Demonic possession vs. demonic attack

[heydeerman]

Rose,

I think you saw what you were taught to see and what you wanted to see. When you say you were attacked by a demon do you mean physically attacked? If so then I dont believe it. Not trying to offend although I know this will just trying to be honest.

 

[Amatire]

ok pychmajor, I will try and explain... all I know was that I didnt feel right inside.. I felt like something was inside me. and uncomfortable feeling in the stomach which was to a certain extent causing/contributing to my problems with digestion (I have IBS) when we prayed about it with my church elders the impression we were given was that an old friend of mine had possibly cursed me... she had been bulemic and anorexic and sexually abused as a child she was now suffering from a split personality disorder. We couldnt be sure and I dont want to slander the poor girl but the impression we were given when we prayed was that she had cursed me. She had in a fit of rage wished on me the same struggles that she was facing.... or something similar to that.. like I say I cannot be sure I had lost contact with her by that time but it was her name that came up when we prayed especially in the name "hate" that seemed to connect to the thing inside me. I had a picture of this horrible thing sitting inside my stomach looking like a scorpion with a man's head. It just looked really un natural.

While we prayed I felt like I was being shaken and a discomforting feeling of a battle raging inside me for posession of that part of my body. Then the picture changed to suggest that this creature. which had been attached to my insides by its spike on its tail had let go but it hadnt been flushed out. The event that I spoke about in the last thread took place about 3 months later where God gave a specific word to someone who had never had any experience in this area or any awareness of my previous prayer session that I had a demon that needed to be cast out in Jesus name - associated with bulemia (the guy had previously suspected me of having this problem) - which he obediently did.

The facts as far as I understand them are that because we are all in the process of handing our lives over to God in practice - though not in theory - there are parts of us that we still hold back. God owns those parts too, but he never interferes in us where he is not welcome. he waits for us to open this issue to him for him to work. If we havent handed this part over to God completely that means that it is not in the present under his grace and is therefore exposed to the law. Where we havent handed something over, Satan has legal rights, and if we dont submit to him he is allowed to enter, then if we dont renounce our behavour- our sin then he can squat and then build a stronghold. There are some strongholds that we are not aware of because they are hereditory and have been inside us since before we were born - "the sins of the fathers" remember?

My problem was that I wasnt aware of the curse and the nature of it had touched a sensitive issue within me. so I had given it room.

There is a story I know of a 5 year old child whose mother was a christian and therefore should have been under the protective umbrella of his mother's faith until he was old enough to choose for himself. But dispite this he was approaching other children with sexual advances and explicit language that he had never learnt -he had never been exposed to it - it was so bad that other kids parents wouldnt let him anywhere near them.

His mom went for counselling on the issue and it turned out that before she had become a christian - before her son was born if I remember rightly - she had been involved in sexual "orgies" for want of a better word and she had renounced these when she became a christian and never done anything like it again, but the net result was that her son had inherited a demon from her. After prayer and repentance on her part and prayer over the boy he was released and became a normal 5 year old without any knowlege of sexual matters. just like it should be.

Now if she was a christian, and he was under the umbrella of her faith, why was she still carrying this sin and why did it affect her son in this way?

 

[DeleseRose]

Prase b 2 GOD 4 your deliverance amatire.
heydeerman, i posted several ? that u completely sipped. I would like u to answer them.
There r 2 many christians that have no clue when it comes to the supernatural realm.
Y do u not believe i was atacked?
In attacked i mean that i felt a very heavy force moving very fast around me and the thought that ran trough my mind while this was happening was "how can i get in' Athough my eyes was closed i felt the guy staring at me. I know that what was in him did not want to come out and it was mad because i was in agreement for it to leave so it was looking 4 a way 2 get in me as revenge. But praise b 2 GOD, my doors were closed, GOD was occuping the rooms.

 

[heydeerman]

Rose,

I will do my best to answer your previous posts.

Rose said:

R u familiar with the story of anninias and saphira? What do u think drew them to try and ecieve the people of GOD, acts 5:1-10. who by the way they were apart of. What about paul's thorn in the flesh? 2 corinthians 12:7-10 Furher more we all know that believers can b filled with anger, rage, lust, envy, and even jealousy. We can lie, steal, b unkind 2 othersand we even abuse our childrenn now do u think that this normal. When we give place to the devil it's a way of us giving over the control we give to GOD to the devil..**WE is just used to make the statement personal as not 4 it 2 b distant.**


I say:


Annanias and Sapphira were a cople filled with pride. Pride is a sin. Their actions show that they might not have been saved at all but were trying to buy their way into heaven. This story is similiar to the Rich Young Ruler except in his case he was honest enough to admit his lust for money and things was more powerful than his desire to serve God.

