[deleted]

[Gracchus]

I appreciate your answer very much, consider that you are not trained in geology.

It is true that my formal education in geology is somewhat deficient, consisting of two semesters in high school and two in college, but I did take field courses, with associated laboratory and cartographic work, have read a number of books since, and I can generally differentiate between aeolian, lacustrian, riparian, and marine sediments.

But, exactly because the nature of pyroclastic flow as you described, we should not expect a fine laminated deposition like what we found on the ash/sand/pebble deposition.

The deposits are not "laminated" in the sense that they are cemented together. Because they are unweathered they do have a high angle of repose. Individual grains are angular and don't roll or even slide.

When later forceful flows ran over the earlier deposits, we should even expect frequent erosion and gouging of the loose sediments deposited slightly earlier.

And that is exactly what we observe. When wind (or water) flows over unsorted deposits, it carries away the finer sediment to be deposited down wind or down stream to present finer grained deposits over coarser grained ones that were left behind in the flow, producing ordered layering from unsorted sediments. Thus, the pyroclastic cloud deposits unsorted sediments vertically, with heavier grains falling out first, which are then further sorted by horizontal flow. This process can be observed and has been observed. And that is exactly what we see in the pyroclastic deposits around, for instance, Mt. St. Helens, but also in many other places.

 

[Gracchus]

You did not answer my question: "How could a volcanic eruption make such a detailed stratification?"

I, however, did answer your question. Do you require further clarification?

 

[joshua 1 9]

This is a Poe right? A joke? It looks like a Satire to me.

 

[crjmurray]

This is a Poe right? A joke? It looks like a Satire to me.

Looks like something you'd post.

 

[Gracchus]

This is a Poe right? A joke? It looks like a Satire to me.

Poe's law
Poe's law is an Internet adage which states that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, parodies of extreme views will be mistaken by some readers for sincere expressions of the parodied views.

History
"Poe's law" was originally written by Nathan Poe in 2005, in a post on christianforums.com, an Internet forum about Christianity. The post was written in the context of a debate about creationism, where a previous poster had remarked to another user "Good thing you included the winky. Otherwise people might think you are serious." Poe then replied, "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is uttrerly [sic] impossible to parody a Creationist in such a way that someone won't mistake for the genuine article." The original statement of Poe's law referred specifically to creationism, but it has since been generalized to apply to any kind of fundamentalism or extremism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

If you can't tell, Poe's Law applies.

 

[juvenissun]

It is true that my formal education in geology is somewhat deficient, consisting of two semesters in high school and two in college, but I did take field courses, with associated laboratory and cartographic work, have read a number of books since, and I can generally differentiate between aeolian, lacustrian, riparian, and marine sediments.
The deposits are not "laminated" in the sense that they are cemented together. Because they are unweathered they do have a high angle of repose. Individual grains are angular and don't roll or even slide.
And that is exactly what we observe. When wind (or water) flows over unsorted deposits, it carries away the finer sediment to be deposited down wind or down stream to present finer grained deposits over coarser grained ones that were left behind in the flow, producing ordered layering from unsorted sediments. Thus, the pyroclastic cloud deposits unsorted sediments vertically, with heavier grains falling out first, which are then further sorted by horizontal flow. This process can be observed and has been observed. And that is exactly what we see in the pyroclastic deposits around, for instance, Mt. St. Helens, but also in many other places.

Impressive argument considering that you had only two geology courses in college.

Take a look of this image of a pyroclastic deposit (Mt. St. Helens). The laminated exposure was cleaned up by a scraper. So the whole image area could show a similar delicate layering structure.

The argument is on the mechanism of deposition. A violent eruption/deposition is able to create fine layered sediments like this in an extremely short period of time (days). So why can't a very thick (>1000 ft) clastic sedimentary deposit be made by a very large flood in a short period of time?

[an off-the-point reply to your argument is that many layers in this image are not truly graded. They are only separated deposition of different size particles, like a layer of mud above a layer of silt. They are two layers, rather than one graded layer.]

 

[Gracchus]

Impressive argument considering that you had only two geology courses in college.

Geology is one of the simpler sciences to comprehend, if you let the stones themselves speak.

The argument is on the mechanism of deposition. A violent eruption/deposition is able to create fine layered sediments like this in an extremely short period of time (days). So why can't a very thick (>1000 ft) clastic sedimentary deposit be made by a very large flood in a short period of time?

