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Jesus First
Lover of Jesus Christ
I didn't say that the Bible teaches that believers can be unsealed. It's what the Bible states in context that matters. Please stick to the Bible in context.
Contextually, and grammatically, Paul begins the first verse (Ephesians 1:1a) where he identifies his target audience as "...to the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful [present tense verb] in Christ Jesus".
Paul is not writing (contextually) to assure his readers that they can become unbelievers someday and enter into the Kingdom. I believe that a correct understanding of Scripture requires an understanding of the context.
You traffic this forum promoting the false theology that Christians today cannot under any circumstances loose their salvation. If this is untrue, please state for the record that I'm wrong.
If Christians cannot under any circumstance loose their salvation, then it means that they can optionally live the wages of sin and still inherit eternal life.
Calvinist's to their credit are correct that endurance of the faith is required. I think it's impossible to be a true student of Scripture without concluding (in time) that perseverance is necessary to be saved. This perseverance is ongoing faith in Jesus Christ.
You also don't believe that repentance (turning from sin) is a necessary requirement to be saved, correct?
I don't want to be involved in character assassination as you suggested. If I'm wrong in my conclusions about what you believe, I will apologize. I will stand before Christ very soon and give an account for what I say, to include posts in this forum.
In Christ!
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FreeGrace2
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I have. Strictly. And since the Bible makes NO mention of unsealing of any believer, there is NO REASON to ASSUME that it is possible.
Further, the verses speak for themselves. The sealing with the Holy Spirit is a GUARANTEE, a PROMISE or PLEDGE for the day of redemption.
This artificial parsing of believers into faithful and faithless and how only some verses apply to either group is nonsense.
The point of 1:13 is clear enough. Those who have believed ARE SEALED. Period.
Paul defined both justification and eternal life as irrevocable gifts of God. He also wrote that those who have believed ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit. He never described only "faithful believers" being sealed for the day of redemption.
You are absolutely WRONG to claim that salvation can be lost. Period. No verse says such a thing. And many say exactly the opposite.
That must really get under your skin, huh. Those who properly understand what grace means understands WHY one's salvation cannot be lost.
It's because it's God who saves us. We don't save ourselves. And we cannot unsave ourselves, which is really your view.
Perseverance is for blessing and reward. Not for salvation. If it were, then we are participating in our own salvation. Nonsense.
I believe the Biblical meaning of 'repent', which means to "change the mind". And in order to come to faith in Christ, one must change their mind about a lot of things. But turning from sin is a human effort and has NO BEARING on getting saved or staying saved.
We are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. But your view rejects that very simple principle.
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What FreeGrace2 Said.
Salvation lost theology puts salvation in the hands of man, which is something that the Bible speaks very much against.
No salvation lost people have ever been able to answer how much sin does it take to lose your salvation, or how many good deeds does it take to get your salvation back. There is no single verse that clearly states salvation can be lost, but there are many verses that speak of salvation and eternal life as permanent.
Salvation lost theology puts salvation in the hands of man, which is something that the Bible speaks very much against.
No salvation lost people have ever been able to answer how much sin does it take to lose your salvation, or how many good deeds does it take to get your salvation back. There is no single verse that clearly states salvation can be lost, but there are many verses that speak of salvation and eternal life as permanent.
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Jesus First
Lover of Jesus Christ
It's not what the Bible doesn't say that matters, but what it DOES says.
The sealing of the Holy Spirit is a promise to whom contextually? Verse one states to those who are presently faithful. In verse 13 Paul describes their initial belief. So who again is promised the sealing of the Holy Spirit? It's those in ongoing faith. This contextual fact is dismissed because it doesn't support your one-time belief where living the wages of sin after salvation is optional.
I'm for an understanding of Scripture based on context. Because you can't stomach the truth of Scripture based on context you resort to claiming I'm involved in artificial parsing. The Bible is only the authority for faith and practice in context.
Have you cut out the previous 12 verses out of your Bible since what Paul said in verse 13 is independent of the prior context based on your hermeneutics? Contextually, again, Paul is writing to faithful believers in the present (verse 1), who have believed in the past (verse 13) to describe how they "they were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit" (verse 13).
Again, contextually, Paul is not writing to those who have abandoned the faith to assure them that they were still sealed with the Holy Spirit. Twisting Scripture to a meaning not intended by its authors results in disastrous theology
No he didn't claim "that both justification and eternal life are irrevocable". The passage you use (Romans 11:29) is taken out of context –a practice you have mastered.
