Demons, real or imagined?

[Soulgazer]

Where do you find 'unity' in such a belief system where EACH is going to have their OWN heaven?

Isn't it God's heaven that each of is to strive to obtain?

And wouldn't such a belief that each will find themselves in THEIR OWN HEAVEN basically an attempt at making THEMSELVES God? For the only manner in which I can IMAGINE each receiving their OWN heaven would be if it was DESIGNED by themselves.

Blessings,

MEC

Excellent question, and I will endeavor to answer it in a way that will make sense in a logical fashion. First it is an ancient Christian belief, but that's not why I believe it.

(1)I believe that God is Good and is also Love based on all Christian Gospels. In order for this to be true, all of His actions have to be consistent with Love.

(2)I believe that the Gospels hinted at this in a couple of statements--- primarily when they say he said that "The kingdom is within you", and "There are many mansions". Obviously, if there is no longer a need for food or shelter, a literal mansion is redundant, so we should take it as symbolic.

According to ancient sources, the world is but a poor reflection of the perfection of the "heavens". I am making a jump when I say this must refer to the next life, but I don't believe God "lives" in a star system, but that Heaven must be a universe outside of our own. Anyway, we each live in our own "world" and occasionally interact with those that we deign to share our little "worlds" with.

Now, to cast someone alive into a fire, and prevent them from ever dying to the pain is not the mark of a perfect loving God. Maybe there are some who might conceivably deserve it, but to torture someone like that is not an isolated event--- that is, that person would have had someone or many someones who would be mentally tortured along with them; that would be unjust, especially if these people made it to "heaven".

I certainly have never been able to enjoy the simple pleasure of a meal, if someone I loved was going hungry. I would rather I give them my food and go without. I don't know about you, but for me heaven simply could not be paradise if my mother or father, son or grand daughter was being tortured. So, in our "mansions', they wouldn't be. Else non-existence would be preferable. What is the point of living forever if there is no pleasure in it?

I could go on and on, but will assume you now understand the why's, but if I have overlooked a point, I would be willing to clarify it.

 

[Steve Petersen]

As to the OP: Imagined.

 

[daq]

Where do you find 'unity' in such a belief system where EACH is going to have their OWN heaven?

Isn't it God's heaven that each of is to strive to obtain?

And wouldn't such a belief that each will find themselves in THEIR OWN HEAVEN basically an attempt at making THEMSELVES God? For the only manner in which I can IMAGINE each receiving their OWN heaven would be if it was DESIGNED by themselves.

Blessings,

MEC

What if the heavens are the mind and the earth is the altar of the 'adamah-soil of the heart? (see Exodus 20:24 with the Decalogue). If so then it is extremely likely that others who came before you have become totally new creatures in Yeshua and did already recieve the promise of a new heavens and a new earth well before your time. If you find one such as this learn everything you can from him before he traverses without you. Otherwise it may take much longer for your own enemies to be cast out of your heavens.

 

[Imagican]

Soulgazer,

So WHO will you be sharing your love with in a heaven of 'your own design'? And HOW is Christ going to be KING of MULTIPLE heavens?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Soulgazer]

Soulgazer,

So WHO will you be sharing your love with in a heaven of 'your own design'? And HOW is Christ going to be KING of MULTIPLE heavens?

Blessings,

MEC

Christ is already the King of Multiple worlds. Mine, yours, every bodies. It would be a mistake to think you will design your own heaven....it is designed for you, for your sake, for you are not finished. But it will be tailor made and perfect for a developing child of God.

 

[toLiJC]

the evil spirits issued from the "darkness" which is the negative side of the divine - it is the prime substance/nature of evil, all evil spirits are its aspects and appearances, but to be able the "darkness" to enter/settle into the world and to rule there, it needs humans to do spiritual/religious iniquity, otherwise the "darkness" could not reign in the universe

Romans 5:12-14 "by one man(ie by the unrighteous spiritual workers) sin(ie the system of spiritual/religious iniquity) entered into the world, and death(ie and the deteriorations/troubles/ailments/afflictions) by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned(ie and so, many humans passed under the system of spiritual/religious iniquity, some of them as its servants, other of them as its victims): (For until the law(viz. until the human(666) spiritual/religious activity) sin was in the world(ie in the universe): but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression(ie even over those that did not do spiritual/religious iniquity)"

Blessings

 

