Leave their old ways and follow His way.
Yes. It's just not "accepting" alone.

Proof please... You have absolutely no way to be 100% sure that the little lady in front of you at church is a Christian..... let alone some group of historical people.
About the villagers voting to have accused witches burned to the stake? It's historically documented. You can see that this village went to church on sundays, prayed during and before, there was also bible verses cited during the accusations, trials, and execution. For those who murdered others under god's name, their biographies are also documented.

And even if you want to just cast doubt due to your bias towards your beliefs.. the point is why would they still go to heaven and yet this god is supposed to be all righteous, loving, and just?

Salvation is not based on what you did.. whether good or evil... it is not based on anything that you have done... it is only based on the fact that Christ died for your sins and if you accepted His salvation for the sins you have committed.
And this right here is where your arguments and just views are straight up wrong and even sad.

If doing good is meaningless then there is no such thing as morals. No matter how good you are as a person, if you don't worship this god then you are going to be sent to forever suffering. You can argue as much as to how this god exists but there is no way that this god is a good god but an evil one.
So the Jews who were murdered in concentration camps are going to suffer again, this time 10x worse and forever because they didn't believe in Jesus. While the Nazi soldiers (who did) are getting a pass for shoving these jews in an oven?
How on earth can a christian argue about Morality to anybody when this is their god?

Yep.. saved.. Not my rules man. God's. It matters not if the family forgives him.. It matters only if he repented and asked Christ for forgiveness.

And, yes... this "serial killer" can be forgiven and go to heaven.

If that is God's rules then there is no rational reason to see him as a good/holy God. His only care is pleasing his own vanity by what you said here.
In the real world, you can't force anyone to love you and here you are illustrating a god who does this. He created you (regardless of not being asked) and now you are under subjection to worship him otherwise you will burn forever.

You are telling me this is the gospel that he told us to preach. The Good news? This is not good news. This is horrific news. and that is why your arguments are unbiblical and also irrational.

If this god just lets his believing - serial killers go to heaven over their non-believing slaughtered victims, then he isn't a just/good god and you have to be that bias to not see that.
 
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Cis.jd

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You are right, the bible never says that Satan's goal is to make you think that he is not real... It is a deduction based on his standard methods.
Convince the world that it exists due to random occurrences
Convince the world that there is no need for a designer.
Convince the world that there is no God
Convince the world that there is no Hell
Convince the world that nice people should go to heaven
Convince the world that people who do really bad things never go to heaven.
Convince the world that Jesus was just a man or prophet.
Convince the world that you can do a whole bunch of good stuff and God will have to let you in..


On and on it goes... based on the biblical truths but not written there.

But there is still no confirmation, so this right here is you building your own conclusion. 'Satan tricking man he doesn't exist' is a line made from movies. In the Bible he never even convinced man there was no God, nor no hell, or anything you said here.

The Bible has satan translated into two differnent words, and these words make it sound that Satan is a metaphor of man's own dark/evil nature. Because even if Satan does exist, we humans have beaten him in terms of evil by a long shot. I'm not fully saying that i am 100% certain that he doesn't exist but there is no theological or practical reasoning behind him.

Why would Satan be alive anyway. You have God destroying evil men in the OT, yet he does not take out the biggest evil that is causing the fall of his own creation?

Then you have the story of him as an angel, falling due to rebelling against God. Was this before man fell, before the garden of eden? I'm hoping you answer this so I can follow up a logic hole in this question.
 
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JacksBratt

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Yes. It's just not "accepting" alone.


About the villagers voting to have accused witches burned to the stake? It's historically documented. You can see that this village went to church on sundays, prayed during and before, there was also bible verses cited during the accusations, trials, and execution. For those who murdered others under god's name, their biographies are also documented.

There are many who attend church, pray, read the bible... and are not Christians. You are not saved by going to church, mouthing prayers or reading the bible. You are saved by accepting Christ.

There are people who do all of this.. in order to gain trust of people and power over them..

Yes.. there probably was Christians among them... However, in the end.. if they believed in Christ.. and admitted their sins... then.... sad but true.. they would be saved.... based on the biblical scriptures and words of Christ..

Was not a thief saved on the cross? A man, condemned to death by men but ascending to paradise with his savior.


And even if you want to just cast doubt due to your bias towards your beliefs.. the point is why would they still go to heaven and yet this god is supposed to be all righteous, loving, and just?

Again.. it is not how evil our actions are... nor is it how righteous our actions are... We are all sinners and all sinners go to hell..

If you accept Christ's gift of salvation, believe on His name and admit you are a sinner... then..... you are saved... no matter what men think.. no matter what the world calls you or convicts you of... God will cover any sin with His blood if the person admits their sin and repents. Period.


And this right here is where your arguments and just views are straight up wrong and even sad.

If doing good is meaningless then there is no such thing as morals. No matter how good you are as a person, if you don't worship this god then you are going to be sent to forever suffering. You can argue as much as to how this god exists but there is no way that this god is a good god but an evil one.
So the Jews who were murdered in concentration camps are going to suffer again, this time 10x worse and forever because they didn't believe in Jesus. While the Nazi soldiers (who did) are getting a pass for shoving these jews in an oven?
How on earth can a christian argue about Morality to anybody when this is their god?

This is because the place you end up when you die is not based on your actions. It is based on your heart.
Did you accept Christ? or Did you reject Him? Did you admit you were a sinner? or Did you think you were good enough? Did you belief that Christ died, in your place, on the cross and that it should have been you up there? or Did you believe that Christ did it for someone else?

We are not saved by being good. Many "good" people.. deny God and Christ.



If that is God's rules then there is no rational reason to see him as a good/holy God. His only care is pleasing his own vanity by what you said here.
In the real world, you can't force anyone to love you and here you are illustrating a god who does this. He created you (regardless of not being asked) and now you are under subjection to worship him otherwise you will burn forever.

Again.. that is your choice. Accept that He left paradise and died for your sins.. or.... don't.

You are right.. you cannot force anyone to love anything.. You must come to love God on your own.. not to gain something. You come to God for forgiveness for being a sinner. Knowing you cannot do anything in your power to save yourself.

He is a Good and Holy God... that is why we cannot exist in His presence.. If we did.. we would die. Unless we are covered by the blood of our savior and found clean and white as snow.

You are telling me this is the gospel that he told us to preach. The Good news? This is not good news. This is horrific news. and that is why your arguments are unbiblical and also irrational.

So, you think that the fact that anyone on the face of this earth, no matter how evil or how many terrible things that they have done... can get on their knees and submit to their creator, admit that they are evil and sinful... and be forgiven.... is not good news? Really?

Or... are you ticked that you are trying to be good and do all this good stuff and some "low life" criminal will stand beside you in paradise?

Are you mad because some really nice person who did all kinds of charity and volunteered and was kind to everyone.. is going to hell because they denied God?

Well...... GET OVER YOURSELF.... You don't make the rules and God said that the only people who will be in heaven are those that believe in Him and His work... So... that is the way it is..

Don't like it.... take it up with Him.

Humble yourself to God..... admit you sinned. Ask for forgiveness and be thankful that He died for you and you are washed clean.

If this god just lets his believing - serial killers go to heaven over their non-believing slaughtered victims, then he isn't a just/good god and you have to be that bias to not see that.

Says you... and what you say.. means nothing..

In all reality.. not many evil people are Christians. Not many people who do these things are saved...If they were true children of God.. they would be convicted of these things and stop and repent.

Also, no matter what this earth puts on your plate... it is not going to spare you from your debt of sin.

No matter how badly you are treated or how much you are tortured.... if you don't believe in Christ.. you will not have salvation.
 
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