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- Thread starter True Science
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Passages from the Apocrypha (assuming you mean apocryphal books NOT written after the Jesus events.
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You keep making this claim but you have not provided a single example of what you previously said...
Having read all the available works legitimately considered "apocryphal" and most of the "pseudipigraphic" works...I can say that many borrow from scripture and many creatively embellish the popular fictions and legends of their time,,,but what is that? We do the same thing today in our own fiction.
The word "pseudo-" means fake or false...ALL the pseudipigraphic works are based on the lie that the writer WAS tthe person named as writer...for example, the gnostic "Gospel of Thomas" was not written by Thomas at all...he had been dead in Christ over 100 years...immediately it was rejected as false by all the churches. We KNOW the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs (though incredible reading and quite prescient) was NOT the words of the 12 sons of Jacob....
So your very first post makes a claim and then as evidence you give YOURSELF...Jubilees was definitely written before Jesus so show (as you claim) that Jesus borrowed from it (specific scriptures please....better yet compare Jesus with Jubilees)
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Unfortunately the argumentum as populum is a common logic fallacy many fall for.
The GoT reveals its hand in many places. The quote you gave in fact ADDS TO the word spoken by our Lord (first rule laid out by God in a Biblical Hermeneutic is not to add to or take away from it...this in fact one of the main reasons why the two major heavily edited CT texts...the Vat and Sinai...which so often both disagree with one another, cannot be trusted).
We see the pure gnostic tendency trying to disguise itself when we read things life "when the male becomes the female and the female the male..." and so on...so back to the OP please...one does not use themselves to prove themselves (circular reasoning being another logic fallacy).
Please show comparative verses for your alleged claim?
In His love
Paul
The GoT reveals its hand in many places. The quote you gave in fact ADDS TO the word spoken by our Lord (first rule laid out by God in a Biblical Hermeneutic is not to add to or take away from it...this in fact one of the main reasons why the two major heavily edited CT texts...the Vat and Sinai...which so often both disagree with one another, cannot be trusted).
We see the pure gnostic tendency trying to disguise itself when we read things life "when the male becomes the female and the female the male..." and so on...so back to the OP please...one does not use themselves to prove themselves (circular reasoning being another logic fallacy).
Please show comparative verses for your alleged claim?
In His love
Paul
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Though the GOT is not scripture, it is not Gnostic. Saying 114 is part of a collection of riddles starting with Jeremiah who claimed the day would come when all men would be pregnant.
When the Bible is read in the genre of ancient wisdom literature, Christ is buried with in it from the beginning just as Jesus said. Here are the hints to the riddles.
The female was deceived. (Female are used as a metaphor for the relatively blind. Male is used for those who understand.
The wife learns silently from her husband.
Men will be pregnant
Women must become male (Thomas)
Men must become the bride (Another hint to the riddle from Sihk literature with strong tradition from Thomas)
Women are taught of their husband ... they learn from those who understand (in the case of #114 from Christ himself)
Women must become male.... the blind must see
Males must become virgins... those who understand must become the bride of Christ.
Men will be pregnant... the understanding bride of Christ will be fruitful and multiply.
A simple example of the genre of wisdom literature is the Parable of the mustard seed.
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-jesus-isaiah-53.7910533/page-2#post-68759764
The NT authors demonstrate a knowledge of the wisdom of the scriptures even referring directly to it at times. Many of the supposed contradictions of the Gospels are intentional riddles in the same genre.
Modern theologians largely admit that they cannot reproduce the exegesis of the NT authors. This simply means they do not know how to interpret the OT the way the NT authors did. They cannot read the scriptures the way Jesus and the apostles did. There are even current discussions among them as to the failures of the Historical-Grammatical method. The simple example of the mustard seed in the link above should give us cause to rethink our own methods of interpretation. After all, Jesus said that all the scriptures spoke of him. If we do not see him in them, we have missed their main purpose.
I suspect that GOT is a collection of class notes containing sample riddles to help approach the interpretation of scripture in the genre of Wisdom literature. Each of the riddles uses a method of riddling contained in the scriptures.
p.s. In Biblical Wisdom literature there is no free-for-all allegory An object that takes an abstract meaning, means the same thing everywhere it exists, making the interpretation self-correcting in the same way that crossword puzzles are self-correcting.
p.p.s. I don't have an account at the first link of the OP but it it a dubious claim considering Matthew had access to Ex 21:32 and Zec 11:12,13 and demonstrates a competence reading Wisdom literature.
When the Bible is read in the genre of ancient wisdom literature, Christ is buried with in it from the beginning just as Jesus said. Here are the hints to the riddles.
The female was deceived. (Female are used as a metaphor for the relatively blind. Male is used for those who understand.
The wife learns silently from her husband.
Men will be pregnant
Women must become male (Thomas)
Men must become the bride (Another hint to the riddle from Sihk literature with strong tradition from Thomas)
Women are taught of their husband ... they learn from those who understand (in the case of #114 from Christ himself)
Women must become male.... the blind must see
Males must become virgins... those who understand must become the bride of Christ.
Men will be pregnant... the understanding bride of Christ will be fruitful and multiply.
A simple example of the genre of wisdom literature is the Parable of the mustard seed.
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-jesus-isaiah-53.7910533/page-2#post-68759764
The NT authors demonstrate a knowledge of the wisdom of the scriptures even referring directly to it at times. Many of the supposed contradictions of the Gospels are intentional riddles in the same genre.
