[deleted]

[expos4ever]

I have changed my mind before, based on what I read in Scriptures....,

Thanks for reading my post. Can you point me to any thread in any forum where a person has clearly been convinced to change their mind on a matter of doctrine?

 

[expos4ever]

Now take a look here at
John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

This verse clearly states that no one can be taken from the Father's hand. The conditional salvation theology adds to this verse by claiming an omission...Typically they claim that the verse does not say that someone could not walk out of the Father's hands. But in reality it does say that...it says that 'no one is able'...no one is no one...not even yourself.

This is an example of what I have been saying - I think you are over-reaching on this teaching. But my counterargument will be based on something I cannot "prove" or even substantiate without getting into a huge treatment of linguistic and cultural concepts. And none of us has time for that. This is why these arguments are largely futile - even if something is pretty obvious (and I suggest it is indeed obvious to me that you are over-reaching): it takes too much effort to make the actual case that needs to be made. C'est la vie.

Here is what I have to say: I take it as self-evident from a general knowledge of language and culture that such metaphors are not to be taken as precise, almost mathematical formulations. And with respect to this particular item, I will indeed claim that such "no one will be able to snatch them" language does indeed implicitly exclude the issue of you choosing to walk away. Now, you clearly believe this teaching covers that possibility.

But, and this is really important, you cannot claim that you have actually made that case - you have provided no argument that the "you as the person who could walk away" possibility is excluded here. You will no doubt disagree, but I suggest your objection will entail an unsubstantiated assumption that language is to be analyzed a certain way: you will approach this from an assumption that words and concepts have clear boundaries and that "no one" means "no one, not even you". I, on the other hand, would argue from linguistic/conceptual considerations culture that "no one" does not even address the "you". And you could, of course, simply deny this is a legitimate approach. And so I am sure we will remain at an impasse. But I am happy to let any neutral readers weigh the relevant arguments.

In short, and I am sure you will deny this even though I think it is quite clear: it is conceptually incoherent to "snatch" yourself out of anything. It is the very nature of the concept of "you being snatched" that the concept is limited to external agents.

Have you ever heard anyone say anything akin to "I snatched myself out that building before the flames got too intense" or "I snatched myself out the claws of my jealous girlfriend"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I disagree and will claim that a common way to get misled is to over-reach on metaphors. Yes, we have references to our eternal future being "sealed", but some seals can indeed be broken.

Who can show from Scripture that the sealing with the Holy Spirit, noted in Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 can be broken. Remember, physical seals were meant to be broken, but only by someone authorized to do so. But the Bible isn't speaking of a physical seal here. It is the Holy Spirit Himself who seals the believer. And note the words used in these verses: guarantee, promise. Does God break His promises?

So while we shouldn't over-reach on metaphors, we should also not try to equate physical seals with the Holy Spirit Himself, who cannot be broken.

 

[expos4ever]

Who can show from Scripture that the sealing with the Holy Spirit, noted in Eph 1:13,14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 can be broken. Remember, physical seals were meant to be broken, but only by someone authorized to do so. But the Bible isn't speaking of a physical seal here. It is the Holy Spirit Himself who seals the believer. And note the words used in these verses: guarantee, promise. Does God break His promises?

So while we shouldn't over-reach on metaphors, we should also not try to equate physical seals with the Holy Spirit Himself, who cannot be broken.

I know I won't convince you, but I can assure you, the reference to a seal is indeed a metaphor - it is a clear comparison to 'seals' such as the seal placed on a letter by an official.

And your oft-used strategy of insisting on counter-examples has been repeatedly dealt with: you cannot legitimately argue that the absence of examples of seals being broken comprises proof that such seals cannot indeed be broken.

 

[brotherjerry]

Expos...

Metaphors are used in the Bible, but specific metaphors are used to present specific situations or ideas.

In the verse that says no one can snatch you from God's hands. Can you draw us a picture with words on what you think those hands look like with you in them? Are you imagining a "Kung-Fu" thing (the TV show with David Carradine) where the master monk is standing there with a pebble in his hand and the objective is to be faster than the monk and snatch it? Me personally I imagine like you would hold a firefly (also a great show ) with both hands clasped together. And the Bible supports this sort of imagery when it speaks of God being the keeper of our souls, protecting us, keeping us from harm, etc, etc. God is a protector, not a competitor to see who is faster.

