Democracy is the worst form of government...

[stevevw]

A beacon of democracy is fascism, you know, an axe sticking out of a bundle of rods. Promonent examples of democracy in the Torah include the tower of bable, the golden calf worship and the rebellion against Moses. That kind of democracy is a recipe for disaster proven by history, and the founding fathers knew that, therefore the US government was designed as a republic - "if you can keep it.". The three branches of the US government is based on Is. 33:22 - the Lord is our Judge, The Lord is our Lawgiver, The Lord is our King; He will save us.

Are you saying we should live in a theocracy.

 

[Bradskii]

How do you make a democracy better? In the short-term I think Bill Barr's speech at Notre Dame gives many of the keys (Transcript | Video).

I got most of the way through it. Simply a polemic about modern morals, a diatribe against secularism (the US being one of the largest secular states on the planet) and a cri de coeur about the failure of religion. Well, his religion is what Barr means.

I said that I don't think we should bring politics per se into this discussion. Religion has nothing to do with it at all.

 

[Bradskii]

For a simplistic example, a moral citizenry would abstain from stealing or killing even without the motivation of law.

Well, there goes that concept as a reasonable suggestion for how to get a better political system. We don't need one because governments get in the way of personal freedom. Leave it to the people. Except that society degenerates to barbarism without the rule of law. Self determination works in a small group, but once you reach the point where 'us' becomes 'us and them' all bets are off.

Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Are you saying we should live in a theocracy.

No, I'm saying "democracy" is an all encompassing umbrella term that causes confusion. Is America a democracy? Yes AND no. Yes on local level, no on federal level.

 

[Hans Blaster]

A beacon of democracy is fascism, you know, an axe sticking out of a bundle of rods.

Oh good grief.

The bundle of sticks are known as fasces. They are a symbol of strength in unity. Fascism is a political philosophy and movement that also adopted the fasces as a symbol, fascists are not democratic, but they will exploit weaknesses in democratic systems to gain power.

Promonent examples of democracy in the Torah include the tower of bable, the golden calf worship and the rebellion against Moses.

Nope. None of those are democracy. You couldn't even find real ancient examples of democracy out in the real world, instead you go misidentify things from Jewish lore.

That kind of democracy is a recipe for disaster proven by history, and the founding fathers knew that, therefore the US government was designed as a republic - "if you can keep it.".

Oh, not this nonsense again.

The three branches of the US government is based on Is. 33:22 - the Lord is our Judge, The Lord is our Lawgiver, The Lord is our King; He will save us.

Not even close. Why not say the US goverment is based on the triangle, the simplest of regular polygons? Would make just as much sense. You really don't understand the history of my country and its system of government. Perhaps you should stop making claims about it.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Oh good grief.

The bundle of sticks are known as fasces. They are a symbol of strength in unity. Fascism is a political philosophy and movement that also adopted the fasces as a symbol, fascists are not democratic, but they will exploit weaknesses in democratic systems to gain power.

Yes, and that's what you get when a supposed democratic system goes wrong. If you have a power vacuum, fascists naturally fill in.

Nope. None of those are democracy. You couldn't even find real ancient examples of democracy out in the real world, instead you go misidentify things from Jewish lore.

If you don't believe in the bible, then why did you come to this forum?

Oh, not this nonsense again.

Not even close. Why not say the US goverment is based on the triangle, the simplest of regular polygons? Would make just as much sense. You really don't understand the history of my country and its system of government. Perhaps you should stop making claims about it.

Or perhaps you should stop flexing your ignorance as strength.

 

[Bradskii]

If you don't believe in the bible, then why did you come to this forum?

Dunno about HB, but I came to discuss topics such as politics. This thread is about the political system and how to improve it. The thread is not about the bible or religion.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Dunno about HB, but I came to discuss topics such as politics. This thread is about the political system and how to improve it. The thread is not about the bible or religion.

But this forum is a christian forum, isn't it. And as I said many times, a political system is like a computer model, you can improve it as much as possible, but ultimately the output is determined by the input.

 

[Bradskii]

But this forum is a christian forum, isn't it. And as I said many times, a political system is like a computer model, you can improve it as much as possible, but ultimately the output is determined by the input.

So let's find out the best 'model' and how we can insure best input.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

So let's find out the best 'model' and how we can insure best input.

