No. I was just pointing out that a lot of that $82 or whatever dollars actually goes toward expenses. I mean quite a lot.
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Definitions of "Value" and "Earn"
- Thread starter Umaro
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@ the people calling me out for not including buns etc. I included that when I said minus upkeep, because I cannot accurately predict that number. In addition, I know that one person does not make all the burgers, which is why I only gave 20 burgers as an example. Clearly a fast foot restaurant turns out more than 20 burgers an hour, so I picked a reasonable number for one person to contribute. If anything, the division of labor means they should have higher wages.
None of you have tried to demonstrate that the wealthy have earned they're share. It's one thing to say he deserves 2 million because he supplies a job, but can you back that up? If one guy overlooks 10 McDonalds, why is he inherently adding magnitudes more value than the combined income of 10 individual family owned restaurants? You can't just argue that it's because it's a bigger company either, because it prevents other new restaurants from sprouting up. The larger a pool is, the more you can adapt to changes in the market. Rather than nitpicking my numbers, why don't you argue against the intent?
None of you have tried to demonstrate that the wealthy have earned they're share. It's one thing to say he deserves 2 million because he supplies a job, but can you back that up? If one guy overlooks 10 McDonalds, why is he inherently adding magnitudes more value than the combined income of 10 individual family owned restaurants? You can't just argue that it's because it's a bigger company either, because it prevents other new restaurants from sprouting up. The larger a pool is, the more you can adapt to changes in the market. Rather than nitpicking my numbers, why don't you argue against the intent?
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kermit
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If you win at PowerBall did you earn it? If you win at a poker game did you earn it. At every other type of gambling the term used is "won". But for some reason those who gamble in the finance sector "earn" their money.
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No one has to demonstrate anything. If an employee who makes 20 burgers feels they should be entitled to more than they can negotiate their value-for-value with their risk-taking employer, or they can go out into the market and take a risk by selling burgers for other than guaranteed ROI. To the extent that their product is valued, they will be able to exchange that value for other value.
'Value' is determined by us, living in freedom. When you buy a burger you are handing over value-for-value. If you pay 40 dollars for that burger, then that burger was worth 40 dollars to you. There are no emperors of value who determine how much a burger is worth, at least as long as we live in a free country.
When you go to your employer and say, "I will stick burgers in a bag for 7.50 an hour," that is value-for-value. If an employee and employer have both reached an agreement, then they have reached an agreement, and that is as good as it gets. By definition, it is perfect. Each has agreed to exchange value for value. If an employee agrees without believing that he is receiving value for value, then he is the fool. If an employer agrees without believing that he is receiving value for value, then he is also the fool. In fact, in exchanges for value for value, it is entirely possible(and I'd say the normal case) that both parties believe they are receiving at least value for value or even higher(ie, win-win), and that defines 'value.'
Well, when I'm declared emperor, or you're declared emperor or the citizens of Bangladesh are declared emperors, whoever is declared emperor, 'the' emperor will point his gun at us plain free citizens and declare for us all what 'the' OneSizeFitsAll National Uber-alles Price "should be" for sticking burgers in a bag. Until then, I'll live in Freedom, and decide what is worth what.
God save us from these puddingheads and their penguin armed grasp on reality.
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lordbt
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Right. The voluntary exchange of value for value is the key here. If umaro opens up umaroburger next door to Mcdonalds and pays its employees $10 per hour with benefits, he has created a competetion for empolyees that Mcdonalds will have to match or risk losing many of the employees it has. There is a big IF however. Umaroburger has to put forth a product that rivals Mcdonalds in quality and price. If the CEO falis to do so and goes out of business, what has really been accomplished? The CEO has risked everything and the employees nothing. That is why he has earned his pay, whatever it is.
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You're assuming a perfect system though. What if I open my umaroburger that pays the workers $10 and food costs the same at the expense of my own salary? The McDonalds next door will drop it's food price with a "sale" until I fold and then will go back to the norm. It's called the "strip mall effect" and it's pretty well documented. It's the same reason you very rarely see any family owned businesses around. Your claim that the CEO is earning his keep in a free market is one thing, but we've reached a point where companies are too big for a free market to function. If you're going to argue in their defense you have to show they have not created a virtual monopoly. Other examples are even more clear cut. Could you possibly as an individual set up a phone company to rival the big ones now? Of course not.
