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[sdowney717]

This text is often used to argue that "how we live" has no bearing on justification. But that is, I suggest, a misreading that can shown to so from context.

What is "the Law" here? It is not, as many believe, the general category of "principles of moral living"; it is instead the Law of Moses. How do we know this? It is clear from the inner logic of the passage, as presented above. The Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only. So if Paul wants to say that Gentiles, too, can be justified, one definitive way to do this is to say that people are not justified by "works of the Law".

Which, of course, is what he does.

Paul is not saying good deeds don't matter unto justification - heck, he has just told us in Romans 2 that they do matter.

What Paul is saying here is that justification is not limited to those who do the works of the Law of Moses. That is, to Jews.

This interpretation lends perfect inner coherence to the passage and its emphasis on the fact that Gentiles are part of the plan, too.

Of course good fruits matter and good works matter, if we dont bear good fruit we will be cast into the fire.
What happens with born again true believers, I mean truly the elect born again believers, not that some believers are not elect, as I can not judge them who ever they may be, is God is at work within them and they will bear good fruit and God's good works God has preordained them to perform. God does this for His own sake and glory. The ministry of condemnation, Paul tells us with Moses was glorious, even though fading away, then how much more glorious is the great salvation we have in Christ.
Please note v18
2 Corinthians 3
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

So God is at work within us to work and to do of His own good pleasure. The Spirit of the Lord is transforming us.

Again it says

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

And we also are included who believe in this same way. Paul here is teaching the church that he and they are one body and have the same inheritance and calling to the faith that he has.

2 Cor 3
The Spirit, Not the Letter
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Glory of the New Covenant
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away wasglorious, what remains is much more glorious.

12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[expos4ever]

He is talking about the differences between the Jews and gentiles.

How is this an answer to my question?

Here is the text again:

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

I agree that Paul is indeed treating the distinction between Jews and Gentiles, but I suspect you disagree with Paul's statement that those who will be justified are those - Jew or Gentile - who, yes, do "the law", whatever that is. Note that Paul describes justification here as a future event.

Remember what Paul has just said a few seconds ago:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Is Paul telling us the truth here? I believe that he is.

 

[expos4ever]

Of course good fruits matter and good works matter, if we dont bear good fruit we will be cast into the fire.

Great, we agree. What fun is that?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Of course good fruits matter and good works matter, if we dont bear good fruit we will be cast into the fire.
What happens with born again true believers, I mean truly the elect born again believers, not that some believers are not elect,

ALL born-again believers are the elect.

There is no place for Calvanism in this conversation as we are taking about salvation.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Great, we agree. What fun is that?

You agree that without works we go to hell?

 

[expos4ever]

You agree that without works we go to hell?

Well, whether "hell" is a place of eternal torment or a poetic way of saying one will be ultimately lost (annihilated), I agree with Paul:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Are you saying that Paul is mistaken when he says we get eternal life "according to what we have done"?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, whether "hell" is a place of eternal torment or a poetic way of saying one will be ultimately lost (annihilated), I agree with Paul:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Are you saying that Paul is mistaken when he says we get eternal life "according to what we have done"?

No what I am saying is that you took that verse out of context.

Those who have been born again have the righteousness of Christ so they are not the ones who in the above verse "reject the truth and follow evil".

That is about unbelievers, not believers.

There will be rewards in heaven according to what we have done. But hell is not an option for a believer.

 

[True Science]

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[sdowney717]

ALL born-again believers are the elect.

There is no place for Calvanism in this conversation as we are taking about salvation.

Calvinism is a system of belief to understand the scripture, one of which I am in agreement with.

I agree, if they are born again, then they are the elect.
There do exist fakes and the sign for us to know is at some point they no longer believe.

For example in Jude, but I won't repost the entire chapter. Note v5. unbelievers are destroyed, this is still true today,
Here Jude warns us by example, that though God saved the people (entire group of them) out of Egypt (rescuing them, redeeming them from
Pharaoh) afterwards destroyed those who did not believe. So Jude is telling us within our circle, people in our family, at church, people we feel a kinship towards, those we call friends, exists people who are not like us and we are not yet aware of that. However they will be exposed and their destruction is certain. Perhaps they claimed to have believed at one time but changed their mind, this just shows they are not transformed born again by the Spirit people. But maybe before they die , they will repent. God must grant that people repent or they remain in sin. They are really plants by the enemy in the field of the Lord. The Lord lets them grow up together until the harvest and then they are permanently divided one from the other and each goes to their proper place and reward.

Jude
Contend for the Faith
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Old and New Apostates
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

However elect born again truly saved, genuine transformed people will not be those that depart the faith for demonic doctrines. Since they have an anointing from the Holy ONE and know the truth, as 1 John 2 says.

Jude goes on describing what these fakes are like and they are nothing like the true born again fruit of the Spirit displaying people of God. Jude tells us by their fruit you will know them and it is going to be real obvious, they will be exposed.