Jude wrote:
"Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 [why?] For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ" Jude 3-4.
Jude wrote about those who actively perverted the grace of God into license. This false grace theology denied "our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ". Paul told the Phillipian jailer to "believe IN THE LORD Jesus Christ to be saved. Satan's imitation allows for one to live the wages of sin under the license of grace after a one-time imitation faith where following Jesus Christ and discipleship are optional.
I don't believe we can save ourselves. Jesus would have died in vain. I'm being saved by grace and faith; apart from my works (Ephesians 2:8-9).
This passage in Ephesians is clear that our works don't save us. Your "straw man" argument that I believe I can save myself is just that. I forgive you!
The only participation we have is faith in Jesus Christ. He saves sinners like me who cannot save themselves. To trust in Christ for salvation is to do something.
The Apostle Paul believed that endurance is necessary. He wrote, "Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if [conditional] you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain [a possibility]." 1 Corinthians 15:1-2.
This is confirmation that you believe people can come to Jesus in love with their sins to be saved and commit worst sins after being saved and still enter heaven. Your "choke on sin" gospel comes right out of hell from the father of lies. You pervert the gospel into a grace license to sin.
Words have a range of meaning defined by context. The word "repent" is not an exception.
Paul said, "but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance." Acts 26:20 (see surrounding verses for context).
Your theology doesn't allow context to define repentance. It can't mean more than a change of mind because your ungodly theology forbids it.
Please provide proof for your gospel that "turning from sin is a human effort". How about believing in Christ for salvation? If it's not a human effort what is it?
.
How does my view deny salvation by "grace through faith"? Please provide proof.
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Jesus First
Lover of Jesus Christ
Brother Jerry,
Please back up your beliefs with Scripture using the contextual and grammatical method of interpretation.
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FreeGrace2
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Actually, it's both. Those claiming things that the Bible does NOT SAY or teach are out on a very thin limb. Kinda like making things up.
Believers. Contextually.
No. Here is the verse from the NASB: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
Since the "who are" before 'faithful' is in italitics, we know that those words don't occur in the original. They were supplied by the translators.
The verse is to "the saints", which would be believers. And "faithful in Christ Jesus".
Believers. Again, your view isn't supported by the actual text: In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
The phrase "having also believed" means those who have believed. It does NOT mean "ONLY the faithful who have believed", as is being supposed or presumed.
See above for refutation.
You have no clue as to what I can't stomach. And your false judging of other believers is strictly condemned by Scripture.
Absolutely.
See above for refutation.
No, he's not writing only to the faithful ones. He wrote to THE SAINTS and faithful.
Paul does warn against falling away. But NO WHERE in those verses does he mention the warning of loss of salvation for those who fall away.
And why did Paul say in Rom 8:38 that even "those things present and things future" CANNOT separate us from the love of Christ, IF IF IF falling away from the faith in the future leads to loss of salvation? There is no rational answer to that question from the insecurity crowd.
Yes, he did. He described BOTH justification and eternal life as gifts. I've already given the verses where he did. After 6:23 where he described eternal life as a gift of God, the VERY NEXT time he mentions gifts is in 11:29 where he said they are irrevocable.
Nonsense. The context for 'gifts' is WHERE he already mentioned and described them. As I have clearly shown repeatedly.
There is NO MENTION of loss of salvation in either passage. So, where are they?
But your view is that you can lose yourself by loss of faith. There is no functional difference.
If loss of salvation were possible, then Jesus' death WAS in vain. I'm surprised that isn't real clear.
Your view that salvation can be lost is an insult to the work of Christ on the cross. He's not much of a Savior if those He saves can be lost by their own efforts, or lack of efforts in any sense.
And??
Not for salvation, nor for maintenance of salvation.
[QUTOE] He wrote, "Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if [conditional] you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain [a possibility]." 1 Corinthians 15:1-2.[/QUOTE]
Please do a bit of research on the single Greek word for "hold fast". It means to possess. Those who have believed POSSESS eternal life.
Your negative reaction to this possibility demonstrates a very serious misunderstanding of grace.
That's just your own opinion of what the Bible teaches. It teaches that once a child of God through faith in Christ, ALWAYS a child of God.
Your view CANNOT explain how a child of God who is born again, gets to be unborn or an unchild.
