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[True Science]

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[True Science]

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[True Science]

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[sdowney717]

Paul said these people were “in liberty,” the liberty of Christ, they were “made free.” If these people were never saved to begin with, if they were never justified by faith in Yehoshua to begin with, they would have never been “in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free.” But they were! Or else Paul would not have told them to not be “entangled AGAIN with the yoke of bondage.” They were once entangled with the yoke of bondage, but they were no longer, though they were on the verge of it happening to them AGAIN. Someone who is not any longer tangled in the yoke of bondage but is in the liberty by which one is made free by Christ has a saving faith. If they didn’t they would still be entangled in the yoke of bondage and would not be free. But Paul didn’t say, “Therefore get in the liberty wherewith Christ can make you free, because you are still entangled with the yoke of bondage!” He said the opposite, as we read in the text! The Galatians had a saving faith that delivered them from the yoke of bondage into the glorious liberty of Yehoshua the Anointed One and Paul was telling them to “stand fast” in it. You can’t “stand fast” in something you were never in, you have to get in it first. Paul wasn’t telling them to get in it. He was telling them to “stand fast” in it! Now for those who believe in Eternal Security according to Once Saved, Always Saved, if this doctrine (which turns the grace of our God into a gospel if sin, making Christ the minister of sin) is true Paul would not tell them to stand fast in something that they were never in in the first place. And he would not tell them to stand fast in it either if they were eternally secure without any risk of throwing away their salvation. He would say, “You are fastened and secure in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and you will not and cannot be entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” But he didn’t say that. And for those who believe in Faith Alone, why would anyone have to do anything like stand fast if it was “not of works” at all whatever? It’s obvious you people are mistaken. Faith Alone is bogus.

Paul continues:

“[5:2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. [5:3] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [5:4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”—Ibid.

The key to understanding is right here
[5:4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”—Ibid.[/QUOTE]

Since no one is justified by the Law, then there will be condemnation for those that try to do that APART from faith in Jesus Christ.
They are seeking their own righteousness by performing works of the Law and not seeking after Christ and His righteousness.
Paul here is emphasizing that point, Paul is not saying those justified by faith can go back to being justified by works, that is a curse, people who solely try to justify themselves by works are under a curse. They fail and they die and go to hell fire. A man can be justified by faith and want to also do the works of the LAW but it just wont make a hill of beans. Anyone who is justified by faith can not add to the work of Christ by himself doing works of the LAW as add ons like brownie points with God for additional justification by God. No one earns justification, it is a gift of faith from God that you believe in His Son. You can not add to the work of God, nor can you take away from it.

 

[sdowney717]

Rejecting Christ as your justification and relying on the Law to justify yourself to God is not going to save you.
In a church setting will be saved and unsaved persons. Obviously unsaved persons who feel like they need to be holified will try to do works of the Law due to their sinful conscience bearing witness against them. Paul could not possibly know who is who, the unsaved or the saved, who knows who might be reading these letters Paul writes then and now. All these things were written down for explanation, our learning and edification. And Paul also knew people would be coming after he is gone to lead people astray from the grace gospel of Christ to a false gospel of works both back then and today until the Lord comes.

 

[sdowney717]

Romans 3 New King James Version (NKJV)
God’s Judgment Defended
What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written:

“That You may be justified in Your words,
And may overcome when You are judged.”

5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? IsGod unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?

7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? 8 And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

All Have Sinned
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law isthe knowledge of sin.

God’s Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Boasting Excluded
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

 

[True Science]

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[FreeGrace2]

There is no inherited sinful nature from birth that forces one to be a sinner. No one has to sin. No one. And anyone can stop sinning.

The only real issue is how long one will "not sin". The answer is that everyone IS a sinner. The Bible clearly says so.

Rom 3:9 - What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin
Rom 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Now, did Paul make any exceptions, such as infants or the mentally impaired? No, he did not. So let's not assume anything here.

In addition, consider:
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Please note that John used the subjunctive mood "IF we say". So,those who make such a claim have deceived themselves and the truth is NOT in them. Very clear.

Every sin is avoidable:

But not permanently avoidable. See above for what both Paul and John wrote about sin.