Then you have to assume that whatever system is in place, people will always game the system to maximally benefit themselves, a democratic system can be exploited by election fraud and/or campaign corruption, such as the Super PAC problem I mentioned.

 

[stevevw]

No, I'm saying "democracy" is an all encompassing umbrella term that causes confusion. Is America a democracy? Yes AND no. Yes on local level, no on federal level.

Here in Australia we sort of have a similar system though not a true republic. But local government and State governments have seperate elections and can vote in different parties to the Federal government. So we may have Labor in power Federally but Conservatives in State or local.

Federal is more to do with issues relating to the nation like defence, Medicare, Tax ect. Local government may be issues relating to local issues like bylaws, townplanning, upkeep of facilities and streets. State operates its own education, health and law application though the Federal government may allocate some funding and deal with laws and policy that affects national interests regarding education and health.

Its when one part gets in Federal and State that it seems to be most polarizing or how the major parties get in power with the help of minor parties and independents who have vested interests such as when the balance of power requires their votes. This allows minor parties like the Greens or Nationalist parties to force their ideas on the majority.

But I find that if one party gets in it only takes one maybe two terms before people begin to get sick of them and look for change. This seems to go back and forth and has done for years. Though in recent times people have become sick of the major parties and are looking for something different. Thats usually when the minor parties do well. But unfortunately being minor their ideas usually turn out bad and they don't last long.

But the parties rarely agree on whats best and even if a party had a good idea its criticised for the sake of opposition as I guess thats what the opposition in government is meant to do. I always say its a matter of choosing the best of a worst bunch as they are as bad as each other in mismangering things.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Here in Australia we sort of have a similar system though not a true republic. But local government and State governments have seperate elections and can vote in different parties to the Federal government. So we may have Labor in power Federally but Conservatives in State or local.

Federal is more to do with issues relating to the nation like defence, Medicare, Tax ect. Local government may be issues relating to local issues like bylaws, townplanning, upkeep of facilities and streets. State operates its own education, health and law application though the Federal government may allocate some funding and deal with laws and policy that affects national interests regarding education and health.

Its when one part gets in Federal and State that it seems to be most polarizing or how the major parties get in power with the help of minor parties and independents who have vested interests such as when the balance of power requires their votes. This allows minor parties like the Greens or Nationalist parties to force their ideas on the majority.

But I find that if one party gets in it only takes one maybe two terms before people begin to get sick of them and look for change. This seems to go back and forth and has done for years. Though in recent times people have become sick of the major parties and are looking for something different. Thats usually when the minor parties do well. But unfortunately being minor their ideas usually turn out bad and they don't last long.

But the parties rarely agree on whats best and even if a party had a good idea its criticised for the sake of opposition as I guess thats what the opposition in government is meant to do. I always say its a matter of choosing the best of a worst bunch as they are as bad as each other in mismangering things.

I don't know about Australia, but a big problem in America's system is the numerous government agencies, commonly known as the "shadow government" or "deep state". Politicians come and go as the political pendulum sways and the political wind blows, but these people stay in Washington forever and become a permanent political class. In theory they are the hands and feet of the executive branch under the command of the president, they can be easily fired and replaced, but that's just wishful thinking. Since the Obama administration, many of these agencies are weaponized to persecute the conservatives, formal liberals and anybody with a dissenting voice, and the federal government has greatly expanded and overreached its authority, many local affairs are taken over by these federal agencies.

 

[o_mlly]

It seems to me that the criteria for judging the better and worse forms of governance are effectiveness and efficiency. Effectiveness is measured in attaining the goals of the community and efficiency is measured in optimizing the community's resources in doing so.

Dictatorial systems of governance (just a few call the shots) are extremely efficient. However, their effectiveness is entirely dependent on the level of omniscience possessed by those few who decide on how to deploy the community's scarce resources.

Democratic systems of governance (many decide) are extremely effective but less efficient. In a democratic free-enterprise system, the communities resources are widely deployed to pursue many different ends of which the majority are likley fruitless. However, those who pursue fruitless ends have the resources they garnered quickly removed from them and released to others who would pursue different ends.

This self-correcting mechanism of a democratic free-enterprise system mitigates its inherent inefficiencies without decreasing substantially its effectiveness and, imo, is the better form of governance (until a super-human intelligence can be found).