The proof comes from your own words, which demonstrate a gross misunderstanding of what grace is and means.
We are saved by grace (not of ourselves) and we are kept by that SAME GRACE (not of ourselves).
Your theology is we are saved by grace and faith, but we can lose our salvation by certain behaviors. Which is "of ourselves".
Please explain how my view of your theology is not the proper conclusion to all you've posted.
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Been done many times...got the t-shirt.
But just in case you missed them
Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that NOT of yourselves, it is the gift of God; NOT as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Can't get much simpler than that...we are saved by grace through faith and not of ANYTHING we can do. There is no amount of works that we can do to earn salvation...if there were...then we would become boastful... "I said 10 Praise Jesus' , I am saved...you haven't na-na-na-na-na-na"
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit
Again nice and simple. I like how we even have "deeds which we have done in righteousness"...kinda nails it doesn't it...even the deeds we have done after salvation are not why we are saved...but it is entirely because of God's mercy.
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace
Again simple...if it is based on works...the grace is no longer grace and it is in vain.
We can get a little more complex too.
Galatians 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Jesus Christ, eve we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly
Philippians 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.
I do hope those are simple enough for you. In refutation of these I would recommend that instead of trying to post more verses that you claim support your position, you attempt to explain how these verses do not say what they say or that they do not mean what they say.
Thank you
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Jesus First
Lover of Jesus Christ
Brother Jerry,
Thanks for the offer. I'll gladly accept. I hope to get back with you with 24 hrs. I have some tasks to do.
Keep the faith.
In Christ!
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Jesus First
Lover of Jesus Christ
Brother Jerry,
I encourage you brother to read and study the Bible in neutral at the feet of Jesus. Pretend you were reading it for the first time. Don't allow held theology to determine the meaning of a passage. This includes any theology to include Arminianism, Reformed Theology, Free Grace Theology, etc. If a particular theology today is truth, then an independent study of Scripture should confirm it. We trust Christ to save our souls, we can also trust Him in our interpretation of Scripture.
A most basic –yet lacking principle today of Biblical interpretation is that theology is drawn out (exegesis) and not read into Scripture.
The problem passages are usually because of bad theology. Our biases can prevent an objective interpretation.
You provided Ephesians 2:8-9 as a proof text. Interestingly, this passage was one of my last hold outs before yielding to the doctrine of conditional security.
We should focus more on what a text says than what it does not say. Because this passage is often taught incorrectly, it's important to understand that this passage doesn't say our salvation will not have works. But it explicitly states that works do not save.
Secondly, the word saved is in the Greek perfect tense (Ephesians 2:8). (As a side note, I recommend a book called Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics). An understanding of this tense is theologically significant. Did you know that the perfect tense here for the verb "saved" makes salvation an ongoing activity and not a completed action? This knowledge also helps dispel the wrong teaching commonly taught for this verse that salvation is a completed action. BTW, there are many passages that indicate that salvation is not presented as a completed action in Scripture.
In summary, Paul is writing –for by grace you [have been] saved from the past at salvation to the present by faith. Also, the words "have been" are not in the manuscripts but are necessary in our language to help us understand what the underlying Greek perfect tense says.
Verse 10 indicates that "we are created in Christ Jesus for good works". This complements the prior verses.
Summary: Ephesians 2:8-9 doesn't state that our salvation won't have works. More importantly, it clearly states that our works DON'T save us. Also, it presents salvation as an ongoing action and not a completed action. Further, it doesn't teach salvation comes by a one time act of faith.
Salvation is presented as an ongoing gift "by faith". The perfect tense in itself does not comment on the future. A verse may comment on the future, but not based on the perfect tense itself. It only sees action from the past (where an objective was reached that has remained true up to the present time.
The second passage you provided is Titus 3:5: "he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,"
Because the unsaved are incapable of performing "works" that are "in righteousness", my conclusion is that these works were performed after they entered the family of God. So Paul seems to be saying that "he saved us" independent of the works we have performed to date which contribute absolutely nothing to our salvation –which is by grace. This would be consistent with many passages such as Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3, 4, etc.
You next provided Romans 11:6: "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace." The verse above contextually belongs within the surrounded context. The context is regarding the nation of Israel.
"yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." Galatians 2:16
This verse declares that we are not saved by keeping the Mosaic law; the law was/is powerless to save. We can echo what Paul wrote "... so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law..."
