delivered from the law?

[Clare73]

abraham loved, pre law, and the law works wrath, rom 4:15, not love.

Agreed.

But love works the law (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10) written on the heart by the Holy Spirit (Heb 8:10).

In the faith,
Clare

 

[bugkiller]

Hey, ribbit!
How goes it?

Paul's issue with the law was justification and sanctification by works of law-keeping.

In the new covenant, the law is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Heb 8:10)

No it is not the law writtin in/on our heart. It is My (God's) law written in/on our hearts. Yes there is a difference. Consider the full quote from Jer 31 in Heb 8 -
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

It is impossible that the law is the New covenant. according to Hebrews and Jeremiah.

and is the rule of love (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10), through which faith expresses itself (Gal 5:6, 14).

It is not justification or sanctification by works.
It is the power of the Holy Spirit operating within one's heart expressing faith through love in obedience to Christ's command to love one another as I have loved you (Jn 15:12), which can be done only in the power of the Holy Spirit.

The law says, "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Lev 19:18)
The gospel of Jesus says, "Love one another as I have loved you." (Jn 15:12)

The power of the Holy Spirit has to write that on our hearts if it is going to happen.
It's not about law-keeping, it's about loving God and the brethren through the power of the Holy Spirit.
It's not about fulfilling the law through love as the cause of God's favor, but as the result of God's favor.

The law crowd is under a challenge for quite some time to name anyone who has kept the law with the power of the Holy Spirit and still can not or will not provide that name.

bugkiller

 

[Clare73]

all is well, u?

but really, it was Paul fighting off law sanctification in galatia, though the justifed word is used, he was fighting off not adding law, to the already saved churches, same as Col 2.

and we can't forget about the sin law dynamic, said the the already justified romans in 5-7.

Agreed.

And that dynamic is activated in sanctification by law-keeping, rather than sanctification by the Holy Spirit producing love, which fulfills the law (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10), as distinct from following the law.

In the former, love by the power of the Holy Spirit is the cause of action;
in the latter, law-keeping by self-effort is the goal of action.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[bugkiller]

Correct, it's not about following them, it's about fulfilling them (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10), because they are what flow from the heart (Heb 8:10).

In the faith,
Clare

Please explain the difference. The Christian is not obligated to the law in any form.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Agreed.

But love works the law (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10) written on the heart by the Holy Spirit (Heb 8:10).

In the faith,
Clare

Nope!!!

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Agreed.

And that dynamic is activated in sanctification by law-keeping, rather than sanctification by the Holy Spirit producing love, which fulfills the law (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10.

In the faith,
Clare

Nope! If it were there is no need of a Saviour because one could be saved through keeping of the law.

bugkiller

 

[Clare73]

No it is not the law writtin in/on our heart. It is My (God's) law written in/on our hearts. Yes there is a difference. Consider the full quote from Jer 31 in Heb 8 -
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;
I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:

And whose laws are the Ten Commandments, if not God's?

and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

It is impossible that the law is the New covenant. according to Hebrews and Jeremiah.The law crowd is under a challenge for quite some time to name anyone who has kept the law with the power of the Holy Spirit and still can not or will not provide that name.

Whatever are you talking about?

In the new covenant, we don't "keep" the law; i.e., the Ten Commandments, any more than we "keep" love.

Both are in our hearts (Heb 8:10), out from which flow our actions (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10), explained [post=61892627]here[/post], in the red print.

Are you proposing the antinomian?

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

Please explain the difference. The Christian is not obligated to the law in any form.

It is explained [post=61892627]here[/post], in the red print.

It is not an "obligation" to perform, it is the result which flows out from us in love, because it is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

Nope!!!

Very informed refutation of Ro 13: 8, 9, 10; 1Co 9:21. . .

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Johnnz]

And whose laws are the Ten Commandments, if not God's?


Whatever are you talking about?

In the new covenant, we don't "keep" the law; i.e., the Ten Commandments, any more than we "keep" love.

Both are in our hearts (Heb 8:10), out from which flow our actions (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10), explained [post=61892627]here[/post], in the red print.

Are you proposing the antinomian?

In the faith,
Clare

I don't see he is.

The Old Covenant is abolished by the New through Jesus. That is clear from the NT writings. We are no longer under Torah. It was never successful in
a) giving power over sin and
b) Overcoming death.

Jesus alone did that and that's why he is the author of a new covenant.

But what the law stated as moral standards is now at a greater level because we have the presence of Jesus within, and His life resonates to us with His reality, making it ours too as we allow Him to transform us. Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount pushed well beyond mere law. The fruit of the Spirit is not law keeping but expressions of the life and character of Jesus. And it is only by the reality of the power of the Holy Spirit that we can exhibit such Life. Torah cannot touch this.