 

[Bradskii]

This self-correcting mechanism of a democratic free-enterprise system mitigates its inherent inefficiencies without decreasing substantially its effectiveness and, imo, is the better form of governance (until a super-human intelligence can be found).

We could call it...I dunno...Skynet? Just keep this guy up to speed with developments.

John Connor (Illinois politician) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Hans Blaster]

Yes, and that's what you get when a supposed democratic system goes wrong. If you have a power vacuum, fascists naturally fill in.

Which is why we need to keep an eye out for the authoritarians, monarchists, theocrats, and other twits. Fascists don't generally "just fill in", they deliberately attack democracy and its institutions. They attack voting rights, minority groups, and the bureaucracy. This is the problem we have in the US (if you are aware) right now.

If you don't believe in the bible, then why did you come to this forum?

Belief in the bible has nothing to do with this. The biblical examples you gave are not democracy. Frankly it's laughable to think that the story of the tower of babel is about democracy. Your arguments must be getting weak if you are questioning my presence here. (I came to talk about pseudoscience and then later branched into politics, especially fact-free arguments and claims.)

Or perhaps you should stop flexing your ignorance as strength.

I'm not the one who thinks democracy and republic are exclusive concepts.

 

[zippy2006]

I got most of the way through it. Simply a polemic about modern morals, a diatribe against secularism (the US being one of the largest secular states on the planet) and a cri de coeur about the failure of religion. Well, his religion is what Barr means.

I said that I don't think we should bring politics per se into this discussion. Religion has nothing to do with it at all.

Well, there goes that concept as a reasonable suggestion for how to get a better political system. We don't need one because governments get in the way of personal freedom. Leave it to the people. Except that society degenerates to barbarism without the rule of law. Self determination works in a small group, but once you reach the point where 'us' becomes 'us and them' all bets are off.

Thanks, but no thanks.

...You gotta love it when someone is so wrapped up in their anti-religious ideologies that their ears shrivel up whenever the subject of religion is even mentioned. And then they spend all of their time on a religious discussion forum.

And of course promoting the ability to act well without law does not imply that law ought to be abolished, but logic was never your strong suit.

 

[Bradskii]

...You gotta love it when someone is so wrapped up in their anti-religious ideologies that their ears shrivel up whenever the subject of religion is even mentioned. And then they spend all of their time on a religious discussion forum.

Talking about politics. Or at least trying to. Which is why it's frustrating that you link to a speech by Barr which is nothing more than a rant against the failings of his religion. And has nothing whatsoever to do with the op

And of course promoting the ability to act well without law does not imply that law ought to be abolished...

Then don't suggest we would be fine without being motivated by the law. I can only respond to what you write.

'a moral citizenry would abstain from stealing or killing even without the motivation of law.'

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Which is why we need to keep an eye out for the authoritarians, monarchists, theocrats, and other twits. Fascists don't generally "just fill in", they deliberately attack democracy and its institutions. They attack voting rights, minority groups, and the bureaucracy. This is the problem we have in the US (if you are aware) right now.

Yeah, 'cause the general public don't understand that with great power comes great responsibility. You've heard "freedom" and "democracy" being spammed everywhere, but freedom is not lawlessness, democracy is not mob rule.

Belief in the bible has nothing to do with this. The biblical examples you gave are not democracy. Frankly it's laughable to think that the story of the tower of babel is about democracy. Your arguments must be getting weak if you are questioning my presence here. (I came to talk about pseudoscience and then later branched into politics, especially fact-free arguments and claims.)

While I came here to talk about God and his holy word, in which ample instructions on the nature and form of government are given. If you dismiss it as "Jewish folklore", then just forget about it and go your way, friend. I ain't gonna cast more pearls before the swine.

I'm not the one who thinks democracy and republic are exclusive concepts.

I don't think they are exclusive concepts, but I don't like mixing up things either. I don't know about other countries, but America is neither a democracy nor a republic. According to Benjamin Franklin, it's a republic IF YOU CAN KEEP IT. And judging by your own words, it seems we can't.

 

[Hans Blaster]

While I came here to talk about God and his holy word, in which ample instructions on the nature and form of government are given.

There is no democracies described in your bible. Nor instructions on how to form a representative government.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

There is no democracies described in your bible. Nor instructions on how to form a representative government.

Again, ignorance is not strength as you think it is. Just because you don't know doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And there's no such thing as "my bible", I don't own it, only God's bible for all mankind.