As for Pauls thorn in the flesh. There has been much debate over what the thorn actually was. I dont know what it was so I cannot comment on the nature of the thorn. It does say that it was a messanger of Satan. It doesnt say anything about inhabiting Paul in any way.

I am aware that believers can be what they are. Human beings are masters at sinning. We are self gratifying, concieted, lustful, etc, etc. We cannot stop doing what we do best. Sinning is what comes natural to us. That is why the new birth is a supernatural event. It is something totally outside of ourselves. We have no part in what God does. If we did we could never be saved. Now the next debate...do we stop sinning once we become a Christian?... the answer is obvious. To answer that question with a yes is a sin. If we say we have no sin then we decieve ourselves and the truth is not in us. When we sin, we have a Savior who interceedes for us and gives us the opportunity to confess our sins and He will forgive us.

Rose said:

Our GOD is omni-present(everywhere at the same time), is he not where satan is? Unless satan is where he is'nt but if that is the case then he's not omni-present at all, maybe that's a farse as well.

You answered this one yourself.

 

[heydeerman]

Rose,

You asked why I didnt believe your story about a demon leaving someone and attacking you...

I have heard a lady tell how the Devil himself jumped on her car. I have heard of other chilling stories as well. They as well as your account have no Biblical Basis whatsoever. You have to understand that I have my christian origins in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles and attended Churches where experiences happened to the members often. This is something that is taught and learned and practiced by according to the teaching. Go to a Bible teaching non-charismatic Baptist church and you will not see these things happening among the believers there. This is something that flourishes in the charismatic circles because of their dependence on experiences. In no way would I knock someone because they are charismatis or Pentecostal but this is even admitted by some key figures in the respected movements. I do not believe a demon attacked you. If you had been going to a different church at the time and learning the Bible you would not have this to tell.

Am I saying you are crazy or something??? Not at all. I was in this same delima several years ago. I had experienced things and saw things that I at one time acknowledged were true but I now know they were false and I was sold a bill of goods. Take a good look at what you believe. Examine it hard and look at it throught the microscope of scripture.

 

[psycmajor]

heydeerman
You have a point, but I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Amatire
Yes, praise God for your deliverance. That is really strange. I know that Job got festering boils all over his body.

 

[heydeerman]

The only baby I am throwing out is the point that a Christian can be possessed by a demon. I know those who hold to this belief change to word used for possessed to demonized. this way this word can encompass alot more than demon possession. I do believe someone can be demon possessed. I think a good example of demon possession would be Jeffry Dalmer. There is little doubt there was demonic activity in his life.

 

[DeleseRose]

Originally posted by heydeerman
Rose,

I will do my best to answer your previous posts.

Rose said:

Our GOD is omni-present(everywhere at the same time), is he not where satan is? Unless satan is where he is'nt but if that is the case then he's not omni-present at all, maybe that's a farse as well.

You answered this one yourself.

Please elaborate on what u meant by "You answered this one yourself"
U dont't blieve that he's omni-present or u believe that he is?

 

[Amatire]

when people look at what the sprit is doing in a church and say "that is not God" and use reems of biblical evidence to support it, it is a dangerous pharisaical attitude... out of interest, does it work the other way round? I mean is saying, "that is impossible" mean that one is cutting oneself off from the warnings the spirit might be giving and preventing people from being properly delivered?

you can use the bible to say almost anything depending on the slant of your doctrine or learned teaching.. to a certain extent I am more comfortable listening to the spirit, so long as I do study the bible and keep it in mind.

I have in mind a set of scientists who just said that it is impossible for a bee to fly... so: what, are we all supposed to go round now saying a mantra of "I cant see that flying bee, it doesnt really exist I am just hallucinating" I would rather keep an open mind and allow the spirit to do what He wants to do than throw out any experience indiscriminately... if we are wrong and christians can be affected by demons in this way - though granted not as severely as none christians because the demon is a squatter not the owner of the person - then we are leaving them without deliverence because of our closed attitude...

people have told me that when bad hurting memories keep surfacing I should renounce them because the person who did them to me is forgiven in christ jesus... that is biblical.. but it leaves me with a hurting weal inside that festers away and gets worse not better. God is making it surface so that he can heal me properly through a thorough ministry "session" and free me to forgive properly and be released from the pain of it.. if I just say "thats fogiven" and ignore it then in my heart I still havent forgiven the person because it still hurts... sometimes it takes more thorough work to heal someone.. yes the bible says that christians belong to God and the devil cannot sit where God is.. but that means that we have to take the areas where this is not true to God for him to deliver us, not catagorically and blindly state that we belong to Him and thats that! because that doesnt lead us to the full realisation of the truth, that is taking matters into our own hands and ending up in a state of denial!

so personally I am going to stick with believing that the evil one has strongholds in my life and can - and has had - posession in me in my experience and then go to the saving power of the Lord Jesus Christ to deliver me.. not deny that they are there and therefore allow the situation to continue! One of the devil's tricks is to make us believe that he cant do something he can, then he can just happily get on with it and you will just sit there going "this is impossible therefore the way Im feeling is not real I am hallucinating" and that would make the Evil One very happy indeed!

not saying Im right, just a little worried about it thats all....