"21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose." Galatians 2:21
This verse summarizes how we are saved by grace (unmerited favor) and not by works of the law. Salvation is possible because Jesus took our place and paid the penalty we owed (death) and offers salvation in gift form to those who believe.
"and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith" Phillipians 3:9
This verse is part of a larger narrative of the Apostle Paul. Once again he reminds his readers that law keeping is powerless to save. Our righteousness to salvation depends NOT on ourselves (the law in context) but on faith in Jesus Christ; who saves those who cannot save themselves.
In Christ!
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JesusFirst
Thank you very much for you reply. And I completely understand and agree with your approach as far as putting preconceptions aside. I do this pretty much every time I open the Bible to read, that comes right after prayer to God for His revelations of what I am about to read.
And it is through this approach that you build a mechanism is studying the Bible. You take every verse as literal until is impossible to do so. You notice the simple verses that express the point easily and without confusion. It is those simple verses that help get a deeper understanding of those not as simple verses. So when you run across verses that express in the simplest terms as possible that we are saved, we are sealed, we have been adopted, etc, etc. It becomes a simple understanding that salvation happens once and God secures us. You soon realize that there are many verses that stand alone in describing salvation as something we have and that God keeps us.
<added>Oh and just so you know. Perfect Tense is not only a matter of something that happened in the past and is still going on...that is actually only
http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/presentperfect.html
Thank you very much for you reply. And I completely understand and agree with your approach as far as putting preconceptions aside. I do this pretty much every time I open the Bible to read, that comes right after prayer to God for His revelations of what I am about to read.
And it is through this approach that you build a mechanism is studying the Bible. You take every verse as literal until is impossible to do so. You notice the simple verses that express the point easily and without confusion. It is those simple verses that help get a deeper understanding of those not as simple verses. So when you run across verses that express in the simplest terms as possible that we are saved, we are sealed, we have been adopted, etc, etc. It becomes a simple understanding that salvation happens once and God secures us. You soon realize that there are many verses that stand alone in describing salvation as something we have and that God keeps us.
<added>Oh and just so you know. Perfect Tense is not only a matter of something that happened in the past and is still going on...that is actually only
http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/presentperfect.html
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Jesus First
Lover of Jesus Christ
Brother Jerry,
In Biblical interpretation we don't have liberty to assume. We examine grammar, context, and compare Scriptures, etc.
I agree with you that "we are saved, we are sealed, we have been adopted, etc, etc". But your "we" describes us two who are currently in the race. We have the Holy Spirit in our hearts that confirms our ongoing salvation.
How about those who have left the faith (fell away) and exchanged Christ for their sinful pleasures? And which of the verses that you provided grammatically make salvation a permanent, unchangeable fact regardless of falling away from Christ (without assumptions)?
For Ephesians 2:8, the perfect tense of the word "saved" is silent about the future. Further, their present salvation is because of their ongoing faith ("have been saved through faith").
Thanks for providing the link concerning the English perfect tense. Please consider that the Koine Greek tenses may be similar but not exact. The link you provided has a graphic which displays an accurate rendering of the timeline of this tense.
Finally, you stated "You soon realize that there are many verses that stand alone in describing salvation as something we have and that God keeps us." [end of your quote].
Again, you and I have salvation right now because we are in the race. So I agree with "salvation as something we have"-[your quote]. Yes, God keeps (us two) secure as long as we are in the vine (John 15:1-11. But we don't want to confuse God's faithfulness to man's faithlessness.
In Hebrews 3, the authors warns of the possibility of becoming unbelievers:
"but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope." Hebrews 3:6 (see surrounding context).
"Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end." Hebrews 3:13-14 (see surrounding context).
In Christ!
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JesusFirst
Again thank you for your civil and courteous reply.
And I agree that we do not assume...you were the one to mention assume in this latest post. Otherwise the word assume has not left my lips (well more accurately my fingertips
)
As to the idea of those that have left the faith. Given the clear words of the Bible I do not believe that is possible for those that are truly saved.
Jesus words appear twice in John chapter 4 and 6
John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.
John 6:35 I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
Those two verses repeat the message that if we drink of that water we will never thirst. To claim apostasy would be to indicate that the supposed believer got thirsty and sought to quench that thirst elsewhere. But Jesus said the person who believes will never get thirsty. A believer will never want to drink again. Notice Jesus did not say that they have to keep drinking, He said that we will never experience thirst. Salvation is satisfaction.
