Definition of "design"?

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Was watching a lecture by P.Z. Myers (link below), and he made the point that IDers' have yet to come up with a working definition of "design."

So, my question is for you IDers' out there, what is your understanding of the word "design" as pertaining to ID/IC/creationism?

''Design vs. Chance' by PZ Myers, AAI 2009' by PZ Myers, AAI, RDFRS, Josh Timonen - RichardDawkins.net

 

[DrkSdBls]

Typically, it means a intelligent force was behind it.....

But then, that begs the question, what is Intelligence? I mean, look at this world! A Chimp could have designed better!

 

[catzrfluffy]

Design as in things are impossible by chance, therefore they must have at least been 'intelligently guided' at one end of the definition of ID, or 'made' at the other.

 

[Thistlethorn]

Design as in things are impossible by chance, therefore they must have at least been 'intelligently guided' at one end of the definition of ID, or 'made' at the other.

You define design as something that is impossible by chance and has to have an "intelligent guide"? That's a pretty broad definition. Me walking through a maze could qualify for that.

 

[catzrfluffy]

Only if it was a supremely complicated one, and you reached the centre.

 

[Thistlethorn]

Only if it was a supremely complicated one, and you reached the centre.

Yes. Is your definition of design this broad, or would you like to narrow it down?

 

[Alunyel]

I'd define it as something that was consciously created in a specific way, to serve a specific purpose.

For example, a fork is created the way it is with a reason behind it. It's not a random shape, it's been created purposefully the way it is to fulfill a certain requirement.

 

[Thistlethorn]

I'd define it as something that was consciously created in a specific way, to serve a specific purpose.

For example, a fork is created the way it is with a reason behind it. It's not a random shape, it's been created purposefully the way it is to fulfill a certain requirement.

That would be my definition as well.

 

[Meshach]

Typically, it means a intelligent force was behind it.....

But then, that begs the question, what is Intelligence? I mean, look at this world! A Chimp could have designed better!

Whats the alternative?
The sun by perfect chance is the right distance from the earth.
The earth by perfect chance is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
The moon by perfect chance is the right distance from the earth for its gravitational pull.
By perfect chance the moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.
By perfect chance we have water which is colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
By perfect chance water has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.
By perfect chance water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.
By perfect chance water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.
By perfect chance water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.
By perfect chance water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
By perfect chance ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.
By perfect chance the human brain simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.
By perfect chance The human brain processes more than a million messages a second. Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.
By perfect chance the eye can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously. Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.
By perfect chance we can identify laws of nature that never change and observe the universe which is so orderly, so reliable .


There are many more "by perfect chance" items I found, but I will close with a verse.

Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Whats the alternative?
The sun by perfect chance is the right distance from the earth.
The earth by perfect chance is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.
The moon by perfect chance is the right distance from the earth for its gravitational pull.
By perfect chance the moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.
By perfect chance we have water which is colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
By perfect chance water has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.
By perfect chance water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.
By perfect chance water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.
By perfect chance water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.
By perfect chance water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
By perfect chance ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.
By perfect chance the human brain simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.
By perfect chance The human brain processes more than a million messages a second. Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.
By perfect chance the eye can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously. Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.
By perfect chance we can identify laws of nature that never change and observe the universe which is so orderly, so reliable .


There are many more "by perfect chance" items I found, but I will close with a verse.

Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God.

This is known as the "anthropic principle," and it is only creationists who seemed to be fooled by it. There are billions (yes, that's 000000000 'zeros') of galaxies, with trillions (yes, that's 000000000000 'zeros') of planets. Given these odds, is it possible that just once in the universe conditions were present as to allow life to evolve?

BTW, humans can only see colors in the visible spectrum, and ToE easily explains how the eye evolved. Fascinating really. You should check it out sometime.

But we digress, I am asking ID/creationists to give their working definition of "design."

 

[laconicstudent]

Whats the alternative?
The sun by perfect chance is the right distance from the earth.