 

[DeleseRose]

Amatire, i am awed and impressed at the knowledge u have 4 such a young person . GOD has truely blessed and i pray that he continues to bless u w/ wisdom. U know much more than many older believers i have witnessed to. I have been impressed w/ this subject a few years ago and began to study it. I've had a few experience in this area and i have found that it is in line with the research i have done. I do believe that this area is one of the areas that GOD is pointing me too. It's also is hard to talk 2 christians that r ignorant of this area of ministry and that is open in no way to examine and prove the validity of this subject. I had brought this up w/ the youth head of my church a few years ago and they told me flat out it can't happen until they came face to face with it 4 themselves they did not believe, now they do. B encouraged i understand where u r comming from and we r daily to confess and give over control of our members to CHRIST. Search 4 sin areas in our life and get rid of them. Check out our past. Truly forgive those who has hurt us. There is just so much more to this christian life than many believe.

 

[sola fide]

Satan can also trick you into thinking he has strongholds where he in all actuallity has no authority. Satan has no true authority over us...nor his demons. We are, however, captive to our sinful nature which leads us into sin and sin abundantly...Most problems we have are due to our own nature, not to anything Satan does. Don't give satan more respect than he deserves...now we need only to crucify our flesh (easier said than done) because satan has already been defeated...Christ has given us the keys to death, hell, and the grave....Tell satan to get out of your life then stop worrying about it, Christ has paid your debt.

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[heydeerman]

What Sola fide says is wisdom...totally Biblical. Not based on experience which can be decieving. What he says is truth.

 

[Amatire]

I think there is wisdom in both points of view...
satan will lead you to believe that he has more power
than the reality and therefore paralize people with
fear and make them lose faith in our Saviour's ability
to redeem and set us free. but if the Holy Spirit is
telling you there is a problem, you must sit up and take
notice.. and deal with it properly being guided by him
as to how to go about it. not just say "Jesus is lord
over this, he has paid my debt" without obeying the
nudgings He is giving you on HOW to make him lord over
it. so I agree to a certain extent with both points of
view.. I think we have a lot to learn from each other.
There is a middle ground and that is the healthiest
place to be no doubt!

 

[DeleseRose]

How open r u guys 2 learning?

 

[heydeerman]

Your question seems to make a statement. I have already been down this road.

I am open to learning but I think the Bibles is cut and dry concerning this issue. Christians cannot and are not be possessed by the enemy.

 

[Thomas]

Heydeerman, I agree that Scripture must be the christian's final authority when deciding what's true and what's not, but I don't think we should completely deny experience.

I have been a christian for years, but have suffered demonic attacks. I don't want to describe them, but I'm sure they were demonic, and they were quite unpleasant if you ask. I have only had those weird, explicit attacks twice, the first one when I was practically living in sin. I was back-slidden. In fact, it has caused me to get back to my faith.

Well, I don't want my examples to be taken as absolute truth or final authority over the matters of spiritual warfare.. Scripture should guide us.. But I think that when your theology is way too contrary to experience, perhaps your theology is wrong. I don't believe anyone who related their experiences here is liying. Why would they lie? And I don't believe they were hallucinating.

 

[Susan]

Hi, and I agree with that.

Demonic evil does exist in this world: for example that David Westerfield creep. Is anyone going to tell me that that was mere humanity that came up with that sin?

 

[heydeerman]

I do not deny evil or demons. I stand firm in saying that Christians cannot be possessed by demons. I never denied demonic attacks either.

 

[Thomas]

This is something that flourishes in the charismatic circles because of their dependence on experiences. In no way would I knock someone because they are charismatis or Pentecostal but this is even admitted by some key figures in the respected movements. I do not believe a demon attacked you. If you had been going to a different church at the time and learning the Bible you would not have this to tell.

When I was attacked, I wasn't regularly going to church, but when I did go to church, it was not a charismatic one. I've had experiences... not because I wanted them or relied on them... they just happened.

I don't know if demons can possess christians or not. I'd like to affirm that no, they can't, but I can't be sure right now. But I'm pretty sure that they can attack christians in scary ways, like the ones described above (holding you down and stuff like that).

 

[Julie]

Here is a good book on the subject:

War On The Saints
by Jessie Penn-Lewis with Evan Roberts
World Wide Web Edition (Based on Unabridged 1912 Edition)
http://www.acts1711.com/Contents.html

 

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.