delivered from the law?

JohnRabbit

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what does paul mean when he says "we have been delivered from the law"?

Romans 7:6(NKJV)
6But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

but he also says:

Romans 7:12(NKJV)
12Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.


we are to be delivered from something that's holy, just, and good?


and paul also said that he served the law of God - rom 7:25!
 

OrthodoxyUSA

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St. Paul is explaining that the old testement law made sin more visable to him... and that was a good thing because it led him further down the road to find grace.

As he said... the law killed him. (Romans 7:9)

Forgive me...
 
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bugkiller

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How are Christians obligated to keep the law when we have not under the law in several verses and one of my all time favorites Rom 7:6 - But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Delivered in the Greek here is katargeō and means -

1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
c) to terminate all intercourse with one

This is backed up with from (apo) which means to seperate.

Jesus very clearly said - 10 If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15 How can that be read as Jesus saying to keep the law? What commandments did you say Jesus kept? Why the 10 Cs, correct? Jesus here says they are His Father's commandments.

What exactly does Rom 7:6 say about the law? Nothing except we are delivered (free of obligation) from the law. It does not conflict with Rom 7:12 in any way.

bugkiller
 
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Frogster

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what does paul mean when he says "we have been delivered from the law"?

Romans 7:6(NKJV)
6But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

but he also says:

Romans 7:12(NKJV)
12Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.


we are to be delivered from something that's holy, just, and good?


and paul also said that he served the law of God - rom 7:25!

no big deal, 7:25, all that means is he knew it was right, if you read it all, but you omit that sinful passions were aroused by the law, while under it, rom 7:5, and it was said in 6:14, sin has DOMINION UNDER THAT VERY LAW..DOMINION...


the law was added to increrase sin...ROM 5:20...ROM 5:20...ROM 5:20...:thumbsup:
 
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Frogster

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How are Christians obligated to keep the law when we have not under the law in several verses and one of my all time favorites Rom 7:6 - But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Delivered in the Greek here is katargeō and means -

1) to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative
a) to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency
b) to deprive of force, influence, power
2) to cause to cease, put an end to, do away with, annul, abolish
a) to cease, to pass away, be done away
b) to be severed from, separated from, discharged from, loosed from any one
c) to terminate all intercourse with one

This is backed up with from (apo) which means to seperate.

Jesus very clearly said - 10 If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in his love. John 15 How can that be read as Jesus saying to keep the law? What commandments did you say Jesus kept? Why the 10 Cs, correct? Jesus here says they are His Father's commandments.

What exactly does Rom 7:6 say about the law? Nothing except we are delivered (free of obligation) from the law. It does not conflict with Rom 7:12 in any way.

bugkiller

:amen::thumbsup:
 
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Look Up

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Paul draws an analogy in the opening verses of Romans 7 between the cessation of a marriage contract or covenant at the death of one spouse on the one hand, freeing the live spouse to remarry, and on the other hand, the cessation of the covenant relationship between the believer and God, freeing the believer to, in effect, enter a new covenant relationship ... with the same God who wrote the first "marriage contract," the law of Moses. That contract/covenant, coming as it does from God, is holy, righteous, and good (v. 12). The problem was never with the contract, but with the sin of the "I" character spouse.

At some point, the analogy also breaks down. The "I" character dies in identification with Jesus' death, breaking the marriage of the believer to the law of Moses. And in identification with the life of Jesus at the end of the day, the "resurrected-with-Jesus" believer lives "the new life of the Spirit" (7:6 & 8:4), bearing fruit for God (7:4), enabled to present bodily members in slavery (another analogy) to righteousness (6:19).

There is, in other words, continuity (possibly agreeing with bugkiller, above) between covenants old and new at least in that the ethical similarity between the "good" demands of the law of Moses and the righteous deeds Jesus enables the new covenant believer to perform come from the same God (the "I" formerly agreed that the law was "good" 7:16ff, cf. also 12:1-2). But discontinuity also seems evident between covenants at least in that the believer under the new covenant is enabled in a new way to avoid lawless deeds (6:19) and practice righteous ones in identification with Jesus' death and resurrection, being "not under law but under grace" (6:14).
 
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bugkiller

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Paul draws an analogy in the opening verses of Romans 7 between the cessation of a marriage contract or covenant at the death of one spouse on the one hand, freeing the live spouse to remarry, and on the other hand, the cessation of the covenant relationship between the believer and God, freeing the believer to, in effect, enter a new covenant relationship ... with the same God who wrote the first "marriage contract," the law of Moses. That contract/covenant, coming as it does from God, is holy, righteous, and good (v. 12). The problem was never with the contract, but with the sin of the "I" character spouse.

At some point, the analogy also breaks down. The "I" character dies in identification with Jesus' death, breaking the marriage of the believer to the law of Moses. And in identification with the life of Jesus at the end of the day, the "resurrected-with-Jesus" believer lives "the new life of the Spirit" (7:6 & 8:4), bearing fruit for God (7:4), enabled to present bodily members in slavery (another analogy) to righteousness (6:19).

