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[ToBeLoved]

Brother "ToBeLoved",

What is the implication of the verb "have" in these verses?

In Christ!

We do have redemption in Christ. The forgiveness of sins.

Your the one who added to that with your brackets for [ongoing].

It Doesn't say that. You added that.

 

[Jesus First]

We do have redemption in Christ. The forgiveness of sins.

Amen!

I must go. Keep the faith!

 

[brotherjerry]

Brother “ToBeLoved”,

Not only is justification an ongoing reality, so is redemption by His grace. Here are a few verses:

“In him we have [ongoing] redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace” Ephesians 1:7

“in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Colossians 1:14

While I agree with you that justification happened in the past, we can agree to disagree that it's an ongoing reality. I agree with Expos4ever that it's a future reality for believers. We've got the same Bible. If you don't see the present aspect of justification, that's between you and the Lord.

In Christ!

ToBeLoved is right on this one...you have this one incorrect.

While you are right in that "have redemption" is an ongoing thing...we are redeemed...we do not have to keep redeeming ourselves...thus redemption is an ongoing thing. Just like justification. We are justified once and we do not have to keep justifying ourselves, Christ's blood is our justification, as it was yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

 

[Meowzltov]

While you are right in that "have redemption" is an ongoing thing...we are redeemed...we do not have to keep redeeming ourselves...thus redemption is an ongoing thing. Just like justification. We are justified once and we do not have to keep justifying ourselves, Christ's blood is our justification, as it was yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Every time we fall into serious sin (sin unto death), we must repent and rely upon Christ's once and for all sacrifice again. When Christ forgives us our sins, he forgives us our past and present sins. He CANNOT forgive sins for which we have not yet repented.

 

[expos4ever]

Sure, as long as we agree that this future salvation hinges on continued obedience of the Law.

I am not sure what you mean. I suspect (but only suspect) that you are saying that justification based on doing the law is only theoretically possible and that none, in fact, will achieve it.

If so, I think that view really does not work. Earlier in the same chapter, Paul says that eternal life is awarded based on what we do. Are you saying that is only theoretically true as well?

No competent writer would say "people will be justified by doing the law" or "people will get eternal life based on how they have lived" if, in fact, that writer believes this will never happen.

Paul means what he says when he says that faith justifies.

And he also means what he says when he says that how we live - "our good works" as it were - will be the "test criterion" for final justification. We have to accept all that Paul says. And it makes sense - the "good works" are the evidence that the faith is real.

Of course, perhaps I have entirely misunderstood your position.

 

[expos4ever]

Well let's go through it then.

"What is justification?

Simply put, to justify is to declare righteous, to make one right with God.

I actually disagree with this, but with qualifications. I believe that Biblically, to be justified is to be declared to be a member of God's true covenant family. This, I suggest, is the most foundational aspect of Biblical justification. And yes, this does involve being declared "in the right" as you are suggesting. But I think the covenant aspect is primary if, repeat if, we look to the Biblical narrative for our understanding of justification, and not simply refer to a kind of dictionary definition.

Justification is God’s declaring those who receive Christ to be righteous, based on Christ’s righteousness being imputed to the accounts of those who receive Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21).

I know many people believe this, but I think the Bible never teaches the imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer. Yes, we are imputed "righteousness" but it is not Jesus' righteousness per se. We can discuss this whole issue if you like, including this famous text from 1 Corinthians 5.

Romans 3:21-26:
“But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Note how the text does not clearly establish that we get God's (or Jesus's) own righteousness. Yes, we get righteousness, but I suggest we get the "standard" righteousness anyone gets when acquitted in the lawcourt: one is simply declared "in the right" without needing to have someone else's righteousness imputed to you.

There is also a HUGE translation issue here:

Here is how the Young's Literal Version renders this verse:

and the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,

Huge difference, yes?

For a range of reasons I do not want to get into (will make the post too long), I will assert the following:

In this particular verse, Paul is not saying we are made righteous through faith, he is saying that through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, we are made righteous.

In what sense has Jesus been faithful? He has been faithful in the sense that He has taken Israel's covenant obligations on Himself and has, unlike Israel itself, faithfully fulfilled them.

Having said all this, I am not denying that Paul is also saying that we are declared righteous through faith (but the works must be there as evidence - Romans 2).

 

[expos4ever]

We are justified, declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation.

Well, yes, but in the qualified sense that this declaration in the present anticipates the future declaration at the great universal judgment described in Romans 2 and elsewhere.

Justification does not make us righteous, but rather pronounces us righteous.

I completely agree and think this is an important distinction to draw. I suspect that most people think that justification is indeed what makes us righteous, but I agree with you that this is not really correct.

 

[brotherjerry]

Sorry OpenHeart but I have to disagree with just about everything you said there. And the Bible does as well.

James 2:10-11 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. For He who said, 'Do not commit adultry,' also said, 'Do not commit murder'.
Romans 3:10 As it is written: 'None is righteous, no, not one'
Matthew 5:28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

We see clearly that sin is sin in the eyes of God. Even thinking about sin equates to sin to God.

As to not forgiving us sins we have not repented of. Do you know about the Old Testament? More specifically of the Sin Offerings?
Leviticus 5:17 Now if a person sins and does any of the things which the Lord has commanded not to be done, though he was unaware, still he is guilty and shall bear his punishment.
It is clear that even if we do not know, God will judge us for it. They were then directed to make a blood offering just as they would for any other sin offering.

So when Christ does forgive us, when we are redeemed, we are redeemed for the sins we know of and confess as well as the sins we did not know of.

 

[expos4ever]

While I agree with you that justification happened in the past, we can agree to disagree that it's an ongoing reality. I agree with Expos4ever that it's a future reality for believers.