So tell me if God's hands are clasped around you...how do you walk away from that? Are you stronger than God and can push open His hands so you can get out? The metaphor of being in the hands of God and used as it was is to present an image of security in God's hands. Something taught many times in the Bible. And it is for that reason, the clasped hands that "no one" would actually even apply to the one who is securely kept inside. Specific metaphors to represent a specific meaning.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello JesusFirst.

A very tough subject this one, and one not for the fainthearted.

Your doing well so far, JesusFirst.

You have stated 'context' often in your posts, and this is the secret to understanding
the scripture.

Though you stated the following in your previous post #25.

I'm being saved by grace and faith

Your faith is a gift from God Himself, it would be incorrect to say that you are
being saved by Grace and faith.

Romans 12:3
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more
highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment,
as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

So we cannot claim that we are saved at any time by our faith. Saved by Grace, most
certainly is a valid claim. After all JesusFirst, we are only ever saved by the Grace of
the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Acts 20:24
But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my
course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the
gospel of the grace of God.

Galatians 1:6
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ,
for a different gospel.

Philippians 1:7
For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart,
since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all
are partakers of grace with me.

Grace first, second, and last, only by Gace alone, are we ever saved.

 

[sdowney717]

Here is more evidence that faith is a gift from God, right in v1

2 Peter 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting the Faithful
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

How did they obtain faith? Fantastic don't you think.
Their faith was obtained by God's power who is Jesus Christ.

And going further
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord,3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,

Has GIVEN to us all things, so yes all those things He gave are gifts to us.

Salvation belongs to the Lord!

 

[sdowney717]

Thanks for reading my post. Can you point me to any thread in any forum where a person has clearly been convinced to change their mind on a matter of doctrine?

I can not point out any specific post, I can not possible remember such a thing. What happens is people just post differently that they did before. They might say I used to believe this way, but now etc... Which I have read people saying.

 

[klutedavid]

Thanks for reading my post. Can you point me to any thread in any forum where a person has clearly been convinced to change their mind on a matter of doctrine?

Hello Expos4ever.

I have been corrected by others three times in the last five years. These three corrections
were matters relating to minor doctrine, I took these corrections to heart though.

Christian forums are a wonderful place to meet people, and to hear interpretations, that
otherwise one would never know about.

Surely you have seen folk handling a particular verse for example, very differently, to how
you would interpret that verse?

 

[Jesus First]

Hello JesusFirst.

A very tough subject this one, and one not for the fainthearted.

Your doing well so far, JesusFirst.

You have stated 'context' often in your posts, and this is the secret to understanding
the scripture.

Though you stated the following in your previous post #25.

Your faith is a gift from God Himself, it would be incorrect to say that you are
being saved by Grace and faith.

Romans 12:3
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more
highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment,
as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

So we cannot claim that we are saved at any time by our faith. Saved by Grace, most
certainly is a valid claim. After all JesusFirst, we are only ever saved by the Grace of
the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Acts 20:24
But I do not consider my life of any account as dear to myself, so that I may finish my
course and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify solemnly of the
gospel of the grace of God.

Galatians 1:6
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ,
for a different gospel.

Philippians 1:7
For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart,
since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all
are partakers of grace with me.

Grace first, second, and last, only by Gace alone, are we ever saved.

Hello dear brother "klutedavid",

Thanks for reaching out to me and sharing words of wisdom.

Does our believing faith come from God? I believe it does. We are saved by faith in Jesus Christ. He gives us faith to believe in Him. There is nothing good in ourselves. Our very breaths are a gift from God.

The first sentence of Ephesians 2:8 (based on my understanding) "is a gift of God". Some attribute faith as a gift. I think it's more than just faith (the ability to trust in Him). Grace, which is unmerited favor is a gift. Our salvation and everything good from God is a gift.

Worthy is the Lamb to be praised! How God can love us who are so unlovable demands our praise. I'll admit –I don't praise Him enough. He is worthy!