Yeah, whats your point? Its improbably therefore evidence of supernatural intervention? Hooray for logical fallacy!

The earth by perfect chance is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

See the above response.

The moon by perfect chance is the right distance from the earth for its gravitational pull.
By perfect chance the moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.

You have proof that they WOULD stagnate, or that Earth would be sterile in the presence of high tides?

By perfect chance we have water which is colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

Ugh. All H2O has the same chemical properties, and its an insanely common molecule. Please take a chemistry class.

By perfect chance water has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Erm. Once again, please take a chemistry class. You make an incredibly basic concept of binding energy and phase change sound mystical, when its really just fundamental properties and covalent bonding and electronegativity.

By perfect chance water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.

See above. And also take a biology class. And the fact that you think water is a "universal" solvent merely emphasizes the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about.

By perfect chance water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Emphasis mine. You have no IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. H20 is a polar molecule.

By perfect chance water has a unique surface tension.

Based on its electronegativity. Because of the polarity of the H-O bond, the electrons are not equally shared. This forms a 104.5 degree angle in the H-0 bonds, SP3 hybridization of the orbitals etc etc. The high polarity of the molecule means that in liquid the degree of the hydrogen bonding on the slightly negative oxygen to the slightly positive hydrogen is considerable, leading liquid H2O to assume a crystalline structure which requires additional energy to disrupt, hence the increased energy requirements for phase change, and the high surface tension.

Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity

Ugh. There are multiple theories, but none are simplistic as this.

By perfect chance water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ugh, no. this happens because H2O is a highly polar molecule, has a crystalline structure in liquid state, which makes the liquid less dense then the solid, therefore solid H2O floats on liquid H2O.

By perfect chance ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans.

Lol, as opposed to being where?

But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.

yes.... so?

By perfect chance the human brain simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information.

Because it contains around 100 billion neurons.

Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

Yes. Its pretty awesome. Unfortunately saying that this is somehow logical proof of a creator or designer is the God-of-the-Gaps fallacy.

There are many more "by perfect chance" items I found, but I will close with a verse.

The fundemental laws of physics are not the product of chance.

 

[catzrfluffy]

This is known as the "anthropic principle," and it is only creationists who seemed to be fooled by it. There are billions (yes, that's 000000000 'zeros') of galaxies, with trillions (yes, that's 000000000000 'zeros') of planets.

Wait a minute, for a theory that supposedly looks for evidence, how do you know?

But we digress, I am asking ID/creationists to give their working definition of "design."

Writing a meaningful sentence or a functional computer program.
Loading a die to produce biased, often advantageous, outcomes.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The creation of a complex object such as a statue, or a stone arrow-head, or a computer, or a pocket knife.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If something has been designed by an intelligent unknown designer, we, as beings limited in knowledge, might not understand the way it is as it is, but it has been designed that way for a reason.[/FONT]

 

[catzrfluffy]

Yeah, whats your point? Hooray for logical fallacy! Ugh. Erm. merely emphasizes the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. Emphasis mine. You have no IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. Ugh. There are multiple theories, but none are simplistic as this. Ugh, no. yes.... so?

Sorry, Laconic Student,but please evolve some manners.

 

[laconicstudent]

Wait a minute, for a theory that supposedly looks for evidence, how do you know?

He didn't mention any theory at all. He mentioned that the principle Creationists and ID proponents use is silly considering the sheer number of planets and stars in the universe.

Writing a meaningful sentence or a functional computer program.
Loading a die to produce biased, often advantageous, outcomes.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The creation of a complex object such as a statue, or a stone arrow-head, or a computer, or a pocket knife.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]If something has been designed by an intelligent unknown designer, we, as beings limited in knowledge, might not understand the way it is as it is, but it has been designed that way for a reason.[/FONT]

Hooray, so: "I don't know, but the answer must be 'goddidit'"

You are aware that this is a logical fallacy. Its called "God of the Gaps".

 

[catzrfluffy]

He didn't mention any theory at all. He mentioned that the principle Creationists and ID proponents use is silly considering the sheer number of planets and stars in the universe.