There is, in other words, continuity (possibly agreeing with bugkiller, above) between covenants old and new at least in that the ethical similarity between the "good" demands of the law of Moses and the righteous deeds Jesus enables the new covenant believer to perform come from the same God (the "I" formerly agreed that the law was "good" 7:16ff, cf. also 12:1-2). But discontinuity also seems evident between covenants at least in that the believer under the new covenant is enabled in a new way to avoid lawless deeds (6:19) and practice righteous ones in identification with Jesus' death and resurrection, being "not under law but under grace" (6:14).
:thumbsup:

bugkiller
 
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Clare73

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How are Christians obligated to keep the law when we have not under the law in several verses and one of my all time favorites Rom 7:6 - But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Well, let's look at all that Paul says.

He is no longer under the law of Moses (1Co 9:20), but under the law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2).
The royal law of Christ is love (Gal 5:6; Jas 2:8).
The entire law is summed up in love (Gal 5:14), which is the fulfillment (performance) of the law (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10).

For if I love God, I will not take his name in vain, nor worship idols.
If I love my parents, I will honor them.
If I love my neighbors, I will not steal from them, nor murder them, nor commit adultery with their spouses,
nor lust after their possessions.
So love performs the law.

And now we're back to the law. . .but. . .the law of Christ carries no curse (death sentence) for imperfect performance of it.
So we are delivered from the curse of the law, which is death (Gal 3:10), but not from its writing on our hearts by the Spirit (Heb 10:16),
who gives us the power to keep it in love.

In the faith,
Clare
 
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Johnnz

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We need to read Romans as a book, not isolated texts. Paul develops his argument very carefully throughout the book. Previously Paul had argued that the law failed in two counts - death still reigned, and humanity, including Israel as God's people had found it impossible to keep. Sin still held sway in peoples' lives. But Jesus brought about a massive change. His resurrection was evidence that death had been conquered and that one day we too would experience that new realm, and that the new life of God's indwelling Spirit was now the the source of how we can live. Th old order 'flesh' had given way to 'life in the Spirit'.

John
NZ
 
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Harry3142

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John Rabbit-

'Going through the motions' through the superficial observance of various and sundry laws simply will not suffice for a Christian wanting to live a life that is in accordance with God's will. In order to live a Christlike life following our acceptance of his salvation, we need to possess the same motivations which Christ himself had as the impetus for his actions. And those motivations cannot be obtained through the legalistic following of laws and commandments. Instead, they must be implanted within us in the spiritual equivalent of a heart transplant:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

"He did all the right things, but for all the wrong reasons." We need to take this saying to heart. The obeying by rote of laws and commandments may bring about a cohesive society, but it falls woefully short of what our actions as Christians are to reflect. In order for our actions to give credit to God for what he has already done on our behalf, the impetus for those actions must be the motivations which are God's own impetus, given to us through his Spirit. If we try to perform the actions without having these motivations, those actions can only be seen as a caricature of what they should have been, as well as a mutilation of the message they should have conveyed.
 
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bugkiller

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Well, let's look at all that Paul says.

He is no longer under the law of Moses (1Co 9:20), but under the law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2).
The royal law of Christ is love (Gal 5:6; Jas 2:8).
The entire law is summed up in love (Gal 5:14), which is the fulfillment (performance) of the law (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10).

For if I love God, I will not take his name in vain, nor worship idols.
If I love my parents, I will honor them.
If I love my neighbors, I will not steal from them, nor murder them, nor commit adultery with their spouses,
nor lust after their possessions.
So love perfroms the law.

And now we're back to the law. . .but. . .the law of Christ carries no curse for imperfect performance of it.
So we are delivered from the curse of the law (Gal 3:10), but not from its writing on our hearts by the Spirit (Heb 10:16),
who gives us the power to keep it in love.

In the faith,
Clare
If we are only delivered for the curse of the law is that not toothless meaningless law? If so why bother with the law at all?

bugkiller
 
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Frogster

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Well, let's look at all that Paul says.

He is no longer under the law of Moses (1Co 9:20), but under the law of Christ (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2).
The royal law of Christ is love (Gal 5:6; Jas 2:8).
The entire law is summed up in love (Gal 5:14), which is the fulfillment (performance) of the law (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10).

For if I love God, I will not take his name in vain, nor worship idols.
If I love my parents, I will honor them.
If I love my neighbors, I will not steal from them, nor murder them, nor commit adultery with their spouses,
nor lust after their possessions.
So love perfroms the law.

And now we're back to the law. . .but. . .the law of Christ carries no curse for imperfect performance of it.
So we are delivered from the curse of the law (Gal 3:10), but not from its writing on our hearts by the Spirit (Heb 10:16),
who gives us the power to keep it in love.