Sometimes I'm so discussed with myself because of something I did or thought (often). Then I remember how unworthy I am to be a child of God!

According to James, good gifts come from above.

I don't believe anything good that we do or posses in ourselves that is worth anything. If there is anything good we must place it at the feet of Jesus. Because it originated from Him.

So to answer you question, klutedavid. The faith I have originates from God. Yes, I (we) have faith but it comes from God. So on a previous post, I should have written it differently. He gives me faith. It originates from HIM!

In Christ who gives me faith!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I know I won't convince you, but I can assure you, the reference to a seal is indeed a metaphor - it is a clear comparison to 'seals' such as the seal placed on a letter by an official.

Your "assurance" is based on what, specifically? Seems more of an opinion than anything from Scripture.

In FACT, the sealing is WITH the Holy Spirit. As a GUARANTEE. I hope everyone understands what a guarantee means. And PROMISE. Those are used when Paul spoke of this sealing.

And your oft-used strategy of insisting on counter-examples has been repeatedly dealt with: you cannot legitimately argue that the absence of examples of seals being broken comprises proof that such seals cannot indeed be broken.

I sure can. The Bible doesn't teach that the sealing with the Holy Spirit can be broken. It is only a gross assumption to make that claim.

 

[expos4ever]

Hello Expos4ever.

I have been corrected by others three times in the last five years. These three corrections
were matters relating to minor doctrine, I took these corrections to heart though.

Fair enough but have you ever witnessed anyone changing their fundamental position on a major doctrine like, say, OSAS, predestination, justification by works, etc.

I have never seen this. And I have posted about 20,000 posts on various Christian forums.

As much as I would like to have as optimistic a view as you, I would say these forums provide an absolute clinic in denial of the obvious, absurd exegesis, and various other forms of violence perpetrated against both the scriptures and the principles of basis rational thinking.

I post for two reasons: (1) lurkers who may at least be somewhat open-minded; and (2) to hone my ability to write (my job centres on writing).

 

[expos4ever]

I sure can. The Bible doesn't teach that the sealing with the Holy Spirit can be broken. It is only a gross assumption to make that claim.

I am trying to be as polite as I can but your reasoning is fundamentally flawed.

I will illustrate by analogy: Suppose the scripture said: "Door X is locked". Now it turns out the concept of "being locked", as a concept, allows for the possibility of reversal through an unlocking action - this is "built in" to the very concept of "being locked" itself. This should be apparent to anyone who is familiar with the concept of what it means to lock something.

Locks can be "unlocked".

The scripture does not need to give examples of such unlocking as the very concept itself embeds the possibility of unlocking.

Imagine if I argued that it was impossible to accept Jesus on a Thursday morning. Using your line of argument, I could defend this position by saying that since there are no examples in the Bible of people being saved on a Thursday morning, no one can, in fact, be saved on a Thursday morning.

Some seals can be broken. This is an inconvenient fact for you, of course. So your only recourse is to insist on examples of seals being broken.

Well, where is your example of someone being saved on a Thursday morning?

 

[brotherjerry]

Expos. Let me say thank you for continuing to keep the conversation civil. Open debates where civility and respect are what can allow people to explore not only their own doctrine and theology, but to explore and learn other people's doctrines and theologies.

However, you would, and apparently do agree that some seals cannot be broken, correct? How do you differentiate between the two as far as what the Bible speaks of in the verses in question?

There are really 3 different types of seal that could be presented.

One is the idea of sealing something inside of a container, like using Tupperware to seal your leftovers up to keep them fresh. This sort of concept is expressed in Ephesians 1:13 where it says "you were sealed in Him". Do you think this sort of a sealing could be broken?
Another is a seal that does close things up, but is not an airtight sort of sealing. Sort of like putting tape on a box just to close it up. This however, is not as frequent of an idea of sealing something because it can be opened much easier and/or still allows the contents to escape. However, we do see it used for example in Revelations with the book that was sealed with 7 seals.
The third is a mark, or brand. Sort of like a seal of approval. This sort of sealing something is used in the Bible at times as well (IE setting the seal on the stone of Jesus tomb). And this sort of a seal also cannot be broken.
Sure you will argue the classic idea that they used to use wax to seal up documents, like in the movies. Really that was not so much as to seal up something as it was to the symbol embedded in the wax that was the seal. Wax breaks easily, and separates from paper quite readily as well, so using it as a means to close up documents to prevent them from opening was never really the intent...the seal of whomever sent the document was the important factor. Sure you could break the wax...but the wax was not the seal...the emblem, shape, etc in the wax was the seal.

