Definition of "design"?

[Meshach]

No, not "Perfect Chance." More like "Fortunate Chance."

In the Great Cosic game of Chance, We got rolled a 7. Of course, that isn't saying that we couldn't have benefited from an 11 but it's just how the Dice fell this one time.

One time. FOR ALL THIS? Are you kidding me? The dice would of had to fall by chance multi millions of times on the number seven to give us EVREYTHING we have. WOW. Nice try though.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

ToE explains everything I know, but not without hope, chance or faith. So has ToE figured out when we fianlly were able to see and how long we groped around in the darkness? lookng for a mate? looking for food? Our eyes knew there was going to be things to see so thats why they developed? Where did that info come from? Two eyes , how convinient. Just by perfect chance.

Yes ToE explains all this nicely. Descent with modification by means of natural/sexual selection.

"Perfect chance" had absolutely nothing to do with it. Life only had to evolve just once. That's it, once. The antrhopic principle is like a puddle saying look how perfect this hole is that holds us.

 

[laconicstudent]

You sure told me. I am totally convinced now. Everything we see and have all came about by perfect chance.

When there are trillions of stars and planets in the observable universe, then yes, it isn't at all surprising.

I thought for sure there was an intelligence behind it. All that information just happened to happen. Lucky us. We will just take it for granted and ignore any other possibilities.

No, but we probably won't bother with theories that aren't supported by any evidence, violate parsimony and use the "God-of-the-Gaps" logical fallacy.

Every since you came in here I have noticed your responses to be filled with a haughtiness and pride.

K thats nice bro

You consider yourself an expert and no can can tell you nothing.

No. If you ever see a factual mistake in one of my posts, feel free to point it out politely, and explain how I am incorrect via logic and scientific evidence. That doesn't mean quoting Scripture to disprove science.

Rather your going to set us straight. Your pretending to be a Christian, right?

Lol no, I am a Christian, but you can continue throwing unrelated insults at me if you wish.

 

[laconicstudent]

ToE explains everything I know, but not without hope, chance or faith.

...so in light of the gaps, you stipulate a supernatural intervention. This is a logical fallacy called "God-of-the-Gaps", a specific example of an Argument from Ignorance.

And a literal creation or intelligent design requires far more faith then ToE.

So has ToE figured out when we fianlly were able to see and how long we groped around in the darkness?

If by "us", you mean the first animals to develop eyes, unicellular organisms have photo-sensitive cells. Evidence of complex eyes begins appearing in the fossil record around the time of the Cambrian Explosion, about 540 million years ago.

lookng for a mate? looking for food? Our eyes knew there was going to be things to see so thats why they developed?

Er... no. Eyes developed due to the pressure of natural selection. Up until that point there had been rudimentary photo-sensitive cells, but the development of eyes conferred a greater advantage then simple light detection.

Where did that info come from? Two eyes , how convinient. Just by perfect chance.

I would direct you to a biology textbook, and Google Scholar.

And it most certainly wasn't "perfect chance". It was driven by the pressure of natural selection. No offense, but you really don't know what on earth you are talking about if you think the evolution of such a biologically advantageous structure as the eye is based on chance.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

The way things are then are becasue of perfect chance? Is that what you are saying?

No, that would be the exact opposite of what I'm saying.

 

[plindboe]

I thought you believed in God.

So believing in God means one has to support fallacious arguments for God, like God-of-the-gaps?

Had I been a christian, those kinds of arguments would be my prime target to debunk, as they not only make the christian side appear credulous, but because the gaps are continually filled in by science, i.e. the more gaps you put your God into, the more frequently he's has to stand aside due to progress and actual understanding.

Peter

 

[DrkSdBls]

One time. FOR ALL THIS? Are you kidding me? The dice would of had to fall by chance multi millions of times on the number seven to give us EVREYTHING we have. WOW. Nice try though.

Exactly! This very moment is the combined outcome of a series of random events that culmulated in where we are right now.

But what you seem to be missing is that the die didn't always land on 7. The dice fell on snake-eyes again and again countless times before 7 came up and even many times after! But it all started with the first 7 that was rolled.

In the Beginning, there were but a single set of dice. Just how many times those dice were thrown will never be known but all it took was for it to land on 7 once. After that, for each 7 rolled, another pair were added to the pool.

And those dice are still being rolled even now. But keep in mind, 7 still rarely comes up in the grand scheme of the universe but with enough Dice constantly being rolled, we're bound to hit the jackpot given enough time.