Sorry, I misread, I thought he said billions of universes.
Although life hasn't been found on other planets yet.

Hooray, so: "I don't know, but the answer must be 'goddidit'"

You are aware that this is a logical fallacy. Its called "God of the Gaps".

I thought you believed in God.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

There are many more "by perfect chance" items I found, but I will close with a verse.

Or instead of "perfect chance", life (including humans) evolved because of the way things are, not in spite of them. When you understand that, you'll understand why your argument doesn't work.

 

[Meshach]

Or instead of "perfect chance", life (including humans) evolved because of the way things are, not in spite of them. When you understand that, you'll understand why your argument doesn't work.

The way things are then are becasue of perfect chance? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Meshach]

Yeah, whats your point? Its improbably therefore evidence of supernatural intervention? Hooray for logical fallacy!



See the above response.



You have proof that they WOULD stagnate, or that Earth would be sterile in the presence of high tides?



Ugh. All H2O has the same chemical properties, and its an insanely common molecule. Please take a chemistry class.



Erm. Once again, please take a chemistry class. You make an incredibly basic concept of binding energy and phase change sound mystical, when its really just fundamental properties and covalent bonding and electronegativity.



See above. And also take a biology class. And the fact that you think water is a "universal" solvent merely emphasizes the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about.



Emphasis mine. You have no IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. H20 is a polar molecule.



Based on its electronegativity. Because of the polarity of the H-O bond, the electrons are not equally shared. This forms a 104.5 degree angle in the H-0 bonds, SP3 hybridization of the orbitals etc etc. The high polarity of the molecule means that in liquid the degree of the hydrogen bonding on the slightly negative oxygen to the slightly positive hydrogen is considerable, leading liquid H2O to assume a crystalline structure which requires additional energy to disrupt, hence the increased energy requirements for phase change, and the high surface tension.




Ugh. There are multiple theories, but none are simplistic as this.




Ugh, no. this happens because H2O is a highly polar molecule, has a crystalline structure in liquid state, which makes the liquid less dense then the solid, therefore solid H2O floats on liquid H2O.



Lol, as opposed to being where?



yes.... so?



Because it contains around 100 billion neurons.



Yes. Its pretty awesome. Unfortunately saying that this is somehow logical proof of a creator or designer is the God-of-the-Gaps fallacy.



The fundemental laws of physics are not the product of chance.

You sure told me. I am totally convinced now. Everything we see and have all came about by perfect chance. I thought for sure there was an intelligence behind it. All that information just happened to happen. Lucky us. We will just take it for granted and ignore any other possibilities.
Every since you came in here I have noticed your responses to be filled with a haughtiness and pride. You consider yourself an expert and no can can tell you nothing. Rather your going to set us straight. Your pretending to be a Christian, right?

 

[DrkSdBls]

The way things are then are becasue of perfect chance? Is that what you are saying?

No, not "Perfect Chance." More like "Fortunate Chance."

In the Great Cosic game of Chance, We got rolled a 7. Of course, that isn't saying that we couldn't have benefited from an 11 but it's just how the Dice fell this one time.

 

[Meshach]

This is known as the "anthropic principle," and it is only creationists who seemed to be fooled by it. There are billions (yes, that's 000000000 'zeros') of galaxies, with trillions (yes, that's 000000000000 'zeros') of planets. Given these odds, is it possible that just once in the universe conditions were present as to allow life to evolve?

BTW, humans can only see colors in the visible spectrum, and ToE easily explains how the eye evolved. Fascinating really. You should check it out sometime.

But we digress, I am asking ID/creationists to give their working definition of "design."

ToE explains everything I know, but not without hope, chance or faith. So has ToE figured out when we fianlly were able to see and how long we groped around in the darkness? lookng for a mate? looking for food? Our eyes knew there was going to be things to see so thats why they developed? Where did that info come from? Two eyes , how convinient. Just by perfect chance.