You are correct however, in your idea that something that is sealed can be unsealed...at least by concept, and depending on the type of sealing. The problem comes in when applying the idea of who did the sealing. Can anyone break a seal that God has placed? And it does not matter what kind of seal we are talking about...can just anyone break the seal of a Godware container? Even if we use the second one...can anyone break God tape? And if we are talking the third and being sealed is being marked...well you can't break a brand or a mark.

The Bible tells us that no one can snatch us from the Father's hands. Gives an indication that no one is able to break the seal.
God is described by David in Psalm 61 as "You have been a refuge for me, a tower of strength against the enemy" and "Let me take refuge in the shelter of Your wings"
1 Peter 1:5 says of Christians "who are protected by the power of God", again we see that God protects us...which is part of what being sealed would be for.
We get a pretty clear picture that when God wants something safe, it is safe. And that He has always taken on a role of protector for those who believe in Him. And when you put this with the concept of being sealed, it start so shape itself into the first concept of being in a Godware bowl.

 

[sdowney717]

Romans 8 lays this idea out well about the Lord determination and power regarding our being and remaining saved persons.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Recall when Elijah is taken up by the angelic chariots of God, his prophet friends complain to Elisha saying maybe the Spirit of the Lord dropped him, berating Elisha to the point that Elisha gives in to their demands and says ok, go out into the mountains and look for Elijah.

Lets not be like them who acted in such a way. We can read this and think how funny!, but see people today act no differently with the Lord.

2 Kings 2
15 Now when the sons of the prophets who were from Jericho saw him, they said, “The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.” And they came to meet him, and bowed to the ground before him. 16 Then they said to him, “Look now, there are fifty strong men with your servants. Please let them go and search for your master, lest perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has taken him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley.”

And he said, “You shall not send anyone.”

17 But when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, “Send them!” Therefore they sent fifty men, and they searched for three days but did not find him. 18 And when they came back to him, for he had stayed in Jericho, he said to them, “Did I not say to you, ‘Do not go’?”

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am trying to be as polite as I can but your reasoning is fundamentally flawed.

I will illustrate by analogy: Suppose the scripture said: "Door X is locked". Now it turns out the concept of "being locked", as a concept, allows for the possibility of reversal through an unlocking action - this is "built in" to the very concept of "being locked" itself. This should be apparent to anyone who is familiar with the concept of what it means to lock something.

Locks can be "unlocked".

I have ALREADY noted that physical seals are meant to be broken. But Paul was NOT talking about physical seals, but a spiritual seal, which is the Holy Spirit Himself.

Your view would have us believe that the Holy Spirit Himself can be broken. Which is irrational. Not to mention unbiblical to the core.

The scripture does not need to give examples of such unlocking as the very concept itself embeds the possibility of unlocking.

If Scripture does NOT SAY anything about the sealing of the Holy Spirit being broken by anything, then it is just pure SPECULATION to think that it can. And one has to ignore the words "guarantee" and "promise", which are associated with this sealing.

Imagine if I argued that it was impossible to accept Jesus on a Thursday morning. Using your line of argument, I could defend this position by saying that since there are no examples in the Bible of people being saved on a Thursday morning, no one can, in fact, be saved on a Thursday morning.

Some seals can be broken. This is an inconvenient fact for you, of course. So your only recourse is to insist on examples of seals being broken.

Well, where is your example of someone being saved on a Thursday morning?

In trying to be as polite as possible, none of this has any relevance at all to being sealed with the Holy Spirit. He is the seal, a GUARANTEE or PROMISE from God to the one who believes. And FOR what? The DAY of redemption.

It could NOT be more clear. Those sealed with the Holy Spirit are promised and guaranteed FOR the day of redemption.