And that's all you need to remember about the universe.

 

[catzrfluffy]

Stop saying God-of-the-gaps everyone. I meant sort of the way things are are the way they are because, at the very least - by guided process, God caused them to be so. Personally, I don't believe that God created a single cell and then went on a long holiday or something, and when he came back the cell had suprisingly evolved, all by itself. That's a "God-of-the-WhoopsShouldHaveKeptAnEyeOnThat" fallacy, which - believing in an omnipresent, omnipotent God - I cannot believe in.

 

[laconicstudent]

Stop saying God-of-the-gaps everyone.

We'll stop saying it if creationists stop doing it.

I meant sort of the way things are are the way they are because, at the very least - by guided process, God caused them to be so. Personally, I don't believe that God created a single cell and then went on a long holiday or something, and when he came back the cell had suprisingly evolved, all by itself. That's a "God-of-the-WhoopsShouldHaveKeptAnEyeOnThat" fallacy, which - believing in an omnipresent, omnipotent God - I cannot believe in.

That would be intelligent design, which is completely unproven, and has no evidence....

 

[Meshach]

Yes ToE explains all this nicely. Descent with modification by means of natural/sexual selection.

"Perfect chance" had absolutely nothing to do with it. Life only had to evolve just once. That's it, once. The antrhopic principle is like a puddle saying look how perfect this hole is that holds us.

Well then its obvious then. Natural selection is your god . Nothing guiding it or telling it or directing it. Its doing ALL THIS on its own. No intelligence behind it at all. just random happenings. Chance has to be in there somewhere. Lots and big time chance. Air to breath, lungs to breath with, brain to think and do. Eyes to see. Sun strategically placed. Moon, very important. Water, totally necessary. Heart to pump that blood through many miles of veins. Reproduction system, respiratory system, muscular system, skeletal system, nervous system. Food for the stomach and the stomach for food. Take just one of these things I listed away and see how we would do. Now according to the theory we started out as a single cell. SO all these things just came along over time due to natural selection.Lol, and people scoff at the idea that God did it?

 

[plindboe]

Whats the alternative?
The sun by perfect chance is the right distance from the earth.

The Earth's orbit is elliptical, in other words the distance varies. There's nothing perfect about it.

The earth by perfect chance is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

If the environment in which we exist couldn't support our existence, we wouldn't be here in the first place. So the fact that we are here means that there's a 100% chance that we're in an environment that can support our existance. How creationists can be astonished by a 100% probability I find a constant source of amusement.

The moon by perfect chance is the right distance from the earth for its gravitational pull.
By perfect chance the moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.

Oh, stop with the perfect chance nonsense. Just about any distances and any number of moons would result in tides. Even without moons, the Sun alone would have a significant tidal influence.

By perfect chance we have water which is colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life.
By perfect chance water has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.
By perfect chance water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.
By perfect chance water is also chemically neutral. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.
By perfect chance water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water is generally agreed upon to be a requirement for life. It's a very abundant molecule, which again, has nothing to do with perfect chance, being an extremely simple molecule. Btw, those smallest blood vessels and tallest trees evolved, so there's no perfect chance or design involved. Also, "water is chemically neutral"? Have you never heard of hydrolysis before? Water participates in reactions all the times.

By perfect chance water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

lol

By perfect chance ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.

Again, if the environment in which we exist couldn't support our existence, we wouldn't be here in the first place. So the fact that we are here means that there's a 100% chance that we're in an environment that can support our existance.

By perfect chance the human brain simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your keyboard. Your brain holds and processes all your emotions, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.
By perfect chance The human brain processes more than a million messages a second. Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan, to take action, and relate to other people.
By perfect chance the eye can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously. Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.

Wow, you have alotta reading to do. You can start here: Welcome to Evolution 101!

By perfect chance we can identify laws of nature that never change and observe the universe which is so orderly, so reliable .


There are many more "by perfect chance" items I found, but I will close with a verse.

Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God.

Ahh, yes, the ad-hominem verse: "I'm not breaking the forum rules, as it's God calling you a fool, not me!".

Peter

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Take just one of these things I listed away and see how we would do.

You still don't get it. Things didn't evolve in spite of the way things are, they evolved because of the way things are.

 

[Meshach]

Exactly! This very moment is the combined outcome of a series of random events that culmulated in where we are right now.

