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Democracy is the worst form of government...

BPPLEE

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Sheriff Taylor didn't carry a gun either, he left the shooting iron to Deputy Fife.
Who had one bullet he had to keep in his pocket. It wouldn’t work well.today. BTW my grandmother was the stunt woman for Aunt B. When you see Aunt B jumping over a fence that’s my grandmother
 
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BPPLEE

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I want EVERYONE to vote, (okay some are going to be morally suspect, or worse, I’ll grant you, but being astute politically has nothing to do with being a sociopathic criminal).
Does everyone include non citizens?
 
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stevevw

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Was it no evidence or little evidence? You seem to have changed your argument. You need to pick one. Let me know which.

And while you're deciding that, just be aware that not all evidence is valid. Not all facts are correct. We're able to make a decision on this because the evidence and the facts are presented. That is the critical point you seem not to understand. Rather than say 'it is written' we are given the reasons for a decision so we can decide if it's the correct one.

I thought it best to explain that because I have a feeling you're thinking about using examples where evidence is given with which you disagree. Please don't waste our time doing that.
Theres plenty apart from the ones that Ana and I listed which are the obvious ones. The evdience shows that having a mother and father is better for kids. Especially having a father in light of the problems facing young males. Secular ideology claims it doesn't matter if kids don't have both parents or a father because theres no difference between male and female. A female can be the father aned a male can be the mother.

Secular ideology claims that there are no natural differences between males and females and therefore no natural reasons why males and females choose careers. The logic goes that because males dominate certain industries that this is because of a male patriarchy. Yet the science shows there are differences which influence career choices where males choose jobs relating to working with things and femalews choose careers working with people.

Secular ideology claims that religious belief is unreal and makes no difference to a persons wellbeing. Yet the evidence shows having a religious belief contributes to better physical and mental health and child rearing.

Thats just 3 issues and there are more. By the way in case you think these ideas are irrelevant to democracy the State and organisations base their policies on this ideological thinking does permeate society, influence peoples lives, their views and how they will vote.

The point being if we really want to allow all views based on the evdience and not ideological beliefs then a case can be made to promote these ideas or at the very least have them considered and argued for. But what we find instead is an antagonism towards anything that contradicts the current leftist dogma on these issues. The State doesn't even allow them fair hearing and therefore are controlling the narrative as to what is permissible or not.

Thats more or less the same as what people claim religion does and is not democractic because to have democracy we need to allow all voices even if they are opposing ones.
 
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Bradskii

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Its the same for some of the ideological beliefs taught in State schools and Universities regarding sex, gender and race. There is no evdience for them and yet they underpin the curriculum. Belief doesn't have to be limited to traditional religion to be taught as fact in education.
You keep saying 'no evidence' despite the evidence. As I said, just because you you don't agree with something doesn't mean it magically doesn't exist.

Again, as I said, ID has realised it needed evidence and so presented it. It exists. They have just interpreted it incorrectly. Sex, gender and race have a galactic amount of evidence coming to all sorts of conclusions. Tough luck if you don't agree with some of It. But you can't say it's not there.
 
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o_mlly

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For disenfranchising sections of the electorate? No, I don't.
You must have excelled at dodgeball.

Unwilling to recognize the real problem, in a convoluted way, you (and Hans) wish to characterize the solution as the problem. But neither have an alternate solution to offer for the real problem.
 
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Bradskii

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Theres plenty apart from the ones that Ana and I listed which are the obvious ones. The evdience shows that having a mother and father is better for kids.
And evidence that says that children with same sex parents do just fine if not better than the average. Evidence is what is required. Not simply 'it is written.' You can't say 'evidence shows X' if you're trying to say that evidence doesn't matter.

Please try harder to stay on topic.
 
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stevevw

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Sigh... How many times do we have to go over this.

This is just wrong. Secular is the alternative to religious in institutions, etc.
If secularism is an alternative to religion then its a religion itself. It cannot be an alternative unless it offers an alternative to religious belief. Secularism cannot remain neutral when it comes to belief because its by nature that we attach beliefs to how we govern be it via communism (denying freedoms) which is about morality or by capitalism (value through private ownership) or even democracy (upholding freedoms).
It is not about "rejecting God" or any such things.
Yes it is. If the State rejects Christianity or any belief for that matter from the public square then that is undemocractic. If it then acts antangonistically towards a certain belief then its actively denying it.
Some things are inherently secular. Take for example plumbing. Is plumbing based on religion? No. Therefore it is a secular profession and economic activity. Plumbing businesses are inherently secular. It's not about whether a specific plumber is religious or not, it is still secular.
Thats an unreal view of things. You cannot seperate the job description from the ethical codes of conduct. In fact I would say that just as much importance goes into the ethical aspect such as DEI in all professions than the actual practical knowledge of doing the job. You cannot seperate the two just like you cannot seperate the States beliefs and ideology from governance.

Plus it didn't address the point I made which was that Christianity was being actively denied in secular society and by the State which is anti-democractic. Giving an example of a plumber hardly addresses this point. But if say a cake decorator is denied their belief by being forced to celebrate something his conscious doesn't agree with then that is more relevant.