[Steve Petersen]

the evil spirits issued from the "darkness" which is the negative side of the divine - it is the prime substance/nature of evil, all evil spirits are its aspects and appearances, but to be able the "darkness" to enter/settle into the world and to rule there, it needs humans to do spiritual/religious iniquity, otherwise the "darkness" could not reign in the universe

Romans 5:12-14 "by one man(ie by the unrighteous spiritual workers) sin(ie the system of spiritual/religious iniquity) entered into the world, and death(ie and the deteriorations/troubles/ailments/afflictions) by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned(ie and so, many humans passed under the system of spiritual/religious iniquity, some of them as its servants, other of them as its victims): (For until the law(viz. until the human(666) spiritual/religious activity) sin was in the world(ie in the universe): but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression(ie even over those that did not do spiritual/religious iniquity)"

Blessings

Pure, unadulterated bovine scatology.

 

[toLiJC]

Pure, unadulterated bovine scatology.

is this a scatology also?!:

Matthew 21:23-31 "And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people(ie of the believers) came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him? And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things. But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans(ie the materially rich people) and the harlots(ie and the sexual/roistering people) go into the kingdom of God before you."

Mark 3:1-6 "And he entered again into the synagogue; and there was a man there which had a withered hand. And they watched him, whether he would heal him on the sabbath day; that they might accuse him. And he saith unto the man which had the withered hand, Stand forth. And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace. And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched |it| out: and his hand was restored whole as the other. And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.",

Luke 22:66-71 "And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes(ie and the theologians) came together, and led him into their council, saying, Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe: And if I also ask |you|, ye will not answer me, nor let |me| go. Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God. Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am. And they said, What need we any further witness? for we ourselves have heard of his own mouth.",

Luke 23:1-5 "And the whole multitude of them arose, and led him unto Pilate. And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King. And Pilate asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And he answered him and said, Thou sayest it. Then said Pilate to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man. And they were the more fierce, saying, He stirreth up the people, teaching throughout all Jewry, beginning from Galilee to this place.",

Hebrews 9:22-24 "But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ. And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him: But their laying await was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill him."

Blessings

 

[Imagican]

Pure, unadulterated bovine scatology.

Pretty obvious what 'spirit' would lead one to offer such comments.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Christ is already the King of Multiple worlds. Mine, yours, every bodies. It would be a mistake to think you will design your own heaven....it is designed for you, for your sake, for you are not finished. But it will be tailor made and perfect for a developing child of God.

Well, my friend, I will have to give you this:

You have a VERY unique 'belief system'. One that I have NEVER encountered before.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Steve Petersen]

Pretty obvious what 'spirit' would lead one to offer such comments.

Blessings,

MEC

I suppose next you'll be asking me if I care.

I don't.

 

[Imagican]

The Bible PLAINLY speaks of 'unclean SPIRITS'. I use the word DEMON. I don't really think that a LABEL makes much difference. The concept is much more essential than a label.

And the concept is PLAINLY offered in the Bible. Jesus Christ CAST OUT DEMONS. And Christ empowered His apostles to DO THE SAME. And we have MANY examples of BOTH Christ casting out demons and His apostles casting out demons.

And we also KNOW that some demons are MORE powerful than others. While some were able to be 'cast out' through simply evoking the NAME OF CHRIST, others took 'fasting and prayer' to eliminate their habitation.

Now, the REAL question is: What would lead ANYONE claiming to be a FOLLOWER of the TRUTH to deny what is PLAINLY offered in The Word? I believe that it is the SAME source that influences the 'Churches' to basically IGNORE the subject. And it CERTAINLY isn't 'The Spirit' that would lead one to deny what is offered in God's Word as spoken by Christ and delivered by His apostles.

It is stated that SEVEN demons were cast out of Mary. And all indications are that Mary was a PRETTY AVERAGE or NORMAL person. So if an AVERAGE person could be infected by as many as seven demons, HOW MANY could someone truly EVIL in nature be infected by? It was indicated that "Legion" was infested with as many as THOUSANDS of demons.

There is a parable about a man 'cleaning up his house'. The indication is that this is symbolic of a man COMING to the TRUTH. But as time passed, the man pretty much became unconcerned with GROWING in that truth and became stagnant. And that demon that was PUSHED OUT upon the man coming to the truth, looked back at it's old home and found it to be a "NICE PLACE TO DWELL". So it 'spread the word' and came back with MORE demons even worse than it had been. So the END of the man's situation was WORSE than the beginning.