Thanks, but I think that justification is not a "process", despite what I wrote may have led you to think that I believe. I think that Paul's model of justification is complex but it is essentially this:

On the basis of belief in Jesus, one is declared - right now, at the point of belief - to be a true covenant member with the right to all that goes with this including, but not limited to, salvation. But this declaration is only a foreshadowing - a look ahead if you will - of the time in the future when God will declare who is, and who is not, a member of His covenant family. So it's not a process per se. Final justification is a discrete declaration that will happen in the future, but God anticipates it, and therefore also declare it, in the present.

I realize this is complicated but I believe it respects all the nuances of what Paul is saying.

 

[True Science]

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[True Science]

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[True Science]

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[True Science]

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[True Science]

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[brotherjerry]

True Science. The Jews would make several offerings typically each year at the Temple.

Burnt offering - This was represented submission to God's will.
Peace offering - Expression of thanksgiving and gratitude to God.
Sin Offering - Atonement for and purge of sin.
Guilt Offering - Atonement for sins you did not know you committed.

These are all things that required a blood sacrifice. We know that the wages of sin is death, it is the blood offering. And Christ paid that price for us through the shedding of His blood. His blood was shed for the atonement of sins period. The Bible does not say that His blood was shed only for the sins you knew about...it just expresses for sins. So when we submit to God and ask for His forgiveness...He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9). That means even the sins we did not know we had committed.

 

[sdowney717]

True Science. The Jews would make several offerings typically each year at the Temple.

Burnt offering - This was represented submission to God's will.
Peace offering - Expression of thanksgiving and gratitude to God.
Sin Offering - Atonement for and purge of sin.
Guilt Offering - Atonement for sins you did not know you committed.

These are all things that required a blood sacrifice. We know that the wages of sin is death, it is the blood offering. And Christ paid that price for us through the shedding of His blood. His blood was shed for the atonement of sins period. The Bible does not say that His blood was shed only for the sins you knew about...it just expresses for sins. So when we submit to God and ask for His forgiveness...He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9). That means even the sins we did not know we had committed.

We can add in Romans 3, so clear to read, why dont people believe it.
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Those who have faith in Jesus continue to be justified, they never ever lose their justification, this is continuous, for those have faith, results in their continual justification since they continue to believe in Christ. Never does it say they have it, then they lose it.
All people who have faith in Christ are justified by God and always will be as long as they have faith in Jesus.
All people who have no faith in Christ are not justified by God and never will be as long as they have no faith in Jesus.
The process of becoming mature, learning is an ongoing process, but our salvation Rock of Christ in our life is a firm foundation.

Believing in the ROCK is a LOCK on your salvation, why? Because of the power of God. John 6 so clear, why dont people believe what Jesus says?

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Some people must think they are stronger than God. God's will supersedes our own will since we are not born of the will of the FLESH or the will of men, but of God as John 1 says. That which is flesh is flesh, that which is Spirit is Spirit. And we are not born again out of our will of the flesh.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law isthe knowledge of sin.

God’s Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Boasting Excluded
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

 

[expos4ever]

Some people must think they are stronger than God. God's will supersedes our own will since we are not born of the will of the FLESH or the will of men, but of God as John 1 says.

But things cannot be this simple since it is clear that even the most obedient believer sometimes does things that clearly cannot be the will of God and are, instead, products of the willful action of that believer: I suggest the evidence of real life shows that sometime our will can indeed be stronger than God's in terms of a determinative effect on what we do. I do not see how the John 6 passage rules out the possibility that the believer can "walk away". Yes, God's will is that this does not happen, but it is clear from the data of everyday life that God's will does not always prevail. So aren't you assuming that God's will necessarily prevails in the context of the John 6 passage?

Paul means what he says in Romans 8: we need to take positive action to obey the promptings of the Spirit in order to enter into life:

11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

 

[expos4ever]

Boasting Excluded
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

This text is often used to argue that "how we live" has no bearing on justification. But that is, I suggest, a misreading that can shown to so from context.

What is "the Law" here? It is not, as many believe, the general category of "principles of moral living"; it is instead the Law of Moses. How do we know this? It is clear from the inner logic of the passage, as presented above. The Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only. So if Paul wants to say that Gentiles, too, can be justified, one definitive way to do this is to say that people are not justified by "works of the Law".

Which, of course, is what he does.

Paul is not saying good deeds don't matter unto justification - heck, he has just told us in Romans 2 that they do matter.

What Paul is saying here is that justification is not limited to those who do the works of the Law of Moses. That is, to Jews.

This interpretation lends perfect inner coherence to the passage and its emphasis on the fact that Gentiles are part of the plan, too.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Every time we fall into serious sin (sin unto death), we must repent and rely upon Christ's once and for all sacrifice again. When Christ forgives us our sins, he forgives us our past and present sins. He CANNOT forgive sins for which we have not yet repented.

Why have we been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise til the day of redemption then?

Our sin can take away the Holy Spirit that is our guarantee til the day of redemption?

Your sin can take away God's promise, His covenant with us?

Show me in the Word where God takes away His promise/covenant with us because of our sin?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Paul is not saying good deeds don't matter unto justification - heck, he has just told us in Romans 2 that they do matter.

What Paul is saying here is that justification is not limited to those who do the works of the Law of Moses. That is, to Jews.

This interpretation lends perfect inner coherence to the passage and its emphasis on the fact that Gentiles are part of the plan, too.

You do not understand justification. Justification is that Jesus has made us rightoeuss by His blood. HE has IMPUTED HIS righteousness on US. HE is our ADVOCATE to THE FATHER.

What you are saying is that we can UNDO the RIGHTEOUSNESS that Christ gave us when HE MADE US RIGHTEOUSS.

Jesus said

John 10:28-29
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.