[deleted]

[expos4ever]

The Bible describes our justification (as believers) as a past fact (Romans 5:1; 5:9; 8:30; 1 Corinthians 6:11, etc.), a present ongoing reality (Romans 3:24; 3:28; 4:5; Galatians 2:17; Titus 3:7; James 2:24, etc.). The verses provided are not exhaustive. In fact, there are many more than provided. If my understanding of justification is incorrect, please advise.

You are, of course, quite correct. And there is also justification in the future:

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

...and this is said in the context of a treatment of a future judgment for all humankind.

It is simply and obviously incorrect to claim that justification is a one-timer, and I don't know how people can say this given all the various tenses used to describe justification. I think NT Wright has it right (no pun intended):

1. The question of justification is a matter of covenant membership. The underlying question in (for instance) Gal. 3 and 4 is: Who are the true children of Abraham? Paul’s answer is that membership belongs to all who believe in the gospel of Jesus, whatever their racial or moral background.

2. The basis of this verdict is the representative death and resurrection of Jesus himself. In view of universal sin, God can only be in covenant with human beings if that sin is dealt with, and this has been achieved by God himself in the death of his Son (Rom. 3:24-26; 5:8-9). Jesus takes on himself the curse which would have prevented God’s promised blessing finding fulfilment (Gal. 3:10-14). The resurrection is God’s declaration that Jesus, and hence his people, are in the right before God (Rom. 4:24-25).

3. The verdict issued in the present on the basis of faith (Rom. 3:21-26) correctly anticipates the verdict to be issued in the final judgment on the basis of the total life (Rom. 2:1-16, on which see Cranfield, Romans, vol. 1, pp. 151-153). This future ‘verdict’ is in fact, seen from another angle, simply resurrection itself (Phil. 3:9-11). The logic of this ‘eschatological’ perspective is explained as follows: faith is itself the sign of God’s life-giving work, by his Spirit (1 Cor. 12:3), and what God has begun he will complete (Phil. 1:6).

4. Justification thus establishes the church as a new entity, the renewed Israel, now qualitatively distinct from Jew and Greek alike, transcending racial and social barriers (Gal. 3:28). The sharp edge of this point, for Paul, was the conviction not only that pagan converts to Christianity did not need to become Jews in order fully to belong to God’s people, but also that the attempt to do so was in itself a renunciation of the gospel, implying that Christ’s achievement was insufficient or even unnecessary (Gal. 2:21; 5:4—6). At the same time, Paul warns pagan converts against the opposite mistake, that of imagining Jews to be now cut off without hope — the mirror image of the characteristic Jewish mistake, and one which some post-Reformation theology has not always avoided (Rom. 11:13-24).

5. ‘Justification by faith’ is thus a shorthand for ‘justification by grace through faith’, and in Paul’s thought at least has nothing to do with a suspicious attitude towards good behaviour.

 

[brotherjerry]

Romans 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin
Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him
Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Galatians 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”
Galatians 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So here we have 11 verses that have "Justified" in them.
3 verses say Justified by faith
6 verses specifically say not by work
1 says by the blood.
1 verse says by works and not by faith alone.

So when we have 9 verses that clearly state justification specifically is not by works or by faith alone, and only 1 that says by works and not by faith alone...we have to look at that one and see if we got it wrong.
When you explore James further you see that he talks about the relationship between works and faith, and how our works represent what our faith is. So if you see a person who says they are saved but they are not doing the works of God...they probably did not have faith to begin with. James is talking about how by our faith, we should be doing great things for Christ. Which fits in with what the other 10 verses are talking about.

 

[sdowney717]

Romans 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin
Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him
Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Galatians 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”
Galatians 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

So here we have 11 verses that have "Justified" in them.
3 verses say Justified by faith
6 verses specifically say not by work
1 says by the blood.
1 verse says by works and not by faith alone.

So when we have 9 verses that clearly state justification specifically is not by works or by faith alone, and only 1 that says by works and not by faith alone...we have to look at that one and see if we got it wrong.
When you explore James further you see that he talks about the relationship between works and faith, and how our works represent what our faith is. So if you see a person who says they are saved but they are not doing the works of God...they probably did not have faith to begin with. James is talking about how by our faith, we should be doing great things for Christ. Which fits in with what the other 10 verses are talking about.

Christians will have good works, since God is at work within them to do of His good pleasure.
There is no measuring scale for good works and our being saved, just that they will do some good works.
Our good works God will reward us in Heaven in some capacity.