Now I recently talked with an Episcopalian women who grew up in the Greek Orthodoxy who flat out made the outrageous statement the Jesus did not speak the words in John 3. She said they were just attributed to Christ. In her god philosophy, God will not condemn a person for not believing in Christ. She also fully supports gay people in the church and Mormons, Jews, Muslims who are all Christ deniers as friends in fellowship with the true God in heaven. So she is an anti-christ and is in the darkness and has not come to the light, and does not give a good testimony of the Christian faith, and frankly I can not believe she is a saved person at all. So then she is like these people who God saved out of Egypt, grew up in the church and yet is an anti-christ like person who God will destroy, unless she repents of her belief that all good people following their religion go to heaven and believes In Christ.

1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

You deny the Son when you say that He is not the only way to God.

 

[True Science]

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[True Science]

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[True Science]

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[expos4ever]

No what I am saying is that you took that verse out of context.

How have I taken anything out of context? I take the passage as it reads - those who do good get eternal life, those who do not are lost.

Those who have been born again have the righteousness of Christ so they are not the ones who in the above verse "reject the truth and follow evil".

I agree that a "true believer" will be not be among those who "reject the truth and follow evil". But what about those who get eternal life? Paul clearly says that it is according to what they have done. Do you agree with Paul?

There will be rewards in heaven according to what we have done. But hell is not an option for a believer.

Maybe so, but let's be clear: this particular text - Romans 2:6-7 - clearly and unambiguously states that we get eternal life based on what we have done.

I suspect you do not believe this.

So please let us all know - Do you believe that we get eternal life according to what we do?

I believe Paul, although I would add that only a believer empowered by the Holy Spirit can do such works.

 

[True Science]

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[brotherjerry]

The Scriptures taken as a whole are quite clear on these things but the evil traditions of men like to nitpick at the parts their evil hearts need to justify remaining rebellious and pathetic while feeling secure in God. But Peter warned about these things in 2Peter 3. People ought to listen to that and think: isn't this clearly what everyone does today? Yes it clearly is. Most of these false things like OSAS and Faith Alone and Sin Nature from Birth come from twisting Paul's letters, and without those letters people could barely find anything to twist this bad, and it is Peter who warns about this. Christ is the foundation, NOT Paul. Everything Paul says should be interpreted in light of Christ, not the other way around. A servant is not greater than his master.

Has been stated before...the idea that people who believe in eternal security somehow believe they can keep living in sin and a sinful life was never stated by anyone on this forum. Zach has failed to provide any quotes of it, and so shall you.

But John explains what it means to "overcome" in 1 John 5:4-5 "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world - our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God". So by believing we have overcome the world. Done.
1 John 5:11-12 "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."
God HAS GIVEN us eternal life for those who have the Son.

1 John 5:18 "We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him."
Those that were born again of God, is kept by God. No one who is born of God has sin counted against him. Will we still commit sin..yeah we will still go over the speed limit, roll through stop signs, etc. But sin is no longer our master and our life represents a process of sanctification as we work to be more like Christ in our earthly lives. We see that the evil one does not touch us, we cannot be led into a life of sin as God keeps us.

 

[expos4ever]

Most of these false things like OSAS and Faith Alone and Sin Nature from Birth come from twisting Paul's letters,...

I suspect we both agree that OSAS is incorrect, and that good works are necessary for salvation (even if as "evidence" of what really saves us - faith). But I think we part company on the sin nature thing. I think the scriptures clearly teach that we do inherit a sin nature. Where I think we might agree is that I share your view that it is conceptually incoherent to "blame" someone for something beyond their control. So while I do think we are born with a sin nature, and it will be our death if not dealt with, I do not think we are "blamed" for it. It's more like a fatal inherited disease that will kill us if not dealt with.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Has been stated before...the idea that people who believe in eternal security somehow believe they can keep living in sin and a sinful life was never stated by anyone on this forum. Zach has failed to provide any quotes of it, and so shall you.

But John explains what it means to "overcome" in 1 John 5:4-5 "For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world - our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God". So by believing we have overcome the world. Done.
1 John 5:11-12 "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."
God HAS GIVEN us eternal life for those who have the Son.

1 John 5:18 "We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him."
Those that were born again of God, is kept by God. No one who is born of God has sin counted against him. Will we still commit sin..yeah we will still go over the speed limit, roll through stop signs, etc. But sin is no longer our master and our life represents a process of sanctification as we work to be more like Christ in our earthly lives. We see that the evil one does not touch us, we cannot be led into a life of sin as God keeps us.

Romans 8.39 is pretty clear also.

Eternal security for the believer who trusts the work of the Lord Jesus, is hard to deny from Scripture.

Blessings.

 

[expos4ever]

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Paul is talking about everyone here. "each person" and "those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life" give it away.

I agree entirely and think this text is one that many in the Church simply do not accept (or they mangle it wildly out of shape so that it says something completely at odds with the actual wording).

Paul means exactly what he says here, I suggest.

 

[True Science]

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[True Science]

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