"No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."--1Cor. 10:13 ESV

God made man upright, but THEY (not just Adam) of their own free will have sought out many schemes, and their physical constitution has nothing to do with it because God made them good:

"See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes."--Ecclesiastes 7:29 ESV

He ONLY found that God made man correctly but they of their own free will have chosen rebellion. He didn't find anything else like an inherited sinful nature from birth that makes people sin.

The last paragraph is irrelevant. When Adam sinned, he "infected" the rest of humanity, according to the Bible.
Rom 5:12 - Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

So, death spread to HOW MANY MEN? ALL men. Not some men. Not most men. Not a few men. But ALL men.

Therefore since the mainstream doctrine of Original Sin is false

Your "therefore" conclusion is baseless since the verses I've just quoted refutes your claim.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I this paper won't settle it that Galatians does teach OSAS, nothing probably will.

Now back to Inherited Moral Inability. How is that true when God says every sin is unavoidable and that he made man upright, and that sin is man's own doing from his own choices, and that this is the only thing found in man, not any sinful nature that forces him to sin? And thus what need is there for Faith Alone and OSAS?

Your question here is again baseless, since Paul clearly noted the struggle and conflict between his 2 natures; the sinful one and his new regenerated one in Rom 7:14-25.

Knowing what the Scriptures says goes a long way to having a proper and correct theological understanding.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What a wicked and stupid god it is who demands perfect obedience from his creatures while knowing full well it is impossible and then threatening them with torture in hell for ages and ages unless they simply trust in someone who did it for them, which they should have see all along, even God has only made it clear since the Reformation, and before that he was deceiving everyone into thinking that they had to measure up to be saved or be damned as if it was possible.

In spite of a terribly long and long winded sentence, the whole point is that because man cannot fulfill the command for perfection, he NEEDS to accept Christ's work on his behalf. Which is the thrust of the gospel. Gal 3:15-29

 

[Jesus First]

Slow the roll there and lets keep things civil. If we cannot keep our tongue in check when speaking to each other, then what worse can we do to those who are not brothers and sisters in Christ. We should always remember that there are no limits on this forum so "Joe Unsaved" may be reading this as well.

Dear Brother Jerry,

Thanks for expressing concern over my posts. I did use some strong language with FreeGrace2. There is a reason behind it. It's not because I hate him or anyone. I have a past history with the theology he promotes in this forum. It took me years to recover. But thanks be to Jesus Christ; I'm nearly recovered

I have never met FreeGrace2. Because I formerly held to a theology called Free Grace Theology, my posts contain some righteous anger. I love FreeGrace2 and think he is probably saved. A lot of what he promotes I would have promoted five years ago. I understand where he comes from as I was there myself. I was saved back then and was seriously deceived.

But I must give credit and publicly thank Jesus Christ who opened my eyes to the truth. It happened as I sat at His feet, reading His Word in neutral over time, attempting to use good principles of Biblical interpretation. I experienced a major crisis. What I ate and drank at the feet of Jesus was different than the Free Grace doctrines I held. Could it be that the church my family and I attended, the Bible Institute I was part of, and all my friends from this church were wrong? I was so heavy invested in Free Grace Theology that it became a crisis in my life. I had to decide if I was going to follow the Bible based on established principles of grammar, context and the Holy Spirit’s conviction in my life.

But thanks be to Jesus Christ who gave me the strength to confront some elders and friends. They didn't agree because they interpret the Scripture under a Free Grace Theological grid. When the Bible is read and understood under the light of a theological system, the conclusions reached are conformed to the overlay.

After I left Free Grace Theology God began to reveal more and more error that I held that I was formerly unaware. One example was the doctrine of repentance as I was wrongly taught.

FG2 and other proponents of eternal security do believe in the repentance of sin. But we believe that there is just a one time turning from our sinful ways that is at the point of salvation. We believe that we will still commit sins as the Bible says all do. And we believe that we must ask for forgiveness of those sins.