What good work did the thief on the cross do? However that thief did confess his belief, acknowledging Christ at the end of his life. I assume most people will think the thief must have done a lot of bad things.

those who Christ says will be with Christ, they are accepted by Him in the beloved, they are family and Christ was not ashamed of this thief or any repentant sinner even if they seemed to have done nothing good for God. You can also say, the thief offered up a good testimony of faith to those who heard him speak at the end. The thief exhibited a spiritual gift of faith which is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. We bear those fruits OF the Spirit who believe since God has birthed them within us. They are not called fruits of the Spirit for an idle natural reason, they are a result of his supernatural power working on the inside of us who believe.

 

[expos4ever]

So here we have 11 verses that have "Justified" in them.

But please don't forget this one:

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

So when we have 9 verses that clearly state justification specifically is not by works or by faith alone, and only 1 that says by works and not by faith alone...we have to look at that one and see if we got it wrong.
When you explore James further you see that he talks about the relationship between works and faith, and how our works represent what our faith is. So if you see a person who says they are saved but they are not doing the works of God...they probably did not have faith to begin with. James is talking about how by our faith, we should be doing great things for Christ. Which fits in with what the other 10 verses are talking about.

I can go along with this and the verse I cited above can be read the same way.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You guys do not understand justification.

Christ justifies us once. When we come to Him by faith. Faith is what WE have. Justification is what HE does.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

OSAS and Faith Alone Understanding of Romans 8:35-39 REFUTED

I trust that Luther and Calvin had better understandings, being that they were priests and theologians who reformed Christianity in the first place. But thanks anyways

 

[expos4ever]

You guys do not understand justification.

Christ justifies us once. When we come to Him by faith. Faith is what WE have. Justification is what HE does.

There are many texts which variously place justification in the past, present, and future. What do you think Paul means here:

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

What, and please be specific, do we not understand about justification. Do you deny what Paul states above - that 'what we do' will be connected to how we are justified?

 

[ToBeLoved]

There are many texts which variously place justification in the past, present, and future. What do you think Paul means here:

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

What, and please be specific, do we not understand about justification. Do you deny what Paul states above - that 'what we do' will be connected to how we are justified?

He is talking about the differences between the Jews and gentiles.

Romans 2:12-16
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. 17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;

 

[Meowzltov]

You are, of course, quite correct. And there is also justification in the future:

13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Sure, as long as we agree that this future salvation hinges on continued obedience of the Law.

 

[ToBeLoved]

He is talking about the differences between the Jews and gentiles.

Romans 2:12-16
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. 17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;


So again, we are only justified once.

 

[Jesus First]

Those who depart the faith are not justified by faith since they have no faith, so they are not justified by God.
Inside their occult spirituality, they were never born again, so never had the gift of faith to believe, since God preserves His saints, as Jude says.
God's saints God saves, and they do not abandon their faith for demonic worldly doctrines.

Psalm 37:28
For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Brother “sdowney717”,

Our theology should be balanced from Scripture. By this I don't mean to imply that my theology is 100% correct. It’s being refined over time from God’s Word.

You are correct that Jude informs believers that they are, “kept for Jesus Christ” (v. 1b). But he also tasks his readers with responsibility: “But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.” Jude 20. While we are “kept for Jesus Christ”, we must

The author of Hebrews would not agree with your belief that everyone in the faith today will “not abandon their faith”:

“6 but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if [conditional] indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.” Hebrews 3:6

The author of Hebrews continued, “12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God [a possibility in the author's mind]. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.” Hebrews 3:12-14

God is always faithful. Should we be unfaithful, it does not make God unfaithful.

You quoted Psalm 37:28. Here it is with the verse prior which places it in perspective:

“27 Turn away from evil and do good; so shall you dwell forever. 28 For the Lord loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.” Psalm 37:27-28

In Christ!

 

[Jesus First]

You guys do not understand justification.

Christ justifies us once. When we come to Him by faith. Faith is what WE have. Justification is what HE does.

Brother "ToBeLoved",

You are correct that "faith is what we have" and "Justification is what HE does" [end of your quotes]. I respectfully challenge you to reconsider your view that justification is a past completed act. The Bible is never in error.

In the love of Christ!

 

[sdowney717]

Brother “sdowney717”,

Our theology should be balanced from Scripture. By this I don't mean to imply that my theology is 100% correct. It’s being refined over time from God’s Word.

You are correct that Jude informs believers that they are, “kept for Jesus Christ” (v. 1b). But he also tasks his readers with responsibility: “But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life.” Jude 20. While we are “kept for Jesus Christ”, we must

The author of Hebrews would not agree with your belief that everyone in the faith today will “not abandon their faith”:

“6 but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if [conditional] indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.” Hebrews 3:6

The author of Hebrews continued, “12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God [a possibility in the author's mind]. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.” Hebrews 3:12-14

God is always faithful. Should we be unfaithful, it does not make God unfaithful.