You've not refuted what the Bible SAYS.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm just sharing something I found valuable in helping people to come to the truth of this issue. I know the truth already with certainty. I would like to share information that will help others get the same as well. I don't want to hoard it for myself. Like I said, you are welcome to share your information in the public as well. I'm confident the truth will prevail and be clearly manifest to all.

Well at least copy and paste a few snippets of your main points. That is not against copywrite if you give credit to the source with a url.

This is your thread. Give us something to talk about.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Because God is sovereign and the Bible is God's Word, we must view the doctrine of salvation through God's eyes. Does God present salvation as a past reality for believers? The answer is yes. Does God present salvation as ongoing action and not a completed action for believers? The answer is yes. Believers can confidently affirm their past and present ongoing justification. God doesn't views salvation as a completed action; neither should we.

Further evidence comes from the word "justification" which is presented in several passages as an ongoing reality for those who continue in the faith. Consider these verses:

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified [in the present] by his grace as a gift, through the redemption [ongoing gift] that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:23).

"For we hold that one is justified [right now] by faith apart from works of the law" (Rom. 3:28)

"And to the one who does not work [to earn salvation; see prior verse] but believes [an ongoing activity] in him who justifies [ongoing] the ungodly, his faith is counted [ongoing] as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

"yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law [an going action] but [how:] through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." (Gal. 2:16).

"so that being justified [in the present] by his grace we MIGHT become heirs according to the hope [desired outcome] of eternal life" (Tit. 3:7).

Summary: believers were justified (declared righteous) by God when they entered the family of Gods. Believers (those in the faith) are being justified right now in the present.

Finally, a review of your proof texts is in order. Because the Bible doesn't contradict itself, what do these verses say?

"9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God" Romans 5:9

The verse above states a past fact. Believers have been justified in the past. The verse doesn't state that justification is a completed action. He is your second proof text:

"16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." Galatians 2:16

As believers (in ongoing faith) in Jesus Christ we can also state with Paul "so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ". This verse doesn't state your claim that justification is a completed action. Again, in light of the verses provided earlier, justification is an ongoing reality for those who "faith" in Jesus.
In Christ!

Are you saying that we are justified by the blood of Jesus Christ more than once?

Justification happens once when we are being born-again spiritually. It is when Jesus Christ wipes all our sin and unrighteousness away. Our justification happens once.

Sanctification is a different matter.

 

[Jesus First]

Are you saying that we are justified by the blood of Jesus Christ more than once?

Justification happens once when we are being born-again spiritually. It is when Jesus Christ wipes all our sin and unrighteousness away. Our justification happens once.

Sanctification is a different matter.

Hi brother “ToBeLoved”,


The source to define our understanding of Justification is God’s Word. Sadly, many preachers and books present justification as a one-time, past action, never to be repeated again.


The Bible describes our justification (as believers) as a past fact (Romans 5:1; 5:9; 8:30; 1 Corinthians 6:11, etc.), a present ongoing reality (Romans 3:24; 3:28; 4:5; Galatians 2:17; Titus 3:7; James 2:24, etc.). The verses provided are not exhaustive. In fact, there are many more than provided. If my understanding of justification is incorrect, please advise.


Keep looking to Jesus.


In Christ!

 

[sdowney717]

Hi brother “ToBeLoved”,


The source to define our understanding of Justification is God’s Word. Sadly, many preachers and books present justification as a one-time, past action, never to be repeated again.


The Bible describes our justification (as believers) as a past fact (Romans 5:1; 5:9; 8:30; 1 Corinthians 6:11, etc.), a present ongoing reality (Romans 3:24; 3:28; 4:5; Galatians 2:17; Titus 3:7; James 2:24, etc.). The verses provided are not exhaustive. In fact, there are many more than provided. If my understanding of justification is incorrect, please advise.


Keep looking to Jesus.


In Christ!

Those who depart the faith are not justified by faith since they have no faith, so they are not justified by God.
Inside their occult spirituality, they were never born again, so never had the gift of faith to believe, since God preserves His saints, as Jude says.
God's saints God saves, and they do not abandon their faith for demonic worldly doctrines.

Psalm 37:28
For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.