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Definitions and assumptions

Discussion in 'Physical & Life Sciences' started by Elendur, Mar 5, 2012.

  1. Elendur

    Elendur Gamer and mathematician

    +20
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    Hi, I've been reading a lot of threads and watching a lot of information regarding both atheism, creationism and theism (mostly christian, due to several reasons). I've seen some sites that have FAQs and some explanation to their standpoints.

    Now to the main point of this thread:

    Have anyone seen a collection of definitions and assumptions for the very basics of Science, Atheism, Creationism and Theism?

    That is:
    Have anyone seen a collection of definitions and assumptions for the most popular world views.
    For example: Atheism, Science, Theism, Creationism.
    A clear explanation of what a majority of the group can agree to.

    People are arguing about a various amount of things and are not coming to many conclusions.

    There are arguing left and right with straw-mans, definitions, evidence, age, concepts, historical events, metaphors etc.

    People are using their own definitions and basis for their arguments and have to explain them over and over. It's like watching two people standing on different sides of a river debating who's on the right side.

    Some are using arguments based on the very thing they are arguing against (like using math to "prove" absolute truths). That is only because of improper knowledge of what you are using.

    Is there anywhere where one can find a source of definitions and assumptions so one can build a well-founded opinion about what they want to say? Or should someone have to build it from scratch?


    Maybe this came out in a jumble, but I hope to be able to explain myself further if necessary.

    A video that especially got me thinking along this track was "Proof that God Exists" by MrMinistryMan on Youtube. Not only did he base his arguments on faulty assumptions, he left out a whole lot of alternatives in his multi-video project.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2012
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  2. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    I don't know of a one-size-fits-all extrabiblical writing; but as my pastor is fond of saying:

    The best interpreter of the Bible is the Bible Itself.
     
  3. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    One at a time. Which one are you talking about?
     
  4. GrowingSmaller

    GrowingSmaller Muslm Humanist

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  5. KhaosTheory

    KhaosTheory Active Member

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    I understand exactly what the OP is pointing out...

    Unfortunately, all these forum arguments are doomed to follow the same pattern unless it's participants are both educated in formal logic and the arguments take place in a controlled, formal debate format with a mediator and where both sides have clearly defined positions.

    What I see a lot in these forums is rebuttals being posted that usually completely ignore the actual points made by the opposition and instead they respond with things like strawmen, red herrings, and other silliness that the OP pointed out.
     
  6. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    If you have errors in the OP, then do not blame people to pick them out, no matter what the OP is trying to say.

    The best way to deal with that is to accept the criticism, modify the OP and make the question well defined.
     
  7. Elendur

    Elendur Gamer and mathematician

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    Just throwing in a quick reply now, will reply better (hopefully) tomorrow.

    As KhaosTheory wrote is improper arguing and incomplete understanding of each others (or even their own in the worst cases) position a widespread problem on many forums.

    An easy to find list of definitions and assumptions of what their general group are supporting would be nice and would probably make some improve their arguing.

    What GrowingSmaller wrote is what I'm looking for, though I must admit I don't know exactly what group supports it.

    If I could get a similar list for Science and some other popular groups I would be happy.
     
  8. acropolis

    acropolis so rad

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    It's difficult to see eye-to-eye in an argument where one side is basing everything on personal intuition and faith while the other is appealing to evidence. Misunderstandings complicate matters but there are some major fundamental differences it outlook that make any kind of productive debate difficult.
     
  9. Elendur

    Elendur Gamer and mathematician

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    Yes and that's why one should be familiar with both sides outlook.

    If you come to the conclusion that a special point is what makes you disagree you can analyze that, if it happens to be derived from your different world-views it should be easy to put the argument to rest since both will be "correct" in the matter.
    If you don't want to convert the other to your world-view, but that would be better for another argument.
     
  10. Elendur

    Elendur Gamer and mathematician

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    Added the bold text, I hope it defines the question better.
     
  11. Jazer

    Jazer Guest

    +0
    The pastor at a church I was attending did a rather long teaching on the Mind of Christ. He did write a book on the subject. There is clearly a difference between the mind of man and the Mind of Christ. So that we can know the Divine thoughts of God if we want to know them. Actually redemption is about having our mind redeemed and knowing the divine thoughts of God.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  12. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    Sorry, I am afraid that I can not do that.

    The intersection of theism and atheism is zero.

    But I can say that creationism includes science.
     
  13. Mr Strawberry

    Mr Strawberry Newbie

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    What one says and what is true aren't always the same thing.
     
  14. KhaosTheory

    KhaosTheory Active Member

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    Please explain how creationism has anything to do with science.

    Does it follow the same formula? deals with the same subjects? open to criticism? subject to peer-review? potentially refutable?

    The answer is NO to all... the most important of these being "is it refutable?"

    Well, obviously no. Creationism starts with assumed conclusions that are undeniable and ALWAYS absolute truth (example: The Flood actually happened, Adam and Eve really existed.)

    So it's completely unscientific because none of those points are "potentially falsifiable" in the eyes of creationists because no matter what evidence is presented, they will NEVER change their beliefs.

    Creationism is just apologetics by definition.
     
  15. Elendur

    Elendur Gamer and mathematician

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    Hmm.. I didn't mean as a list of what all those agree to, I meant one list for each of them.

    I understand that the intersection of theism and atheism is zero, at least by my informal definition they are two disjunct groups.
    Some other groups does share values though, most often no all but still. Logic is one tool most use no matter what group they belong to (some exceptions).

    Regarding the science in creationism, please explain (it sounds like I've misunderstood something then).
     
  16. Elendur

    Elendur Gamer and mathematician

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    But reading the bible and analyzing it in depth isn't something most have time to do. I assume not studying it in depth would yield little as one would most likely interpret very individually, thus differing from the group.

    Yes, redemption is nice and all. But for now I'll settle for definitions and assumptions made by man.
     
  17. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    Creationism = science + faith
     
  18. Elendur

    Elendur Gamer and mathematician

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    Nevermind, I mixed creationism up with YEC. Now those don't really rely on science if I'm correct.

    Edit: Thanks for helping me remember the difference ;)
     
  19. juvenissun

    juvenissun ... and God saw that it was good.

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    In fact, I would say there are at least 50% overlap between creationism and YEC. And there are also more than 50% overlap between YEC and science.

    These name domains are quite confusing, and in fact, not very meaningful. It is much simpler to go directly to the content.
     
  20. Mr Strawberry

    Mr Strawberry Newbie

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    Oh really?
     
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