Of course, those that deny 'demons' exiting to begin with will certainly see this parable as meaning 'something else'. But to ME it is perfectly CLEAR what it is that's being offered. The POINT is that a man can be infected by NUMEROUS demons. And there is also indication that people can be infected and NOT EVEN KNOW IT,,,,,,,,at first.

But it is of a surety that once the demons have amassed enough power over and individual that they are KNOWN by the HOST. A host that may well live in a state of DENIAL to the outside world. But INSIDE they are CERTAINLY aware of their diminishing power over their own thoughts and decisions.

I offer L. Ron Hubbard as EVIDENCE. I offer Joseph Smith as EVIDENCE. Each of these believed that they had PERSONAL ANGELS that influenced their knowledge and understanding. Angels that revealed things to THEM and THEM alone. When in truth, upon a 'tax evasion trial' in which L Ron's son was a witness AGAINST HIM, the prosecutor stated, "so what you are saying is that your father believed in Satan?" the son retorted, "NO, you're not listening, my father believed HE WAS SATAN".

L Ron wrote in personal diaries of his "ANGEL". Obviously concerned with his diminishing capacity to resist it's influence, he wrote numerous entries trying to use positive reinforcement to convince himself of the opposite being truth. Writing things to himself such as, "I do NOT have to follow the suggestions of my angel. I am not a puppet nor am I bound to DO as I am influenced". Such statements to ONESELF offer MUCH insight into the 'spiritual' state of one making such assertions to ONESELF.

Of course to SOME, they would simply write this off to 'mental disorders', (which you won't find me arguing about concerning L Ron Hubbard), but it speaks MUCH LOUDER of someone in 'spiritual straights'. Someone who is SPIRITUALLY 'hacked' and influenced by OUTSIDE sources.

The Chinese have a culture and beliefs that PREDATE anything that exists in the Western World. They are FIRM believers in 'evil spirits'. Almost every religion that has EVER EXISTED recognize 'evil spirits'.

While I do NOT practice what these other religions teach, I certainly recognize the SIGNIFICANCE of SUCH BELIEFS.

Voodoo is nothing other those that adhere to it's practices attempting to APPEASE evil spirits so that they will do THEM no harm. So in essence, over the centuries or compound centuries they have learned to basically WORSHIP 'demons' instead of God. Thinking that appeasing the 'demons' will result in the demons NOT preying upon themselves.

I didn't create this thread from a perspective of ignorance. I have studied this subject for MANY years now. Read dozens of books and THOUSANDS of pages of information in an attempt to UNDERSTAND 'demons' and their place in this world. And I can assure even those in denial that they exist. They are REAL in the 'spiritual' realm as angels or even God and His Son. And not only do they exist in the minds and spirits of men, the Bible PLAINLY describes their existence in MANY separate accounts.

But for any truth that exists, there will inevitably be SOMEONE that will insist upon DENIAL. There are still people looking for Big Foot and still people that insist that the 'moon walk' was staged. While I have a telescope that is capable of offering a VIEW of what was left behind on the moon, (the flag, footsteps, base unit of the lander, the rover etc), there are STILL those that when asked will INSIST that it 'never happened'.

So it is NO surprise that there are those on this very thread that are in denial about the nature and existence of 'demons'. Heck, there are those commenting on this thread that don't believe in the existence of Satan himself.

But the truth exists and whether one denies it or not, the truth doesn't merely 'not exist' by denying it, what usually happens if that such denial 'sets one up' to be a PRIME target for such influence that they are unable to defend themselves against through shear denial. For one CANNOT defend themselves against an enemy that they refuse to acknowledge the existence of. You cannot defend yourself against an enemy that you refuse to believe EXISTS. For those, there IS no enemy and therefore there IS NO DEFENSE.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

I suppose next you'll be asking me if I care.

I don't.

Well now, if you 'don't CARE', then why did you choose to involve yourself to BEGIN WITH?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Soulgazer]

Well, my friend, I will have to give you this:

You have a VERY unique 'belief system'. One that I have NEVER encountered before.

Blessings,

MEC

I can't take credit for it. It is a pre-catholic belief system; it is common through all Christian Gnostic churches to this day.

But thank you anyway.