John
NZ

 

[Clare73]

but really, it was Paul fighting off law sanctification in galatia,though the justified word is used, he was fighting off not adding law, to the already saved churches, same as Col 2.

and we can't forget about the sin law dynamic, said the the already justified romans in 5-7.

Agreed.

And that dynamic is activated in sanctification by law-keeping, rather than sanctification by the Holy Spirit producing love, which fulfills the law (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10), as distinct from following the law.

In the former, love by the power of the Holy Spirit is the cause of action;
in the latter, law-keeping by self-effort is the goal of action.

Nope! If it were there is no need of a Saviour because one could be saved through keeping of the law.

Thanks, bugkiller, but it might be better to let Frogster respond to his posts, because I don't think you understand what we are saying to one another.

Frogster knows I am talking about attempted sanctification by law-keeping, which is not possible,
and that I am not talking about actual sancitification by law-keeping, which does not exist.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[KimberlyAA]

Romans 7:6 - But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.

I believe Paul means we are no longer captive to the Mosaic laws and strict regulations. By living in the Spirit we do not require the law as we will already be striving for righteousness.

Romans 7:12 - But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.

The law itself is pure and holy and following it is still ok. It doesn't decide whether or not we are saved however.

Romans 7:25 - Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

I don't think this verse is referring to the Mosaic law but may be a general law of righteous living. However, Paul here is happy that his salvation is found in Christ & not in the previous laws. You see, Paul grew up in the Pharisee lifestyle under Orthodox Jewish rabbis who upheld these laws & taught him to do the same. This is why he was 1st a persecutor of Christians who he thought were doing away with God's laws. Now, the answer is found in Christ solely. In this way, Gentiles unaccustomed to the Mosaic laws have Christ as their "light" as well.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by bugkiller

Nope!!!​

​

Very informed refutation of Ro 13: 8, 9, 10; 1Co 9:21. . .

In the faith,
Clare

He is just pausing to catch his breath for now

.

 

[Clare73]

I don't see he is.

The Old Covenant is abolished by the New through Jesus. That is clear from the NT writings. We are no longer under Torah. It was never successful in
a) giving power over sin and
b) Overcoming death.

Jesus alone did that and that's why he is the author of a new covenant.

Agreed.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

Romans 7:6 - But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.

I believe Paul means we are no longer captive to the Mosaic laws and strict regulations. By living in the Spirit we do not require the law as we will already be striving for righteousness.

Romans 7:12 - But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.

The law itself is pure and holy and following it is still ok. It doesn't decide whether or not we are saved however.

Romans 7:25 - Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

I don't think this verse is referring to the Mosaic law but may be a general law of righteous living. However, Paul here is happy that his salvation is found in Christ & not in the previous laws. You see, Paul grew up in the Pharisee lifestyle under Orthodox Jewish rabbis who upheld these laws & taught him to do the same. This is why he was 1st a persecutor of Christians who he thought were doing away with God's laws. Now, the answer is found in Christ solely. In this way, Gentiles unaccustomed to the Mosaic laws have Christ as their "light" as well.

Agreed.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

He is just pausing to catch his breath for now.

Oh, drat!

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Frogster]

Thanks, bugkiller, but it might be better to let Frogster respond to his posts, because I don't think you understand what we are saying to one another.

Frogster knows I am talking about attempted sanctification by law-keeping, which is not possible,
and that I am not talking about actual sancitification by law-keeping, which does not exist.

In the faith,
Clare

in other words Clare, where the rubber hits the road

Will one walking under the principle of law, have sin arousal with it's ensuing guilt, and separation from grace gal 5:4?

 

[Frogster]

Romans 7:6 - But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.

I believe Paul means we are no longer captive to the Mosaic laws and strict regulations. By living in the Spirit we do not require the law as we will already be striving for righteousness.

Romans 7:12 - But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.

The law itself is pure and holy and following it is still ok. It doesn't decide whether or not we are saved however.

Romans 7:25 - Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

I don't think this verse is referring to the Mosaic law but may be a general law of righteous living. However, Paul here is happy that his salvation is found in Christ & not in the previous laws. You see, Paul grew up in the Pharisee lifestyle under Orthodox Jewish rabbis who upheld these laws & taught him to do the same. This is why he was 1st a persecutor of Christians who he thought were doing away with God's laws. Now, the answer is found in Christ solely. In this way, Gentiles unaccustomed to the Mosaic laws have Christ as their "light" as well.

it was mosaic, paul went into the 'thou shall not" words in 7:7.

 

[Clare73]

in other words Clare, where the rubber hits the road

Will one walking under the principle of law, have sin arousal with it's ensuing guilt, and separation from grace gal 5:4?

The law of Christ does not walk under the prinicple of the law, but the prinicple of love, where the law is written on the heart by the Holy Spirit.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Frogster]

The law of Christ does not walk under the prinicple of the law, but the prinicple of love, where the law is written on the heart by the Holy Spirit.

In the faith,
Clare

do you think law and grace, are a principle?