Democrats in the US House of Representatives enraged by Christian pastor's invocation

[Hazelelponi]

And members of the House didn't ask for his church to come to their chamber. It has no pace in the People's House.

Actually he was invited, he was asked to be there, and asked to pray to God.

We do have a specific God, which this pastor invoked during prayer - which you have to do or your just praying to the walls, which isn't helpful. Walls can't answer prayer.

So he prayed, using 150 words, and invoked the name of God and prayed for our nation. As he was invited to do.

Your forgetting he didn't ask to be there, they invited him.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Actually he was invited, he was asked to be there, and asked to pray to God.

Prayers to gods have no place in the people's house.

We do have a specific God, which this pastor invoked during prayer - which you have to do or your just praying to the walls, which isn't helpful. Walls can't answer prayer.

Sounds like a government endorsement of a specific religion (and a faction of that religion to boot.) As for walls, I found they responded to my prayers as much as anything, but that doesn't mean prayers to the wall or anything should be in Congress.

So he prayed, using 150 words, and invoked the name of God and prayed for our nation. As he was invited to do.

Your forgetting he didn't ask to be there, they invited him.

The XNat speaker did, not the body as a whole.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Prayers to gods have no place in the people's house.

Then don't invite pastors to pray to God there.

However historically, the rules are that a prayer to God has to be offered before business. Twas important to the founders.

Sounds like a government endorsement of a specific religion (and a faction of that religion to boot.) As for walls, I found they responded to my prayers as much as anything, but that doesn't mean prayers to the wall or anything should be in Congress.

Our government cannot force people to follow a specific faith - a simple 150 word prayer forces no one into anything.

A prayer is not making a law... It's a simple prayer.

The XNat speaker did, not the body as a whole.

That must have been a terribly powerful 150 words for it to bother the unbelievers so much.

The Spirit of God makes people that uncomfortable does it?

In the Name Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, the Son of God, please Heavenly Father, may your Spirit descend on this place.

Does it hurt?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Then don't invite pastors to pray to God there.

However historically, the rules are that a prayer to God has to be offered before business. Twas important to the founders.



Our government cannot force people to follow a specific faith - a simple 150 word prayer forces no one into anything.

A prayer is not making a law... It's a simple prayer.




That must have been a terribly powerful 150 words for it to bother the unbelievers so much.

The Spirit of God makes people that uncomfortable does it?

Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, the Son of God, our Heavenly Father, may your Spirit descend on this place.

Does it hurt?

It burns! Keep it at home where it belongs.

 

[Hazelelponi]

It burns! Keep it at home where it belongs.

Sorry. I will publicly and unashamedly be a living Christian.

See the Islamic god doesn't like it... And I don't care. I will be a living Christian to the day I die. Even if it's the cause of my death.

And that's my right as an American citizen.

And if you take away that right that's okay to. I will still publicly and unashamedly be a living Christian until you kill me for it.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Sorry. I will publicly and unashamedly be a living Christian.

I am not bothered by it.

See the Islamic god doesn't like it... And I don't care. I will be a living Christian to the day I die. Even if it's the cause of my death.

I don't care about either of those versions of the god of Abraham (or the original version.)

And that's my right as an American citizen.

Your rights aren't being infringed, nor would they by removing prayer from the People's House.

And if you take away that right that's okay to. I will still publicly and unashamedly be a living Christian until you kill me for it.

Check your paranoia. I don't want to kill anyone and certainly not for their private faith.

You are not Congress, you have freedom to worship whatever you want, but they stand for all of us, not just one faith faction.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

That must have been a terribly powerful 150 words for it to bother the unbelievers so much.

The prayer was ok, it was the particular pastor and his history that is the problem.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Your rights aren't being infringed, nor would they by removing prayer from the People's House.

I put up for years with the devil invoking the walls in the People's House... It didn't infringe my rights at all.

Nor did it infringe your rights for Jesus to be invoked.

If they decided to forgo prayer it's their choice, but it's a tradition that's a nice one for everyone.

It's good to remember where you came from, even if you don't believe what they believe.

Check your paranoia. I don't want to kill anyone and certainly not for their private faith.

You just seem terrible upset over a 1 minute prayer... I was simply making a point.

I left Islam to be a Christian and I'm not ashamed of my faith.

You act like prayer in public is some kind of evil. I've prayed in McDonald's before. Christians pray.

You are not Congress, you have freedom to worship whatever you want, but they stand for all of us, not just one faith faction.

That's why they invite many different pastors from many different faith backgrounds. So everyone has a faith representation...

This guy isn't from my faith background but I certainly don't mind him being invited to pray, nor is the prayer itself offensive in some way.

 

[Merrill]

I have a couple thoughts on this

1. Where is the proof that Jack Hibbs is a "Christian Nationalist" or far-right? I haven't seen anything like that in his Twitter feed or blog. I don't even know a single pastor out there who claims he is a "Christian Nationalist"

2. In an effort to keep politics out of religion, I would rather no prayers or invocations in Congress.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I put up for years with the devil invoking the walls in the People's House... It didn't infringe my rights at all.

what does that even mean? I don't know of any devil and what exactly is "invoking the walls"?

Nor did it infringe your rights for Jesus to be invoked.

Are you sure? My government (our government) is invoking a god I don't think is real. Sounds like establishment to me.

If they decided to forgo prayer it's their choice, but it's a tradition that's a nice one for everyone.

Not for everyone. At least 10% of adult Americans don't believe in any god, about 30% don't believe in Jesus.

It's good to remember where you came from, even if you don't believe what they believe.

Where I came from? What does that mean?

You just seem terrible upset over a 1 minute prayer... I was simply making a point.

The point being made (whether you intend it or not, but the Speaker of the House certainly does) is that Christians are still the majority in the US, so deal with it you heathens.