But what you seem to be missing is that the die didn't always land on 7. The dice fell on snake-eyes again and again countless times before 7 came up and even many times after! But it all started with the first 7 that was rolled.

In the Beginning, there were but a single set of dice. Just how many times those dice were thrown will never be known but all it took was for it to land on 7 once. After that, for each 7 rolled, another pair were added to the pool.

And those dice are still being rolled even now. But keep in mind, 7 still rarely comes up in the grand scheme of the universe but with enough Dice constantly being rolled, we're bound to hit the jackpot given enough time.

And that's all you need to remember about the universe.

Your right if you believe that. Its a CRAP shoot for sure. Have faith it happened that way. I will put my faith elsewhere.

 

[DrkSdBls]

Well then its obvious then. Natural selection is your god . Nothing guiding it or telling it or directing it. Its doing ALL THIS on its own. No intelligence behind it at all. just random happenings. Chance has to be in there somewhere. Lots and big time chance. Air to breath, lungs to breath with, brain to think and do. Eyes to see. Sun strategically placed. Moon, very important. Water, totally necessary. Heart to pump that blood through many miles of veins. Reproduction system, respiratory system, muscular system, skeletal system, nervous system. Food for the stomach and the stomach for food. Take just one of these things I listed away and see how we would do. Now according to the theory we started out as a single cell. SO all these things just came along over time due to natural selection.Lol, and people scoff at the idea that God did it?

You imply that that's so impossible.

Please, explain how it's so impossible..

 

[AV1611VET]

You guys who like to argue about the water fitting the puddle, and not the puddle fitting the water --- I have a question for you.

If the Anthropic Principle is a PRATT, then why isn't there life on every single planet in this solar system --- including their moons?

 

[plindboe]

Not surprisingly Meshach's post #9 didn't contain one original thought.

Peter

 

[Pete Harcoff]

If the Anthropic Principle is a PRATT, then why isn't there life on every single planet in this solar system --- including their moons?

Because life can't necessarily exist everywhere.

However, that doesn't really matter with respect to the Anthropic Principle. The Anthropic Principle is the idea that the Earth was created just so we could exist, and not that we exist because of the way the Earth happens to be.

 

[catzrfluffy]

To get a grasp on the amount of mutations we are dealing with here...
A recent experiment on bacteria went through 40,000 generations to produce a single change that enabled it to digest something it had not previously been able to handle. Between humans and a putative human-ape ancestor ten million years ago there are a maximum of perhaps one million generations, depending on the reproductive age at different stages. On the basis of the experimental evidence, that gives time for about 25 minor changes in an asexual species. At a minimum some 30 million changes are required, all of which have to be fixed in the genes despite the hurdles of sexual reproduction.
That's a many-many-many-sided dice
... it's a sphere!

 

[AV1611VET]

To get a grasp on the amount of mutations we are dealing with here...
A recent experiment on bacteria went through 40,000 generations to produce a single change that enabled it to digest something it had not previously been able to handle. Between humans and a putative human-ape ancestor ten million years ago there are a maximum of perhaps one million generations, depending on the reproductive age at different stages. On the basis of the experimental evidence, that gives time for about 25 minor changes in an asexual species. At a minimum some 30 million changes are required, all of which have to be fixed in the genes despite the hurdles of sexual reproduction.
That's a many-many-many-sided dice
... it's a sphere!

It sure is!

Evolution is like a cheap fps (frames per second) movie, with most of the frames missing.

There's just not enough seconds in the universe for evolution to have gone from abiogenesis to us.

 

[DrkSdBls]

Your right if you believe that. Its a CRAP shoot for sure. Have faith it happened that way. I will put my faith elsewhere.

You obviously know nothing about games of Chance......

You see, if you agree that it's a Game of Chance then you are also conceeding that it's a Probable Metaphor.. You're not doing much for your arguement by giving up your only point of contest.

We can Prove that a pair of Dice has a chance to come of 7. This isn't Faith. This has nothing to do with Faith. OK. Betting your whole Life-Savings that a pair of dice WILL Land of 7 if you roll; that's Faith. It's also not playing the game based on it's odds either.

Even something has no more then a 1% chance of something occuring still has a chance to occur. It doesn't matter how low of a chance of something occuring. This doesn't change the fact that, if it did occur, it still occured!

The only way to argue against chance is to prove that those dice will never land on 7; which you can not do.