1 Peter 1:5 who by God's power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
We see that God protects us.
2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard your against the evil one.
So God will guard us against the evil one.
Psalm 121:7 The Lord will keep you from all evil; He will keep your soul
Who is it that keeps our soul? Is it you and I? No it is God.
There are many more verses that speak of security of our soul in God's hands. That if we have truly believed then we are secure in the Lords hands. And what does John 10:29 say about us who are in the Father's hands? "and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand"
As far as Hebrews 3...you seem to be forgetting a key element there...and right after you mentioned in in your response to me...what is the context of Hebrews...who is it being written too? It is being written to Jews. Falling away from the Living God reference in Hebrews 3 as well as the references in Hebrews 6 are talking about how the Jews were the followers of God...but they too must follow Jesus to be in the House of God again. Otherwise they are following the path of unbelief having once been in the House of God, partakers of the Holy Spirit...and then fell away as the nation of Israel turned it's back on Christ.
Again thank you for your civil and courteous reply.
And I agree that we do not assume...you were the one to mention assume in this latest post. Otherwise the word assume has not left my lips (well more accurately my fingertips
)As to the idea of those that have left the faith. Given the clear words of the Bible I do not believe that is possible for those that are truly saved.
Jesus words appear twice in John chapter 4 and 6
John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.
John 6:35 I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
Those two verses repeat the message that if we drink of that water we will never thirst. To claim apostasy would be to indicate that the supposed believer got thirsty and sought to quench that thirst elsewhere. But Jesus said the person who believes will never get thirsty. A believer will never want to drink again. Notice Jesus did not say that they have to keep drinking, He said that we will never experience thirst. Salvation is satisfaction.
1 Peter 1:5 who by God's power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
We see that God protects us.
2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard your against the evil one.
So God will guard us against the evil one.
Psalm 121:7 The Lord will keep you from all evil; He will keep your soul
Who is it that keeps our soul? Is it you and I? No it is God.
There are many more verses that speak of security of our soul in God's hands. That if we have truly believed then we are secure in the Lords hands. And what does John 10:29 say about us who are in the Father's hands? "and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand"
As far as Hebrews 3...you seem to be forgetting a key element there...and right after you mentioned in in your response to me...what is the context of Hebrews...who is it being written too? It is being written to Jews. Falling away from the Living God reference in Hebrews 3 as well as the references in Hebrews 6 are talking about how the Jews were the followers of God...but they too must follow Jesus to be in the House of God again. Otherwise they are following the path of unbelief having once been in the House of God, partakers of the Holy Spirit...and then fell away as the nation of Israel turned it's back on Christ.
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Jesus First
Lover of Jesus Christ
JesusFirst
Again thank you for your civil and courteous reply.
And I agree that we do not assume...you were the one to mention assume in this latest post. Otherwise the word assume has not left my lips (well more accurately my fingertips
As to the idea of those that have left the faith. Given the clear words of the Bible I do not believe that is possible for those that are truly saved.
Jesus words appear twice in John chapter 4 and 6
John 4:14 but whoever drinks of the water that I give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.
John 6:35 I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
Those two verses repeat the message that if we drink of that water we will never thirst. To claim apostasy would be to indicate that the supposed believer got thirsty and sought to quench that thirst elsewhere. But Jesus said the person who believes will never get thirsty. A believer will never want to drink again. Notice Jesus did not say that they have to keep drinking, He said that we will never experience thirst. Salvation is satisfaction.
1 Peter 1:5 who by God's power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
We see that God protects us.
2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard your against the evil one.
So God will guard us against the evil one.
Psalm 121:7 The Lord will keep you from all evil; He will keep your soul
Who is it that keeps our soul? Is it you and I? No it is God.
There are many more verses that speak of security of our soul in God's hands. That if we have truly believed then we are secure in the Lords hands. And what does John 10:29 say about us who are in the Father's hands? "and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand"
As far as Hebrews 3...you seem to be forgetting a key element there...and right after you mentioned in in your response to me...what is the context of Hebrews...who is it being written too? It is being written to Jews. Falling away from the Living God reference in Hebrews 3 as well as the references in Hebrews 6 are talking about how the Jews were the followers of God...but they too must follow Jesus to be in the House of God again. Otherwise they are following the path of unbelief having once been in the House of God, partakers of the Holy Spirit...and then fell away as the nation of Israel turned it's back on Christ.