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EdwinWillers
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Value:
In a general sense, we are motivated by what we value (by our needs, wants, desires) - that is, we are "moved to act" (or "behave") iaw what we value. Indeed, all actions (or behaviors) are based on some value that drives them.
In a business transaction, value is the mutual agreement of two consenting parties regarding what the transaction is worth to both. When two parties reach an agreement on what the transaction is worth, i.e. what each party is willing to give in exchange for what the other party is willing to give in return, then the transaction can proceed - there is "business."
Value is the "worth" both parties are willing to assign to both their part of the transaction or exchange, and what they receive in return. The transaction will not occur until such an agreement can be reached.
Earn:
To "earn" something (to "merit" something) is to provide the value you agreed to when you made the business transaction. If you provide less than what you agreed to give, you do not "earn" what the other person in your transaction paid you. If you provide what you agreed to provide, you "earned" (merit) what the other party agreed to give you in return for what you gave.
If you provided MORE than what you agreed to provide, more than what the other party agreed to give in return when you made the transaction, the other party is not necessarily obligated to give you anything in return, for there was no agreement regarding such "excess" - unless the agreement included such provisos. Such excesses may go to future transactions/agreements as a form of "good will" or similar, but they are not binding (necessarily) for the other party.
Common forms of business transactions:
A retail sale - an exchange of money for some good or service of "equal value" (as defined by consenting parties).
Barter - an exchange of one good or service for another good or service (no money exchanges hands).
Employment - an exchange of wages (or other form of compensation) for defined services (job "duties" etc.).
In a general sense, we are motivated by what we value (by our needs, wants, desires) - that is, we are "moved to act" (or "behave") iaw what we value. Indeed, all actions (or behaviors) are based on some value that drives them.
In a business transaction, value is the mutual agreement of two consenting parties regarding what the transaction is worth to both. When two parties reach an agreement on what the transaction is worth, i.e. what each party is willing to give in exchange for what the other party is willing to give in return, then the transaction can proceed - there is "business."
Value is the "worth" both parties are willing to assign to both their part of the transaction or exchange, and what they receive in return. The transaction will not occur until such an agreement can be reached.
Earn:
To "earn" something (to "merit" something) is to provide the value you agreed to when you made the business transaction. If you provide less than what you agreed to give, you do not "earn" what the other person in your transaction paid you. If you provide what you agreed to provide, you "earned" (merit) what the other party agreed to give you in return for what you gave.
If you provided MORE than what you agreed to provide, more than what the other party agreed to give in return when you made the transaction, the other party is not necessarily obligated to give you anything in return, for there was no agreement regarding such "excess" - unless the agreement included such provisos. Such excesses may go to future transactions/agreements as a form of "good will" or similar, but they are not binding (necessarily) for the other party.
Common forms of business transactions:
A retail sale - an exchange of money for some good or service of "equal value" (as defined by consenting parties).
Barter - an exchange of one good or service for another good or service (no money exchanges hands).
Employment - an exchange of wages (or other form of compensation) for defined services (job "duties" etc.).
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TheNewWorldMan
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And you can count on the Libertarian crowd defining things in the way that benefits the rich the most.
I've seen some left-leaning Libertarians I can deal with, but the Ayn Rand crowd are plutocrats, plain and simple.
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wpiman2
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Well; a guy who puts down $1 of his own money and wins the lottery earned his money more than the guy on welfare who gets a government check.
A guy who find a winning lottery ticket on the street- he didn't earn it.
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lordbt
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Well, you have just demonstrated in that one sentence a greater understanding of Ayn Rand than TheNewWorldMan has demonstrated in dozens of posts. He attacks her because he doesnt know what else to lash out at. Even he gets tired of his constant assault on the evil rich.
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rambot
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Minimizing externalities and not functioning within the realm that the cost of something should be directly related to the value of something are two major hindrances to a health (current) system.
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