Let me respectfully correct you. Free Grace Theology does not believe in turning from sin to be saved. They believe that someone who is unsaved is incapable of turning sin. They teach that one must have a one-time faith in Jesus to be saved. After one is saved (in their view), turning from sin is encouraged but not required to remain saved. They teach that true repentance for salvation is only a change of mind that does not involve turning from sin.

This doctrine is heresy. Jesus Christ commanded that people turn from sin and believe in Jesus to be saved. Peter preached, “19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out”Acts 3:19. Peter went on to say, “God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.” Acts 3:26

Because Free Grace Theology approaches the Scriptures under the lens of “faith alone”, they cannot accept repentance (turning from sin) in the salvation package. Turning from sin is a work in their eyes. The doctrine of “faith alone” is of doctrine of demons that keeps some people unsaved. They fail to comprehend that real faith comes with actions. These actions validate the faith. Paul spoke of the Gospel as obedience of the faith (Romans 1:5; 15:18).

And you are correct in that endurance is not required for salvation and eternal life. That is what the Bible indicates.

Sorry, you are incorrect, brother. The Bible does not present salvation as a one-time completed action, but as an ongoing, conditional reality. Both justification and redemption are past facts, present realities and a future hope (for those in the faith). These aspects of our salvation have already been discussed in this thread. We are saved by faith and kept saved by faith. Jesus Christ gives us the ability to believe and to remain in the faith. Our responsibility is to stay in the grace of God

Please allow the Bible and the Holy Spirit of God free reign to define truth.

In Christ!

 

[Jesus First]

What verse teaches that imputation is not a one-time act?

Dear Brother,

Please don't ignore the “pink elephant” in the room (respectfully). You argued for a one-time imputation from Romans 4:22-24. I corrected you by demonstrating that imputation was an ongoing reality for believers. Here is the verse: “but for ours also. It will be counted to us who BELIEVE in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord” (v. 24). The grammar indicates ongoing belief. So please don't sidestep the fact with your question. Does this verse not indicate imputation is a reality for those who “believe”?

I'll tell you what makes me very sick. Those who totally misrepresent what I post. As you have. I've NEVER promoted the idea of "go ahead and sin all you want". It is a LIE to make that claim about my view. So knock it off already.

Do you believe that repentance of sin (turning from it) is required to be saved? This is a yes or no answer. If yes, this means that one can have Jesus and their sin. Is this not a promotion of sin?

Do you believe that once someone becomes a child of God they can live in ongoing sin, glorying in it and still go to heaven? This is a yes or no answer.

Please give me straight answers. If my understanding of the views you express in this forum are incorrect, then I need to issue an apology.

All the warning passages are about what God will do to those believers (children of His) who are disobedient and unfaithful. They will not only lose blessings during their life on earth, they will lose eternal reward in heaven. Further, they are subject to God's heavy hand of discipline, as clearly indicated in Heb 12 and the word "scourging" in v.6. The Greek word refers to being skinned alive with a whip. Not fun.

So, those believers who are disobedient and unfaithful will not get away with anything. There will be great suffering for their behavior.

There you go. Here is more proof. You in essence are promoting the view that once someone is a child of God they can become the next “Hitler” and be welcomed to heaven and only “lose blessings during their life on earth, they will lose eternal reward in heaven.” [end of your quote]. You went on to express other actions where one can remain saved while chocking on sin.

This ungodly license in the name of grace that allows someone to optionally live “the wages of sin” and only lose “eternal rewards” and “blessings in this life” [end of your quote] gives me righteous anger.

I used to believe this garbage and many are in hell because they were taught that they could get away with it. My daughter has exchanged Jesus Christ for living in sin because people such as yourself (I used to be one of them) promote a license to sin (directly or indirectly) under grace.


In Christ!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Dear Brother Jerry,

Thanks for expressing concern over my posts. I did use some strong language with FreeGrace2. There is a reason behind it. It's not because I hate him or anyone. I have a past history with the theology he promotes in this forum. It took me years to recover. But thanks be to Jesus Christ; I'm nearly recovered

How sweet. One has recovered from the truth. Nope. No one recovers from the truth. They recover from error, hopefully.

I have never met FreeGrace2. Because I formerly held to a theology called Free Grace Theology, my posts contain some righteous anger.