You quoted Psalm 37:28. Here it is with the verse prior which places it in perspective:

“27 Turn away from evil and do good; so shall you dwell forever. 28 For the Lord loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. They are preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.” Psalm 37:27-28

In Christ!

That is called the perseverance of the saints.
I also like this one
Rev 17
4 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

First called else we wont be chosen else we wont be faithful.
Yes we temper our understanding with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ like these
John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Jesus has the preeminence, all the other salvation doctrines must agree with Christ.
Those who continue to believe prove they are the ones Christ has been given to Him by the Father to be saved.

 

[Meowzltov]

There are many texts which variously place justification in the past, present, and future.

But the verses regarding future salvation are conditional.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Brother "ToBeLoved",

You are correct that "faith is what we have" and "Justification is what HE does" [end of your quotes]. I respectfully challenge you to reconsider your view that justification is a past completed act. The Bible is never in error.

In the love of Christ!

dup.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Brother "ToBeLoved",

You are correct that "faith is what we have" and "Justification is what HE does" [end of your quotes]. I respectfully challenge you to reconsider your view that justification is a past completed act. The Bible is never in error.

In the love of Christ!

Well let's go through it then.

"What is justification?

Simply put, to justify is to declare righteous, to make one right with God.

Justification is God’s declaring those who receive Christ to be righteous, based on Christ’s righteousness being imputed to the accounts of those who receive Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Romans 3:21-26:
“But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”


We are justified, declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation. Justification does not make us righteous, but rather pronounces us righteous. Our righteousness comes from placing our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. His sacrifice covers our sin, allowing God to see us as perfect and unblemished. Because as believers we are in Christ, God sees Christ's own righteousness when He looks at us. This meets God's demands for perfection; thus, He declares us righteous—He justifies us.

Romans 5:18-19
“Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.”

It is because of justification that the peace of God can rule in our lives. It is because of justification that believers can have assurance of salvation. It is the fact of justification that enables God to begin the process of sanctification—the process by which God makes us in reality what we already are positionally.

Romans 5:1
“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ”

 

[Jesus First]

Well let's go through it then.

"What is justification?

Simply put, to justify is to declare righteous, to make one right with God.

Justification is God’s declaring those who receive Christ to be righteous, based on Christ’s righteousness being imputed to the accounts of those who receive Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Romans 3:21-26:
“But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.”


We are justified, declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation. Justification does not make us righteous, but rather pronounces us righteous. Our righteousness comes from placing our faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. His sacrifice covers our sin, allowing God to see us as perfect and unblemished. Because as believers we are in Christ, God sees Christ's own righteousness when He looks at us. This meets God's demands for perfection; thus, He declares us righteous—He justifies us.

Romans 5:18-19
“Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.”

It is because of justification that the peace of God can rule in our lives. It is because of justification that believers can have assurance of salvation. It is the fact of justification that enables God to begin the process of sanctification—the process by which God makes us in reality what we already are positionally.

Romans 5:1
“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ”

Brother “ToBeLoved”,

Not only is justification an ongoing reality, so is redemption by His grace. Here are a few verses:

“In him we have [ongoing] redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace” Ephesians 1:7

“in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Colossians 1:14

While I agree with you that justification happened in the past, we can agree to disagree that it's an ongoing reality. I agree with Expos4ever that it's a future reality for believers. We've got the same Bible. If you don't see the present aspect of justification, that's between you and the Lord.

In Christ!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Brother “ToBeLoved”,

Not only is justification an ongoing reality, so is redemption by His grace. Here are a few verses:

“In him we have [ongoing] redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace” Ephesians 1:7

“in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Colossians 1:14

While I agree with you that justification happened in the past, we can agree to disagree that it's an ongoing reality. I agree with Expos4ever that it's a future reality for believers. We've got the same Bible. If you don't see the present aspect of justification, that's between you and the Lord.

In Christ!

With all due respect you have this one wrong.

I also do not think that you should add in brackets like [ongoing] anything to God's Word.

Because I know you are wrong on this one.

Justification happens once.
Sanctification happens over our lifetime.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Brother “ToBeLoved”,

Not only is justification an ongoing reality, so is redemption by His grace. Here are a few verses:

“In him we have [ongoing] redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace” Ephesians 1:7

“in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Colossians 1:14

While I agree with you that justification happened in the past, we can agree to disagree that it's an ongoing reality. I agree with Expos4ever that it's a future reality for believers. We've got the same Bible. If you don't see the present aspect of justification, that's between you and the Lord.

In Christ!

Neither of those verses show ongoing.

Neither.

 

[Jesus First]

Neither of those verses show ongoing.

Neither.

Brother "ToBeLoved",

What is the implication of the verb "have" in these verses?

In Christ!