If a plumber were to try and make out with a client then thats relevant. If a plumber is sacked because they wrote on twitter that they supported traditional marriage then thats relevant.
Most economic activities are inherently secular, with the exceptions being the businesses that [specifically cater to religious views like Christian book stores. (Edited to finish sentence. Ooops.)]
That seems unreal. In some ways entire economic ideas are protested as immoral. capitalism is protested against by most Leftis and Marxist like its the root of all evils. Realistically I don't think we can seperate these things ethically. Even the Welfare State a bastian of Democrates, Labor aned socialists is steeped in morals. Any government that tries to govern by the cold facts of economics will be condemned by all sides.
No it doesn't. See above.
It does in the sense that secular means the public square should not promote one belief over another but rather be free of belief and religion. A secular government is religious and belief free. But if they promote a particular belief or deny a religion then they are no longer secular but aligning with a belief.
What is it you fear about being in the minority? Does the society that was built when your religion was in the majority not protect religious minorities adequately.
You have completely missed the point. Its not fearing being a minority, it is fearing that our long held principles such as free speech, freedom of religion and conscience are being denied. Thats not just a fear Christians should worry about but something we all should be concerned about. It seems that what is happening now is undoing these long help truth principles rather than creating some better society.
 
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o_mlly

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I don't want my grandkids voting. So they're included in the exceptions with which nobody disagrees. Including you.
Not so. I want all my grandkids to vote.

You'd do better if you spend less time telling me what I think and more time on how to stop incentivizing US politicians to financially bankrupt the nation.
 
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stevevw

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And evidence that says that children with same sex parents do just fine if not better than the average. Evidence is what is required. Not simply 'it is written.' You can't say 'evidence shows X' if you're trying to say that evidence doesn't matter.

Please try harder to stay on topic.
So lets consider the logic. Are you saying that a child doesn't need a mother or father. That the evdience doesn't show their importance for development. Even logic shows that any idea that SS parenting is better is unreal. Otherwise why on earth is there such a thing as a mother and father when they can easily be replaced by the same sex. It means there is nothing about the unique role of a mother and father than makes a difference to a child.

But of course thats the ideological belief of todays postmodernist thinking. And they say secular society is neutral on beliefs. Come on. If the belief is that SS parents are just as good then the belief is that there are no real differences between mothers and fathers, male and female. Its no conincident that this theme runs through most of the ideas that are being pushed by the State and its agents when it comes to family, parenting, abortion, sex, gender and race.
 
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Bradskii

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You must have excelled at dodgeball.

Unwilling to recognize the real problem, in a convoluted way, you (and Hans) wish to characterize the solution as the problem. But neither have an alternate solution to offer for the real problem.
If you want to discuss the problem, start a thread about it. Your solution to it means disenfranchising voters, which is somewhat relevant to this thread. But there is no support for doing that.
 
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Bradskii

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So lets consider the logic. Are you saying that a child doesn't need a mother or father.
Completely, totally and utterley irrelevant to the question posed in the op. Again, please try to stay on topic.
 
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o_mlly

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But none of those things are relevant to only those that you term unequal. Which is the point we are discussing. They apply to everyone. Your specific definition of unequal doesn't allow us to take away any of those rights. Including the right to vote.
Of course they are all relevant examples, contrary to your claim., The rights of citizens are not absolute and the government can and does restrict them. Likewise, voting is not a universal right but a legal privilege. And that privilege is amendable.

Do you have an argument that falsifies the premises? Let's see it.
 
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o_mlly

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If you want to discuss the problem, start a thread about it. Your solution to it means disenfranchising voters, which is somewhat relevant to this thread. But there is no support for doing that.
So, lacking any serious input as to altering the dynamics of electing our politicians, you now want to pickup your dodgeball and go home. Because, if you don't support it then there can be no support for it. Sorry, but that's not how the game is played.
 
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Bradskii

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You want my grandkids to vote? No you don't. They're under 10. If yours are voting age then I'd want them to vote. Whether they are on social security or are in some other way a negative burden on the the state.
 
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stevevw

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One can have a law against murder. That’s fine.
One cannot have a law that states “murder is hereby made illegal” because of Exodus 20:13 says it’s verboten.
Ok but then what does "One can have a law against murder. That’s fine" even mean. All that says is there is a written law in contempary society that says Murder is illegal. Whats the difference, they are both written laws.

The Laws in Exodus were not just plucked out of thin air not purely relate to the idea that 'God says its law'. They also relate to what laws are best for a society to live together. Remembering that Moses was the leader and witnessed the chaos of having no laws to help order that society of a large number of people living together.

In otherwords Moses also seen the logic of the law and therefore derived these laws out of the bad behaviour of the Isrealites. he seen enough of the murdering and stealing to know that there needed to be laws against this behaviour just like we do today. So these laws are based on the same logic as society has today. It seems more than a coincident that these laws are not just any laws but specific to societies living together.

More importantly they are written laws in the sense that they hold a status beyond any individual or even society that writes them. If the majority wanted to deny the written law that murder is wrong and went around murdering everyone we can still say the majority is wrong because the law is more than ink and paper but a truth we have come to know that helps society live together in relative peace and order.
 
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o_mlly

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So we don't end up in a situation where prisoners are voting themselves out of prison.
Yes. Likewise, we end up with a situation where those perpetually and unjustly on the dole vote themselves to remain on the dole.
 
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Bradskii

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The rights of citizens are not absolute and the government can and does restrict them. Likewise, voting is not a universal right but a legal privilege. And that privilege is amendable.

Do you have an argument that falsifies the premises? Let's see it.
Your premises are undeniable. I haven't argued against them because they are undeniable. What you need to do is give an example of when that right can be removed. You've done that. I don't agree with it. For the reasons I gave when you first suggested it.
 
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Bradskii

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The Laws in Exodus were not just plucked out of thin air not purely relate to the idea that 'God says its law'. They also relate to what laws are best for a society to live together.
Then if there is a reason for the law - if it is as you say what is 'best for a society to live together' then we can examine the evidence and consider it. But again, this is completely off topic.
 
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