Thanks, brother Jerry for your reply . I hope to get back with you within the next 48 hours.
In Christ!
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Let's examine some of your allegations and conclusions.
Question #2. What does Scripture teach about children of God who persist in sin?
Question #3. What does Scripture teach about the GIFT of eternal life?
Question #1. Why would a genuine child of God rebel against his or her father?
Question #2. What does Scripture teach about children of God who persist in sin?
Question #3. What does Scripture teach about the GIFT of eternal life?
Paul is teaching us in Romans 8 that absolutely nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. While it may apply to those who are persecuted, it also applies to those who are afflicted or oppressed by Satan. Thus a universal principle is presented in this chapter. We can look at the afflictions of Job and be reminded that here is an object lesson for all of us.
The hope and assurance of eternal life is never contingent upon how well we fight the good fight of faith. Denying the flesh is necessary to grow in grace, but no child of God "forfeits" salvation and eternal life. It is God's gift to the one who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Those who habitially live according to the flesh may not even be saved to begin with. But if a Christian persists in sinning, there is such a thing as "the sin unto death". He or she may die prematurely, just as Ananias and Sapphira.
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The real issue with these threads attacking the eternal security of the believer is that people who deny this doctrine do not really understand (1) the infinite grace of God, (2) the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, (3) the finished work of Christ for our redemption, (4) the gift of eternal life, and (5) the real meaning of salvation. They are all caught up in the web of "religions" which teach that men must to something to save themselves, and keep themselves saved.
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FreeGrace2
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Just all empty claims or opinions. Nothing provided to back up any of them.
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Jesus First
Lover of Jesus Christ
Brother Jerry,
Thanks again for your reply. You offer a Calvinistic argument and I respectfully offer a different interpretation.
I consider you and most Calvinist's believers. Even though I'm a zero point Calvinist, in my experience they tend to follow better hermeneutics, their doctrine of salvation is closer than many to the early church, they believe in the necessity to persevere, and they believe in real repentance of sin to be saved, etc.
Having said all this, I don't claim to have all my theology correct. I'm a work in progress myself .
Our disagreement appears to be narrowed down closer. The question before us (correct me if I'm wrong) –can a genuine believe today fall from the faith in the future, or does God preserve every believer to where they cannot under any circumstance commit apostasy? I believe that apostasy is possible and the answer to this question is found in Scripture. God's Word correctly understood is never in error.
Here is the first passage you provided (the prior verse was added for context):
"13 Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” John 4:13-14.
BTY, I LOVE the story of the woman at the well! For verse 13 we can agree on earthly water.
Verse 14 has two sentences. The verb "drink” must be examined within the first sentence. This is because "will never be thirsty again" is conditional on this verb.
In Koine Greek, a verb's tense is imbedded inside verbs. The tense of the word "drinks" is in the aorist tense (v. 14). The aorist is the most abused tense. Why? Because the verbal action (one-time action, ongoing action, etc.) is undefined before competing factors are played out. We are speaking of context, a words meaning, grammar, and anything else that can affect the verbal action. Because the aorist tense is defined externally, it has been called "plastic".
Again, because the aorist tens is undefined outside of context, grammar, etc., many have taken liberty to define it based on what their theology allows. The aorist tense can be a one-time action, or an ongoing action. All the action of this verb is pressed into one frame.
One way to help grasp the verbal action is to compare different English translations. Most translations translate this Greek verb to "drinks" (an English present tense verb). Please consider the following translations:
“but whoever drinks of the water” (ESV)
“but whoever drinks of the water” (NASV)
“but whoever drinks of the water” (NJKV)
“but whoever drinks the water” (NIV)
Another consideration is the near and far context. Are there clues in the near context about this activity? The far context can be the book of John to include the New Testament as a whole, etc.
My understanding of this passage is that “drinks” describes an ongoing activity. Those who habitually drink spiritual water "will never be thirsty again". In the near context, Jesus first emphasized that physical water must be drank progressively because of thirst (v. 13). That is, physical water never fully satisfies a person’s thirst (v 13). “But” (in contrast to physical water where thirst is never satisfied) “whoever drinks” (progressive activity) of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again.” (v. 14a). Those who drink from the well of Christ don't have the problem of thirst —their “thirst” for eternal life is satisfied! “The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life” (v. 14b).