Problem is, there is no such thing as a "righteous anger" towards truth, which free grace theology is.

I love FreeGrace2 and think he is probably saved.

There is no doubt about it. None at all.

A lot of what he promotes I would have promoted five years ago. I understand where he comes from as I was there myself. I was saved back then and was seriously deceived.

It's possible that there are those in every camp who have serious flaws. I've met Calvinists who are way out whack-o's, as well as Arminians. I have no doubt that there are some in the free grace group as well.

Keep in mind that there were seriously flawed believers even among the very early church: Acts 15:24 - “Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls" and Acts 30:20 - "and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

But I must give credit and publicly thank Jesus Christ who opened my eyes to the truth. It happened as I sat at His feet, reading His Word in neutral over time, attempting to use good principles of Biblical interpretation. I experienced a major crisis. What I ate and drank at the feet of Jesus was different than the Free Grace doctrines I held.

How do you know this crisis led you to truth, or simply created a huge distraction and derailment? According to Jesus, in the parable of the soils, we find that 2 of the soils were believers who never produced any fruit due to life's troubles and distractions.

Could it be that the church my family and I attended, the Bible Institute I was part of, and all my friends from this church were wrong? I was so heavy invested in Free Grace Theology that it became a crisis in my life.

being invested in truth never creates a crises. Being wrongly invested; well, sure.

I had to decide if I was going to follow the Bible based on established principles of grammar, context and the Holy Spirit’s conviction in my life.

Free grace theology follows all these better than the other systems.

But thanks be to Jesus Christ who gave me the strength to confront some elders and friends. They didn't agree because they interpret the Scripture under a Free Grace Theological grid.

The plain reading of Scripture leads to a free grace theology, unlike either Calvinism or Arminianism.

After I left Free Grace Theology God began to reveal more and more error that I held that I was formerly unaware. One example was the doctrine of repentance as I was wrongly taught.

How do you know that what you now believe is truth? On what basis? Your emotions? What?

Let me respectfully correct you. Free Grace Theology does not believe in turning from sin to be saved.

And correctly. To turn from sin is a human EFFORT. And is NOT part of grace, by which we are saved. Such thinking as you've now embraced is false doctrine to the core.

One very obvious reason is that the Bible gives NO guidance as to how much, how long, etc in what it means to "turn from sin". We will continue to sin as long as we are in our physical bodies. John made that perfectly clear in 1 John 1.

And one must be both clear and specific as to exactly what it means to "turn from sin" to be saved. But, what is most obvious is the fact that any effort to turn from sin is just human effort. If that's what it takes to be saved, then there will be a lot of boasting on the basis of what one did: "just look at all my efforts to turn from sin". Yeah, right. Paul rightly refuted any notion that one can "help" God out in getting saved.

If one is saved by turning from sin, then one has in effect, saved themselves, or at least helped God in saving them. All of which is nonsense.

They believe that someone who is unsaved is incapable of turning sin.

New flash! No one this side of eternity can quit sinning. John made that perfectly clear in 1 John. Oh yeah, I already said that.

They teach that one must have a one-time faith in Jesus to be saved.

The Bible teaches that.

After one is saved (in their view), turning from sin is encouraged but not required to remain saved. They teach that true repentance for salvation is only a change of mind that does not involve turning from sin.

This is correct Biblical teaching.

This doctrine is heresy.

You've not even come close to proving your claim. In fact, you've not even been able to prove your own views of salvation.

Jesus Christ commanded that people turn from sin and believe in Jesus to be saved. Peter preached, “19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out”Acts 3:19. Peter went on to say, “God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.” Acts 3:26

Once again, the Greek word, which is metanoia, doesn't mean turn from sin, but to change the mind. You've corrupted the meaning of the word to fit your "new" view of things.

Because Free Grace Theology approaches the Scriptures under the lens of “faith alone”, they cannot accept repentance (turning from sin) in the salvation package.

In fact, free grace theology teaches repentance correctly. Check out this link for a study of faith and repentance in the NT:
http://www.faithalone.org/magazine/y2014/Fiess-Repentance-and-Faith.html

Turning from sin is a work in their eyes.