Clastic deposits fall from the sky. Lahars and erosional deposits by water must flow from higher ground.

[an off-the-point reply to your argument is that many layers in this image are not truly graded. They are only separated deposition of different size particles, like a layer of mud above a layer of silt. They are two layers, rather than one graded layer.]

As I tried to explain, that is exactly what one would expect from clastic deposits sorted by wind. Water born sediments may also show layering if deposited by flows of varying speeds, as in the season varves deposited from glacial milling.

 

[juvenissun]

Geology is one of the simpler sciences to comprehend, if you let the stones themselves speak.

Clastic deposits fall from the sky. Lahars and erosional deposits by water must flow from higher ground.
As I tried to explain, that is exactly what one would expect from clastic deposits sorted by wind. Water born sediments may also show layering if deposited by flows of varying speeds, as in the season varves deposited from glacial milling.

Geology is one of the hardest science to master.

In this issue, I can see you hit a wall now on the details .
I am not good at this either. But I can see if further investigation is needed, then I have to flip some pages in a book of fluid dynamics. What is "clear" to you is sort of mystery to me. I don't really know how could a volcanic eruption produce this type of sedimentation. The sorting/deposition mechanism is very delicate. The eruption is not just one big boom. It might be composed of many many sequential, but much less violent outpouring. Each layer/laminae of sediment might be made by just one outpouring.

I never take a good look at the Mt. St. Helens deposit. But I am sure many other people must have done that.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Geology is one of the hardest science to master.

OEC or the Day Age Creationism is one of the most difficult because you are covering a huge amount of time. The days seem to be a different length. Schroeder's theory requires each day to be half the length of the day before it. But I do not see him try to come up with geological ages to match his progressively smaller creation days. Of course he is not obligated to I guess because he has a Cosmic Time theory of Creationism and that appears to be different then the day age theory.

 

[Frenzy]

The first question to ask is 'what is coal'? find the answer to that question and the rest will speak for itself.

A combustible black or dark brown rock consisting chiefly of carbonized plant matter, found mainly in underground seams and used as fuel.

I doubt very much if there are many [if any] creationist coal miners.

 

[Gracchus]

Geology is one of the hardest science to master.

I wouldn't know, never having mastered it. But compared to chemistry, physics, or even biology, I think geology is simple, because it is all "common sense", at least if you are cognizant of the basic principles of physics and chemistry.

In this issue, I can see you hit a wall now on the details .

Well, yes, because details may depend on localized phenomena, temperature of the ejecta, wind speed and direction, even humidity.

I am not good at this either. But I can see if further investigation is needed, then I have to flip some pages in a book of fluid dynamics.

You don't need much math if you understand the basic principles. Faster flows can carry larger particles. Gases flow from higher areas of concentration to areas of lower concentration and from higher temperatures (PV=nRT) to lower temperatures. With liquids it is a matter mostly of pressure or gravitational gradients although convection currents due to thermal gradients may still play a part.

What is "clear" to you is sort of mystery to me. I don't really know how could a volcanic eruption produce this type of sedimentation. The sorting/deposition mechanism is very delicate. The eruption is not just one big boom. It might be composed of many many sequential, but much less violent outpouring. Each layer/laminae of sediment might be made by just one outpouring.

Of course, but it can also form by secondary processes such, as I have mentioned, transport and size sorting by water or wind.

I never take a good look at the Mt. St. Helens deposit. But I am sure many other people must have done that.

Indeed! And if the processes involved are not clear to you investigating the sedimentation will help you to understand.

 

[juvenissun]

You don't need much math if you understand the basic principles. Faster flows can carry larger particles. Gases flow from higher areas of concentration to areas of lower concentration and from higher temperatures (PV=nRT) to lower temperatures. With liquids it is a matter mostly of pressure or gravitational gradients although convection currents due to thermal gradients may still play a part.

How does the sorting work under a high speed flow? May also plus a factor of temperature gradient?
A quick search found this idea. Not bad.

 

[juvenissun]

The first question to ask is 'what is coal'? find the answer to that question and the rest will speak for itself.

A combustible black or dark brown rock consisting chiefly of carbonized plant matter, found mainly in underground seams and used as fuel.