The requirement to persevere in the faith is a frequent condition for eternal life in the NT, including the book of John. The purpose statement for the book of John reaffirms this condition. “But these are written so that you may believe [aorist tense] that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing [present tense participle; ongoing action here] you may have life in his name” John 20:31.
As a non-Calvinist, I commend my Calvinist brothers who agree that perseverance is required. Our disagreement then, it not over the necessity to persevere. But, can a Christian today fail to persevere to the end? I also agree that some who were in our “pews” were never saved —their departure was not because they lost their salvation; they were never saved on day one. But not all who left the faith were unbelievers. Their lies our disagreement.
You wrote: “Those two verses repeat the message that if we drink of that water we will never thirst” [end of your quote]. We agree on this as drink (not drank) is ongoing.
You wrote: “To claim apostasy would be to indicate that the supposed believer got thirsty and sought to quench that thirst elsewhere.” [end of your quote]. A “believer” cannot commit apostasy because he/she believes. Apostasy is when someone who was in the faith, leaves the faith and no longer believes.
You wrote, “But Jesus said the person who believes will never get thirsty” [end of your quote]. Yes. We agree as long as the word “believes” is taken literal where the person still believes.
You wrote, “A believer will never want to drink again. Notice Jesus did not say that they have to keep drinking, He said that we will never experience thirst. Salvation is satisfaction.” [end of your quote]. I respectfully disagree. A believer will continue to drink out of the well of Jesus Christ for as long as he/she believes. A true believer’s actions reflect their underlying faith in Christ. Lord willing, we will go to church on Sunday because we continue to believe in Jesus Christ. The verse says “drinks” (a verb that denotes action) because true believers continue in the faith. Grammatically, and contextually, the action of “drinks” is not a one time, completed action event.
You wrote, “As to the idea of those that have left the faith. Given the clear words of the Bible I do not believe that is possible for those that are truly saved.” [end of your quote]. Question —what does this passage say? Does it address your belief that a true believer today cannot leave the faith? We have liberty to extract what a passage says, plus nothing, minus nothing. So again, what does the verse say? “But whoever [open ended] drinks [a present tense verb] of the water that I will give him [the one who “drinks”] will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him [the one who “drinks”] will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” (V. 14). I'm not finding your sincere arguments addressed in this passage. It does not say that all who drink will continue to drink all the days of their life (your view), or that those who stop drinking out of the well of Christ are no longer saved (my view). However, the weight of the verse surely favors perseverance (“drinks”) for eternal life.
This passage (John 4:13-14) was purposely covered in more detail that the rest to follow because of the aorist tense of the word “drinks”. This tense is subject to abuse when independent of rules of Koine Greek grammar. Secondly, we don't decide our soteriology based on one verse. Thankfully, we have a hundred or more verses that indicate what response God require from sinners to enter the Kingdom of God.
There is a passage in the Gospel of John (involving water) that offers clarification. Please consider John 7:37-38:
“On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts [spiritually; Greek present tense verb], let him come [Greek present tense; ongoing action here] to me and drink [Greek present tense verb; ongoing action here]. 38 Whoever believes [present tense participle; ongoing action here] in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow [future tense] rivers of living [present tense participle; ongoing] water.’ ”
The passage above includes participles and present tense verbs with more definition —unlike the aorist tense “drink” found in John 4:14. Because clearer verses should define more obscure ones, and the Bible does not contradict itself, the verbal action in light of the evidence presented is an ongoing activity (“drinks”) for John 4:14.
I do intend to address the other passages you provided as time allows. It may be one to three days before I get back to you.
In Christ!
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JesusFirst
Thank you for taking the time to respond and to do so in such detail.
However, Aorist is not ..ongoing as you would define...but undefined. it is past tense or undetermined/undefined time. Not that that really changes anything in your points...just a semantical correction.
But to consider John 4:14 referring to an ongoing drinking has problems. Because as you said Aorist is built by the contexts of the words/phrases surrounding it. And some of that comes from verse 13. ..."Everyone who drinks this water will thirst again" This is speaking of the water from the well. the same aorist verb is utilized here as in Verse 14. It is widely understood that if a person puts their face in a drinking fountain and keeps sucking water...they won't get thirsty again. So we undertand verse 13 to indicate that if you take a drink and stop...just like taking a sip of water from the fountain. You will get thirsty again.
So it does not make sense that Jesus shifted meanings in the middle of a thought to suddenly mean that you have to keep drinking of the water that he provides.