As well as in the eyes of Paul. Turning from sin is commanded of believers, but not either for or to maintain salvation, since absolutely NO VERSE ever says that. We are commanded to turn from sin as a sign of obedience to our Lord and Savior. And those who don't turn from sin will face God's mightly hand of discipline and loss of eternal reward.

The doctrine of “faith alone” is of doctrine of demons that keeps some people unsaved.

Please read what Paul wrote:
Rom 4:4,5 - 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

Eph 2:8,9 - 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Paul EXPLICITLY excludes works from getting saved. Those who preach turning from sin as how to be saved have been blinded to the truth.

They fail to comprehend that real faith comes with actions. These actions validate the faith. Paul spoke of the Gospel as obedience of the faith (Romans 1:5; 15:18).
OK, let's examine what Paul wrote:
1:5 - through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,

Why would anyone think the "obdience of faith" refer to repentance? That's just a huge leap. Here's the Greek word for obedience:
hupakoē

1) obedience, compliance, submission
2) obedience rendered to anyone’s counsels, an obedienceshown in observing the requirements of Christianity

I don't see anything here remotely related to turning from sin. Rather, it's about being faithful in observing the requirements of Christianity. This verse is NOT about how to get saved, much less about turning from sin.

15:18 - For I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me, resulting in the obedience of the Gentiles by word and deed,

Again, there is nothing here about turning from sin for salvation.

The Bible does not present salvation as a one-time completed action, but as an ongoing, conditional reality.

Paul thoroughly refutes your claim in Acts 16:31 by using the aorist tense for "believe", and in Rom 10:10 by using the aorist again.

Both justification and redemption are past facts, present realities and a future hope (for those in the faith). These aspects of our salvation have already been discussed in this thread. We are saved by faith and kept saved by faith.

Yes. Exactly what free grace theology teaches.

Jesus Christ gives us the ability to believe and to remain in the faith.

Uh, everyone has the ability to believe. The Bible clearly teaches that some refuse to believe, which has nothing to do with inability.

Our responsibility is to stay in the grace of God

Sure it is. But not to maintain our salvation. Our salvation is maintained by God Himself. Neither you nor I have any power to maintain our own salvation.

 

[brotherjerry]

True Science.

No, I believe that most people who profess Christ who do not live according to his requirements have never been saved to begin with. But there are also those that have truly been saved but have after defiled their garments and therefore have returned to being under God's wrath, which Scripture clearly teaches. John 15 says those who are "in him" can be cut off and thrown into the fire if they do not abide in him and bear fruit.

Then if they were saved and became defiled...how could they have been saved to begin with. If you were about to go over a cliff and someone pulled you back, you are safe, you have been saved. The Bible then also says that God protect us, keeps us from going over the cliff again...so how can someone who God pulled back from the cliff go over the cliff again. Would that mean that God does not protect us? Is not the keeper of our soul?

Your response in reference to Ephesians 2. Are you saying that the faith that is talked about is God's faithfulness and not our own faith? And when it is talking about not of works it is talking about Christ coming as the Messiah, was because of God's faithfulness and not because of any works that people did 2000 years ago?

Your talk on Romans 6. You said "you guys teach Christians are both free in Christ and at the same time still in bondage to sin". Please point to anyone who has said that. And you know this is not true even by your previous replies in that we would believe that person still in bondage to sin, was never saved to begin with. It is only when you try and mix conditional security with eternal security do you get the hybrid mentality that proponents of eternal security believe a Christian can live in bondage to sin. Romans 6 is all about how we as Christians are dead to sin. His whole opening is filled with rhetorical questions for the Christian, "Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?", "How shall we who died to sin still live in it?" Followed by a knowledge check question "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?" Paul was addressing specifically people who professed to be Christians but were living a sinful life...they were still obedient to sin, they have not died to sin and become alive in Christ. When you moved into Romans 7 Paul is not talking about himself directly, he is talking to Jews that have become followers of Christ. "for ia m speaking to those who know the law". And he is putting himself into the category of "we" because he was once a Jew (still is by birth...but referring spiritually here). "for while WE were in the flish, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now WE have been released from the Law, having died to that which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter"