I doubt very much if there are many [if any] creationist coal miners.

So, what is the next question?
Can a 3-foot coal bed be made in a few years?

 

[Frenzy]

So, what is the next question?
Can a 3-foot coal bed be made in a few years?

No.

http://www.fe.doe.gov/education/energylessons/coal/gen_howformed.html

 

[Frenzy]

More creationist lies to keep the believers believing.

 

[: D]

The first question to ask is 'what is coal'? find the answer to that question and the rest will speak for itself.

A combustible black or dark brown rock consisting chiefly of carbonized plant matter, found mainly in underground seams and used as fuel.

I doubt very much if there are many [if any] creationist coal miners.

May of 1972, George R. Hill, Dean of the College of Mines and Mineral Industries wrote an article published in the Journal of Chemical Technology , now know as Chemtech. On p. 292, he commented:

“A rather startling and serendipitous discovery resulted. . . . These observations suggest that in their formation, high rank coals, . . . were probably subjected to high temperature at some stage in their history. A possible mechanism for formation of these high rank coals could have been a short time, rapid heating event.”

What happened was that Hill made coal (indistinguishable from natural coal); and, he did it in six hours.

or

Argonne National Laboratories has reported on research proving that under natural conditions coal may be formed in only 36 weeks.

In an article published in Organic Geochemistry, Vol. 6:463-471, 1984 (Oxidative Degradation Studies and Modern Concepts of the Formation and Transformation of Organic Constituents of Coals and Sedimentary Rocks, Ryoichi Hayatsu, Randall E. Winans, Robert L. McBeth, Robert G. Scott and Leon P. Moore, Chemistry Division Argonne National Laboratory, Argonne, IL 60439 USA.)
it was reported that all that was required for coal to form was that wood with kaolin clay as a catalyst must be buried deep enough that there is no oxygen, with a ground temperature of 150 degrees Celsius, and you will get coal in only 36 weeks. Further, it was noted that if the temperature were higher, the coal would form faster.

observable and repeatable experiments offering documented alternatives to the established echo chamber.

 

[RickG]

May of 1972, George R. Hill, Dean of the College of Mines and Mineral Industries wrote an article published in the Journal of Chemical Technology , now know as Chemtech. On p. 292, he commented:

“A rather startling and serendipitous discovery resulted. . . . These observations suggest that in their formation, high rank coals, . . . were probably subjected to high temperature at some stage in their history. A possible mechanism for formation of these high rank coals could have been a short time, rapid heating event.”

What happened was that Hill made coal (indistinguishable from natural coal); and, he did it in six hours.


or

Argonne National Laboratories has reported on research proving that under natural conditions coal may be formed in only 36 weeks.

A low form of lignite at best. Furthermore, simply comparing the ratios of 12C, 13C, and 14C would demonstrate laboratory conditions.

In an article published in Organic Geochemistry, Vol. 6:463-471, 1984 (Oxidative Degradation Studies and Modern Concepts of the Formation and Transformation of Organic Constituents of Coals and Sedimentary Rocks, Ryoichi Hayatsu, Randall E. Winans, Robert L. McBeth, Robert G. Scott and Leon P. Moore, Chemistry Division Argonne National Laboratory, Argonne, IL 60439 USA.)
it was reported that all that was required for coal to form was that wood with kaolin clay as a catalyst must be buried deep enough that there is no oxygen, with a ground temperature of 150 degrees Celsius, and you will get coal in only 36 weeks. Further, it was noted that if the temperature were higher, the coal would form faster.

observable and repeatable experiments offering documented alternatives to the established echo chamber.

Which does not occur under natural conditions.

 

[Dr GS Hurd]

I have written regarding the creationist's lies about Mt. St. Helens.

 

[RickG]

I have written regarding the creationist's lies about Mt. St. Helens.

Thanks for the link. Very well presented. To equate Mt. St. Helens with the Grand Canyon is beyond silly. I have to wonder how much money Austin has made off of those deliberate misrepresentations. There is no way a person who has spent the time and effort it takes to earn a PhD in Geology can seriously come with such outlandish conclusions. I seriously question his motives.

 

[Dr GS Hurd]

Another of Steve Austin and Andrew Snelling's lies is that there are Grand Canyon strata folds without stress fracturing.