In the faith,
Clare

there are texts that show that paul knew all to well, that the POWER of sin is law, 1 cor 15:56, and he was very careful of that poweful law dynamic indeed, he told tim, keep those law boys out in 1 tim 1, he knew the power of law.

law sanctification is a no no.:)

sin can still have dominion if one walks under law rom 6:14, or has law bind the conscience.
 
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Clare73

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If we are only delivered for the curse of the law is that not toothless meaningless law? If so
why bother with the law at all?
We are commanded to do so.

Why bother with love at all? . . .We are commanded to do so.

If you love, you will automatically keep the law (explained [post=61892627]here[/post], in the red print).

"To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law,
but am under Christ's law)," (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2)

The royal law of Christ is love (Jas 2:8; Gal 5:6, 14).

Love fulfilles (performs) the law (Ro 13:8, 9, 10).

It is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Heb 8:10), it is "faith expressing itself through love." (Gal 5:6, 14)

In the faith,
Clare
 
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Clare73

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there are texts that show that paul knew all to well, that the POWER of sin is law, 1 cor 15:56, and he was very careful of that poweful law dynamic indeed, he told tim, keep those law boys out in 1 tim 1, he knew the power of law.

law sanctification is a no no.:)

sin can still have dominion if one walks under law rom 6:14, or has law bind the conscience.
Hey, ribbit!
How goes it?

Paul's issue with the law was justification and sanctification by works of law-keeping.

In the new covenant, the law is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Heb 8:10)
and is the rule of love (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10), through which faith expresses itself (Gal 5:6, 14).

It is not justification or sanctification by works.
It is the power of the Holy Spirit operating within one's heart expressing faith through love in obedience to Christ's command to love one another as I have loved you (Jn 15:12), which can be done only in the power of the Holy Spirit.

The law says, "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Lev 19:18)
The gospel of Jesus says, "Love one another as I have loved you." (Jn 15:12)
The gospel sets a whole lot higher standard.

The power of the Holy Spirit has to write that on our hearts if it is going to happen.
It's not about law-keeping, it's about loving God and the brethren through the power of the Holy Spirit.
It's not about fulfilling the law through love as the cause of God's favor, but as the result of God's favor.

Good to see ya'. . .

In the faith,
Clare
 
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Frogster

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Hey, ribbit!
How goes it?

Paul's issue with the law was justification by works.

In the new covenant, the law is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Heb 8:10)
and is the rule of love (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10), through which faith expresses itself (Gal 5:6, 14).

It is not justification or sanctification by works.
It is the power of the Holy Spirit operating within one's heart expressing faith through love in obedience to Christ's command to love one another as I have loved you (Jn 15:12), which can be done only in the power of the Holy Spirit.

The law says, "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Lev 19:18)
The gospel of Jesus says, "Love one another as I have loved you." (Jn 15:12)

The power of the Holy Spirit has to write that on our hearts if it is going to happen.
It's not about law-keeping, it's about loving God and the brethren through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Good to see ya'. . .

In the faith,
Clare

all is well, u?:wave:

but really, it was Paul fighting off law sanctification in galatia, though the justifed word is used, he was fighting off not adding law, to the already saved churches, same as Col 2.

and we can't forget about the sin law dynamic, said the the already justified romans in 5-7.:)
 
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Frogster

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We are commanded to do so.

Why bother with love at all? . . .We are commanded to do so.

If you love, you will automatically keep the law (explained [post=61892627]here[/post], in the red print).

"To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law,
but am under Christ's law)," (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2)

The royal law of Christ is love (Jas 2:8; Gal 5:6, 14).

Love fulfilles (performs) the law (Ro 13:8, 9, 10).

It is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Heb 8:10), it is "faith expressing itself through love." (Gal 5:6, 14)

In the faith,
Clare

abraham loved, pre law, and the law works wrath, rom 4:15, not love.:)
 
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bugkiller

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We are commanded to do so.

Why bother with love at all? . . .We are commanded to do so.

If you love, you will automatically keep the law (explained [post=61892627]here[/post], in the red print).

"To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law,
but am under Christ's law)," (1Co 9:21; Gal 6:2)

The royal law of Christ is love (Jas 2:8; Gal 5:6, 14).

Love fulfilles (performs) the law (Ro 13:8, 9, 10).

It is written on our hearts by the Holy Spirit (Heb 8:10), it is "faith expressing itself through love." (Gal 5:6, 14)

In the faith,
Clare
No, no following the law of Christ is not folowing the law of Moses or even the 10 Cs if one says those are not part of the law of Moses. But anyway Paul and James both say the 10 Cs are the law meaning the law of Moses recorded in the Book of the Law.

bugkiller
 
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Clare73

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No, no following the law of Christ is not folowingthe law of Moses or even the 10 Cs if one says those are not part of the law of Moses. But anyway Paul and James both say the 10 Cs are the law meaning the law of Moses recorded in the Book of the Law.

bugkiller
Correct, it's not about following them, it's about fulfilling them (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10), because they are what flow from the heart (Heb 8:10).

In the faith,
Clare
 
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