You also have to look at the second half of verse 14 because this explains why you only have to drink once and you will never be thirsty again....it is because the water that Christ provides will become a well of water springing up to eternal life. So you won't get thirsty again after taking a drink because you will have a well of that water inside you that quenches that thirst.
You had written: "Apostasy is when someone who was in the faith, leaves the faith and no longer believes" On the points of belief v faith I believe we tend to agree. I did do a common error by utilizing the phrase "when a believer" to indicate a loss of faith. Because we have to rememeber in order to have faith you have to believe, but in order to believe you do not have to have faith.
You had written: "The verse says “drinks” (a verb that denotes action) because true believers continue in the faith. Grammatically, and contextually, the action of “drinks” is not a one time, completed action event."
We agree that 'drinks' is a verb... It is the tense of the verb that we disagree on. As pointed out however, the same verb form (aorist) was utilized in the preceeding verse and we both accept that Jesus was referring to someone taking a single drink and then getting thirsty again. It is illogical and erroneous to take the same verb phrasing and apply a different tense to it from the same speaker in the same conversation, in the same sentence even.
Your notes on John 7:37-38. Again the verb for drink is the same as used in the previous verses. it is important to notice Jesus said "to come", not to come and stay, so it is a one time action that is being described. We also know this because Christ also told the followers to go.
So here is what we know. You take a drink of the water that Christ offers...you no longer have to drink of the water that Christ is offering...you just have to drink once. Because after you drink of that water, you will have a spring of water inside you. Now please note that not once do we see an indication that we are drinking from that water, you are making an implication/assumption that the well that springs up is what we are drinking from in order to never thirst. My position is without assumptions, and I take the verse to mean exactly what it means...we will not thirst ever again.
I look forward to continued discussions and I hope you are having/ or had a great weekend.
Thank you for taking the time to respond and to do so in such detail.
However, Aorist is not ..ongoing as you would define...but undefined. it is past tense or undetermined/undefined time. Not that that really changes anything in your points...just a semantical correction.
But to consider John 4:14 referring to an ongoing drinking has problems. Because as you said Aorist is built by the contexts of the words/phrases surrounding it. And some of that comes from verse 13. ..."Everyone who drinks this water will thirst again" This is speaking of the water from the well. the same aorist verb is utilized here as in Verse 14. It is widely understood that if a person puts their face in a drinking fountain and keeps sucking water...they won't get thirsty again. So we undertand verse 13 to indicate that if you take a drink and stop...just like taking a sip of water from the fountain. You will get thirsty again.
So it does not make sense that Jesus shifted meanings in the middle of a thought to suddenly mean that you have to keep drinking of the water that he provides.
You also have to look at the second half of verse 14 because this explains why you only have to drink once and you will never be thirsty again....it is because the water that Christ provides will become a well of water springing up to eternal life. So you won't get thirsty again after taking a drink because you will have a well of that water inside you that quenches that thirst.
You had written: "Apostasy is when someone who was in the faith, leaves the faith and no longer believes" On the points of belief v faith I believe we tend to agree. I did do a common error by utilizing the phrase "when a believer" to indicate a loss of faith. Because we have to rememeber in order to have faith you have to believe, but in order to believe you do not have to have faith.
You had written: "The verse says “drinks” (a verb that denotes action) because true believers continue in the faith. Grammatically, and contextually, the action of “drinks” is not a one time, completed action event."
We agree that 'drinks' is a verb... It is the tense of the verb that we disagree on. As pointed out however, the same verb form (aorist) was utilized in the preceeding verse and we both accept that Jesus was referring to someone taking a single drink and then getting thirsty again. It is illogical and erroneous to take the same verb phrasing and apply a different tense to it from the same speaker in the same conversation, in the same sentence even.
Your notes on John 7:37-38. Again the verb for drink is the same as used in the previous verses. it is important to notice Jesus said "to come", not to come and stay, so it is a one time action that is being described. We also know this because Christ also told the followers to go.
So here is what we know. You take a drink of the water that Christ offers...you no longer have to drink of the water that Christ is offering...you just have to drink once. Because after you drink of that water, you will have a spring of water inside you. Now please note that not once do we see an indication that we are drinking from that water, you are making an implication/assumption that the well that springs up is what we are drinking from in order to never thirst. My position is without assumptions, and I take the verse to mean exactly what it means...we will not thirst ever again.
I look forward to continued discussions and I hope you are having/ or had a great weekend.
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