As to the sins that cause a loss of salvation. Jesus says that if you even look at woman lustfully you have committed adultery. So by your thinking if you even think of adultery you have lost your salvation, if this is extended to the others, the recovering alcoholic who may be thinking about taking a drink and how great it would make them feel is guilty of drinking and being a drunkard has lost their salvation. Hate to break it to Jesus First for his comment about making him sick...well that is a reviler by definition....sorry Jesus First...you lost your salvation. Also you stated someone who lost their salvation would be there and "not be gone or grieved and ready to leave"...This confuses me because when we get saved is when we receive the Holy Spirit...it would seem that if we lose our salvation we lose the Holy Spirit as well. You have any verses to support the idea that a lost person keeps the Spirit?

You also claim that they have to go through the process of repentance all over again. Which again goes back to something I was asking about...If salvation is described as being dead to sin and alive to life, how do die to life and become alive to death? how can the new creature in Christ be done away with and we become the old creature we were, that was done away with? If we can have but one physical death, how many spiritual births can we have, seems to me Christ used that analogy specifically to signify that it happens only one? So how can that which was born again, become unborn?

Your judgment day comment about many coming to Christ saying "Lord, Lord"...I agree...there will be many. But I find it funny you seem to be leaving out why they think they should be allowed into Heaven...because they have done all these great works in Christs name...cast out demons, healed people, etc.

But notice Christ did not say all who come to him on judgment day, but many. Some people Christ did know, but later they left him

This was a continuation of your previous comment about judgement. Your comment about "but later they left him" that is not in that verse at all, nothing like that. And those that Christ knew, He told you who those were in verse 21 "but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." There are many people that will profess to know Christ, they will claim to be saved, they will perform many great works in Christ's name. But they never had faith in Christ. They performed their works for brownie point to earn their way into salvation. Nothing in those verses indicates somoene was known to Jesus, and then fell away. Christ says "I NEVER knew you" He does not say "I once knew you"

There is no inherited sinful nature from birth that forces one to be a sinner. No one has to sin. No one. And anyone can stop sinning.

Psalm 51:5 "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me"
Ecclesiastes 7:20 "Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who nevers sins"
Romans 5:12 "Therefor, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned"
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God"
1 John 1:10 "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us"

Original sin covered. Some other topic maybe since this is about salvation. Would be more than happy to discuss.

 

[Open Heart]

His version of repentance is a "change of mind" that does not involve turning from sin to be saved.

This is not the definition of repentance. Nice try.

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[brotherjerry]

Jesus First

Thank you for your response. But please let me address a comment you made. You claimed your post contained some "righteous anger"...Now I believe completely that anger, love, happiness, etc, the emotions were created by God and that we can, do, and should feel them. But James 1:20 tells us that the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God." So when I hear people use the term "righteous anger" I cringe. God imputes righteousness, He is the owner of it, for that reason I believe that only God can have a "righteous anger" and I find that true in most cases...when a person claims to have "righteous anger" they often feel they know the mind of God becuase they are usually condemning something someone is doing, and they are casting judgement upon it. Which is what you are claiming...you got angry about a theology, and you felt justified to express that anger because you felt it was against God, which is where you get the righteousness from. Which strays from the second greatest commandment...love thy neighbor. You may not have intended it that way but I wanted to express what I see in that comment, right or wrong is hard to tell in printed word as we do not see the emotions behind it, which is why if James were writing today he would be speaking of holding the tongue and the fingers

Let me respectfully correct you. Free Grace Theology does not believe in turning from sin to be saved. They believe that someone who is unsaved is incapable of turning sin. They teach that one must have a one-time faith in Jesus to be saved. After one is saved (in their view), turning from sin is encouraged but not required to remain saved. They teach that true repentance for salvation is only a change of mind that does not involve turning from sin.

Have no idea about Free Grace Theology, and really don't care. Lables of things are often just divisions of men. So I may know what it is, but don't know it by that specific label. But the Bible teaches that salvation is achieved once. The Bible teaches that salvation is being born into a spiritual eternal life. The Bible teaches that once one is saved they become a new creature. The Bible teaches that when one is saved, they have crucified their flesh, they have died to sin. The Bible teaches that when one is saved they are resurrected with Christ (new life, new creature, etc). The Bible teaches that when one is saved they become a child of God (Can you ever not be your parents child? NO). The Bible teaches that when you are saved, God protects His own from the wicked one. The Bible teaches that those that are saved, are called the ones who have overcome.