I left Islam to be a Christian and I'm not ashamed of my faith.

I don't know how that is relevant.

You act like prayer in public is some kind of evil.

Official prayer. Official prayer. I don't know why that is so hard to understand. Quit using the power of government to pray on everyone's behalf.

I've prayed in McDonald's before. Christians pray.

I didn't.

That's why they invite many different pastors from many different faith backgrounds. So everyone has a faith representation...

Do you know what happens when a non-theistic invocation is made in these kinds of situations? Christians freak out. (Of course it's never happened in the US Congress, but the freak outs happen when Muslims or Buddhists or Hindus make an invocation. )

This guy isn't from my faith background but I certainly don't mind him being invited to pray, nor is the prayer itself offensive in some way.

As others have noted, the pastor himself was the objectionable part. (They've mostly acquiessed to the notion of a sectarian prayer in each session. Sigh.) But, I was bothered by it when the Chaplain *was* part of my church as a meeting of Congress needs no sectarian prayer.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Are you sure? My government (our government) is invoking a god I don't think is real. Sounds like establishment to me.

No... Your government representatives invited a pastor of what I suppose is a fairly major denomination to say the days opening prayer, as per tradition in the people's house.

Establishment is telling you you have to start attending his church or go to jail.

You don't have to believe in the prayer. It's just words after all.

I'm sorry, trying to deal with the personal for a minute. All sorted.

 

[Hans Blaster]

No... Your government representatives invited a pastor of what I suppose is a fairly major denomination to say the days opening prayer, as per tradition in the people's house.

The information provided doesn't specify what denomination, but the name of the church doesn't sound like it is one of the biggest denominations (So. Baptist, Catholic). But, it doesn't matter what denomination he is not only does he not represent all Americans religion, his invitation by the Speaker violated the House rules about guest chaplains. (Things which shouldn't exist at all.)

Establishment is telling you you have to start attending his church or go to jail.

No. The court is clear. Establishment is using the power of the state to promote your religion or have religion speak on behalf of the state. No "jail" is required.

You don't have to believe in the prayer. It's just words after all.

I don't, but that doesn't give the government a right to speak someones religion under official color. (It should be even more bothersome to those in minority religions than us non-believers.)

 

[Hazelelponi]

power of the state to promote your religion or have religion speak on behalf of the state. No "jail" is required.

The only people promoting it is you.

Just throwing that out there. Your doing more for the promotion of his faith right now than his 1 minute prayer.

His religion wasn't speaking on behalf of the state, the state invited him to say a prayer. That's not promotion of anything.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The only people promoting it is you.

Just throwing that out there. Your doing more for the promotion of his faith than his 1 minute prayer.

How am I promoting his faith? I haven't quoted a single thing he said or specified any specific unexpressed beliefs of his that I object to.

His religion wasn't speaking on behalf of the state, the state invited him to say a prayer. That's not promotion of anything.

Yes it was.

 

[Hazelelponi]

How am I promoting his faith? I haven't quoted a single thing he said or specified any specific unexpressed beliefs of his that I object to

I said your doing more for the promotion of his faith.

See, no one even heard the prayer. No one even knew this guy's name until this whole fit throwing experience.

Now, due to the temper tantrum, people are looking into Christianity, people are debating about it online, people are telling the lost all about salvation in Christ.

That one is on the people throwing a tantrum because someone dared to say the name of Jesus in the People's House.

Keep complaining, I just don't mind.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I said your doing more for the promotion of his faith.

See, no one even heard the prayer. No one even knew this guy's name until this whole fit throwing experience.

Now, due to the temper tantrum, people are looking into Christianity, people are debating about it online, people are telling the lost all about salvation in Christ.

That one is on the child throwing a tantrum because someone dared to say the name of Jesus in the People's House.

Keep complaining, I just don't mind.

Let's start over. There are four things at issue here (and the one we seem to be sniping about is the last of them which is not even a point taken by Representatives, the other three are already detailed in the first page of this thread in posts and in an article i linked)

Issue 1: The guest chaplain was not invited properly under the rules. The rules permit members to make invites to speakers from their districts once per congress. The speaker in question from California was invited the member from the 4th district of Louisiana who had already invited a guest chaplain already this congress. Both aspects violate the rules of the House. This is the prime focus of the Representatives letter (as posted in the early posts of this thread).

Issue 2: The guest chaplain is a vile person who uses his religion to attack the government and segments of the American populous. (The inviting representative has the same problem, so at least he's in bad company.) The articles make note of the nature of this speaker.

Issue 3: The guest chaplain invokes his god specifically rather than making a pretense of invoking generic "god". (Not that any of them actually believe this fig leaf, but this guy doesn't try.) While the prayer itself seems like generic Christian-speak, knowing the openly expressed opinions of the guest chaplain allows a decoding of the generic terms in his speech to his apparent intended meaning.

Issue 4: (not expressed in any article, but an issue I and many others have): Prayer, especially sectarian prayer, has no place at the opening of any secular government body.

 

[Vambram]

Pastor Jack Hibbs is NOT a vile person at all. However, perhaps those are not born-again Christians are unable to recognize Pastor Jack Hibbs in any other fashion. But, I do hope that I'm incorrect with that opinion in my second sentence.

 

[wing2000]

2. In an effort to keep politics out of religion, I would rather no prayers or invocations in Congress.

I agree.

 

[wing2000]

Pastor Jack Hibbs is NOT a vile person at all. However, perhaps those are not born-again Christians are unable to recognize Pastor Jack Hibbs in any other fashion. But, I do hope that I'm incorrect with that opinion in my second sentence.

Who claimed he was a "vile person"?

 

[Vambram]

Who claimed he was a "vile person"?

Please read post #36 "issue 2"