Modern theologians largely admit that they cannot reproduce the exegesis of the NT authors. This simply means they do not know how to interpret the OT the way the NT authors did. They cannot read the scriptures the way Jesus and the apostles did. There are even current discussions among them as to the failures of the Historical-Grammatical method. The simple example of the mustard seed in the link above should give us cause to rethink our own methods of interpretation. After all, Jesus said that all the scriptures spoke of him. If we do not see him in them, we have missed their main purpose.
I suspect that GOT is a collection of class notes containing sample riddles to help approach the interpretation of scripture in the genre of Wisdom literature. Each of the riddles uses a method of riddling contained in the scriptures.
p.s. In Biblical Wisdom literature there is no free-for-all allegory An object that takes an abstract meaning, means the same thing everywhere it exists, making the interpretation self-correcting in the same way that crossword puzzles are self-correcting.
p.p.s. I don't have an account at the first link of the OP but it it a dubious claim considering Matthew had access to Ex 21:32 and Zec 11:12,13 and demonstrates a competence reading Wisdom literature.
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I have not taken issue with GoT. I have suggested that it is thoroughly Christian, simply not scripture.`The OT scripture has a fingerprint, such that every verse of every chapter participates in a double entendre; a hidden narrative of Christ behind the literal. Enoch, though using SOME similar imagery, does not have the double layer of meaning. I am happy to be corrected if you can show it.
When you can see the hidden picture of Christ behind Acts 12 or Ge 38, you will see what I am talking about. I will be happy to demonstrate it somewhere.
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If I SHOULD be able to see it too, please demonstrate it for me.
You ARE funny. You don't even know what canon I would subscribe to, if I did, nor why. I do not accept the authority of any of the decrees of the Catholic church. You are tilting at straw-men.
I am not biased to cannon. I accept New Testament books because the actions and teaching of Christ in the gospels and the doctrines of the NT letter writers are validated by the Wisdom layer of the OT. It is a validation similar to what the Bereans did with the teaching of Paul. They checked the scriptures they had to see if it was true. Any proposed scripture will be in agreement not only in the literal layer, but in the hidden.
When I picked up other writings claimed to be scripture, it was for the express purpose to find any hint of that fingerprint. This is why I defend GoT as being Christian rather than relay on a declaration of canonicity. The whole question of canonicity is suspect anyway. It is part of the Laodicean church; the conquerors of the laity. Anyone who can read the OT Wisdom can test the NT for themselves the way the Bereans did. That's right... average Jews tested Paul's teaching against the OT. We don't need 'experts' to tell us what the Bible is.
When you are competent in the hidden layer, I will take your observations more seriously.
And frankly what you believe is of no consequence to me. I have offered information to the conversation. You have demonstrated a willingness to assume things about me which are really not even worth answering, rather than consider the information at hand. My opinion is also of no consequence. If people wish to discuss the observations from the Bible, I am happy to. It is obvious that this is not the purpose of your post.... so babble on.
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I subscribe to Pardes as taught by the NT authors, not as taught by modern Jews. They are different, and modern Jews obfuscate Christ within their application of Pardes. And yes, I observe all four layers. The church has a vague memory of the four layers, but the details are so vague they contribute little to interpretation. (see Quadriga)
Luke demonstrates the genre of a hidden picture or a mystery of Christ within Acts 12.
Herod vexed the church (known as the body of Christ) and both Herods vexed Christ.
Peter and Jesus were arrested the week before Passover.
Peter was between two guards and Christ between two thieves.
Peter was poked in the side (by the Holy Spirit) Jesus was poked in the side (by the spear).
There were three barriers to escape.. Two sets of guards and a gate, two days in death and the stone.
The gate and the stone opened by themselves.
The first person Jesus saw in resurrection was Mary, so Peter went to Mary's house.
The women who greeted them ran to tell the disciples.
They were both told they were crazy.
The disciples had to see for themselves.
When Peter and Jesus finished visiting the disciples they both went to another place.
Those who did not see Peter escape, and those who do not see the resurrected Christ, ar eput to death.
There are many more.. but these are the easiest to see.
I have also demonstrated the methods in the interpretation of the parable of the mustard seed.
You may see some notes on Ge 38 here: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/sharing-a-gift.7162421/
Much more can be done in Hebrew.
It is my observation that this kind of hidden shadow of Christ is contained in all of the Old Testament so that it all speaks of Christ in shadows and riddles.
Luke demonstrates the genre of a hidden picture or a mystery of Christ within Acts 12.
Herod vexed the church (known as the body of Christ) and both Herods vexed Christ.
Peter and Jesus were arrested the week before Passover.
Peter was between two guards and Christ between two thieves.
Peter was poked in the side (by the Holy Spirit) Jesus was poked in the side (by the spear).
There were three barriers to escape.. Two sets of guards and a gate, two days in death and the stone.
The gate and the stone opened by themselves.
The first person Jesus saw in resurrection was Mary, so Peter went to Mary's house.
The women who greeted them ran to tell the disciples.
They were both told they were crazy.
The disciples had to see for themselves.
When Peter and Jesus finished visiting the disciples they both went to another place.
Those who did not see Peter escape, and those who do not see the resurrected Christ, ar eput to death.
There are many more.. but these are the easiest to see.
I have also demonstrated the methods in the interpretation of the parable of the mustard seed.
You may see some notes on Ge 38 here: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/sharing-a-gift.7162421/
Much more can be done in Hebrew.
It is my observation that this kind of hidden shadow of Christ is contained in all of the Old Testament so that it all speaks of Christ in shadows and riddles.
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