As to turning from sin, or even as FG2 says, changing our mind. That too is also true. The Bible teaches us that we are no longer a slave to sin, meaning we are no longer obedient to sin. We have changed our mind, we have turned from sin. We have put Christ as our new master, for we can serve but one master. Our mind, our thoughts are very relevant to God too, Matthew 22:37 "And He said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God iwth all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.'" After we are saved we are purifying our mind, it is the battlefield as Satan will use our mind, Matthew 16:23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's." When we are saved our minds are turned from sin and no longer on the flesh but on the Spirit. Romans 8:5-6 "For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but hte mind set on the Spirit is life and peace"

This renewing of the mind is a process, it is what we use to conform ourselves to the Spirit for the rest of our lives. Romans 12:12 "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect." So by the renewing of our mind we then go out and prove what the Will of God is...that is the doing of good works that God desires.

We become this like mind and renew our minds by doing what Paul spoke of in 2 Corithians 10:5 "We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ."

Someone who is saved will hold every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. Someone who is saved has turned from sin and is no longer a slave to it. Not only in their mind but in their spirit, for they are new creatures and the old things are done away. Turning from sin is synonymous with changing their mind towards sin. Remember the original sin was not taking a bite from the fruit, but it was determining that it was OK to eat in the first place. The original sin was not an act of disobedience, it was a thought of disobedience...sound like Christ when He said that if you think lustful thoughts of a woman you have committed adultery? The original sin was replaceing what God had determined was good and evil, with what man decided was good and evil. And being saved means to change your mind on that, and accept what God has determined IS good and evil.

And Jesus First, with your "righteous anger" you miss what Romans 12:16 warns against "Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate wtih the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation."

Romans 15:5 is also dangerous to conditional security doctrines. You would claim that we have to persevere, but Romans 15:5 says that it is God who give s perseverance. So if you do not persevere then are you going to blame God?

2 Corinthians 11:3 also warns us that Satan will lure us from the simple devotion to Christ. When we put conditions on anything that God is to give us, we put things in our path to worry about, to concern ourselves with, to cast doubt into our lives. Was not Peter walking on water when he simply had faith that God would keep him walking? It was only when he got doubt about God's power to save him that he started to sink. Doubt is dangerous, and no matter what you may say on this forum, if you believe in conditional security with your salvation how can you be sure that you have done enough works to keep your salvation, how can you be sure that the works you have done are enough. As soon as there are conditions, there is a chance for doubt...God does not want doubt. Romans 14:23 "But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin."

John wrote to us, in 1 John 5:13, so that we may know that we have eternal life, not so we can assume or hope that we do.

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[Jesus First]

Jesus First,

The main problem is that they do not believe they can even stop sinning completely. They think they will always have to sin until the end because of their defective nature. So someone who came to Christ as a child molester and addicted to it may always for the rest of their life "struggle" with child molesting, even though they are "trying" to quit it, but they may every now and then "stumble" into child molesting, but Jesus still loves them and they will be saved as this has no bearing on the outcome of their eternal destiny, only their mere trust in a provision where Jesus did the commands for them and paid for every one of their sins past, present and future.

You are starting to understand the ungodliness of this theological system. Jesus told the adulterous woman to sin no more because that's what God expects from their children. According to Free Grace Theology, people can remain in their sins to supposedly be saved. The correct response from a sinner in the New Testament was what must I do? Free Grace theology teaches that people don't do anything because Jesus paid it all. Just believe in Jesus once is their teaching. They transfer all the sin problem on Christ where they can have a free gift without any remorse for sin. People don't need to follow Christ to be saved (John 10:27). People don't need to become holy to be saved (Hebrews 12:14). People don't have to wash their dirty robes to be saved (Revelation 22:14). It’s a playboy system where they can gag on sin to Satan’s delight.