Defining terms shortens debate: Free Will

Bible Highlighter · Sep 2, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
No, God's plan means the elect will be in heaven. To call them forever saved is not quite as accurate as to say that once they are regenerated, there is no going back. They are forever new creatures in Christ. They persevere, the same way they repent, the same way they believe, the same way they are regenerated --by the Spirit of God.

Things are not as you say. According to the Bible: We are not forced to be a certain way after we are saved by God's grace. For...

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Such instructions would not exist if what you say was true.

i submitted to the Lord · Sep 2, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I will pray about it, and I will search the Scriptures.
If nothing comes of it, then I will know that I was not wrong to debate on Christian forums.
In fact, what would be my alternative platform to preach the Word to others?
Do you have one that would fit my personality?
You have to think that if I don't talk on the forums in regards to God's Word, I will not keep verses fresh in my mind, and I will not be digging deeper into God's Word by discussion with other believers (that is not always the case with believers in person).
So I see your request as something that would hinder my growth in studying God's Word.
Yes, I do personal word studies by just opening the good book. I do that, too. But there is another element of study that happens when you are challenged by an opponent. Not sure you understand that and how that can be fruitful.

Does Man Have Free Will?

Free will is defined in a few different ways. Here is one of it's definitions.

Free will (Noun) - The ability to act at one's own discretion.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...sh/free%2Bwill

In fact, the origin of the word "will" is especially important to look at, too. It says this..

Will (Verb) - To wish, desire, want, to will, or to choose.

Online Etymology Dictionary

Now, how can you have the desire for anything or to choose differently if you did not have the free choice (i.e. free will) to choose or to not to choose in the first place?

Anyways, here is a list of the different types of Free Will that I hope you shall consider.

The Three different types of Free Will:

#1. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Type Free Will.
#2. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will.
#3. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will.

And the hypothetical Free Will that does not exist for any being within our universe.
Which is...

#1. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will.

A. Man's Limited Slave to Sin Free Will:
All non-believers or people who have not genuinely accepted Christ as their Savior are slaves to sin in some way. Now, this does not mean that unbelievers are not capable of making limited free will choices that are correct or good for their own well being (like choosing not to murder, steal, fornicate, or do drugs). However, on the other hand they are limited in their free will in the sense that they are slaves to sin and will have some type of sin within their life that separates them from God.

B. Man's Limited Redemptive Type Free Will:
All true believers in Christ or those who genuinely accept Jesus as their Savior are set free from being a slave to sin. This gives the believer a higher level of free will than that of a non-believer who is incapable of not sinning habitually. Now, does this mean that the believer does not have the free will to no longer sin anymore? No, most certainly not. It just means that they are no longer bound to sin anymore and are given a higher status of limited free will (or limited choices). They are also not forced against their free will to have a continued salvation or to still be a believer in Christ if they decide to change their minds, too. They still must choose each day to serve the Lord or to not serve the Lord. For a believer can forfeit his or her salvation if they do not live for Christ and become a new creature; Thus, showing that they were born again.

C. God's Limited to Doing Only Good Type Free Will:
God is limited to doing only that which is good and right. For God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. God is love and in Him is no evil. He is the very embodiment of all that is Holy, just, perfect, and good in this life. For there is none good but God. In other words, God is incapable of doing any type of evil or sin. He is perfect and good in every way. His limitation is that He can only do that which is good and right. Which of course is a good limitation to have. So praise be to our God for being all that is loving and good.

D. Ultimate or Absolute Free Will:
No being in the universe has absolute or ultimate free will. For if absolute free will existed, then there would have to be a being who could do whatever they wanted whether good or evil with no restrictions or consequences attached whatsoever. In other words, this concept of Free Will is purely imaginary because no being possesses this type of Free Will type characteristics.

In other words, It is not God's will or desire that you sin and reject Him. Yes, you are under His creation, sovereign rule, and divine plan (because the Lord can work both good and evil for His purposes), but God does not approve of someone doing evil as if it was His approved of will or desire for your life. God is good. Not evil.

For the moment you take away free will (not ultimate free will) is the moment you make God responsible for directly creating evil and sin. However, there is no darkness in God at all. God created free willed beings that made the decision to be evil and to sin. God did not force Adam and Eve to rebel. They had a choice to either choose life or to choose death. They chose death. Not because God wanted them to. It was because they wanted to choose death.

Free will is a choice that leads you down a path that determines which road you want to take.

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

Do you want to debate this?
You already established that is not your thing.

No, i don't wish to debate that nor you. But hopefully clarify it as there are important points, from what you wrote, that i think require further clarification that can lead to a better discernment. But i agree with much of what you wrote. And by clarifying, discussing, REASONING together and NOT debating, with a humble, meek and honest spirit, willing to listen and learn whenever necessary, is how i believe one is edified. If indeed we both seek truth, righteousness, love and God, not just to prove our own beliefs and "validate" our prejudices and worldview to ourselves and everyone else. After all, God's word does not need defendants, because it will never be made invalid by men's beliefs nor by satan's lies and It is the ultimate standard upon which everything else is judged. But what WE need is a true elucidation of It if we are to truly abide and grow in Christ, and not just in our own beliefs and inclinations (which are reflected in our personality).

That is why i asked you first before sharing anything more with you about the "free will" topic, because i am not here to debate nor fight anyone. But hopefully help edify you, and in the process, be edified as well too.

If you agree, i will cobtinue then. Otherwise, then I'll let things be.

Peace, grace and wisdom to you.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 2, 2020

i submitted to the Lord said:
No, i don't wish to debate that nor you. But hopefully clarify it as there are important points, from what you wrote, that i think require further clarification that can lead to a better discernment. But i agree with much of what you wrote. And by clarifying, discussing, REASONING together and NOT debating, with a humble, meek and honest spirit, willing to listen and learn whenever necessary, is how i believe one is edified. If indeed we both seek truth, righteousness, love and God, not just to prove our own beliefs and "validate" our prejudices and worldview to ourselves and everyone else. After all, God's word does not need defendants, because it will never be made invalid by men's beliefs nor by satan's lies and It is the ultimate standard upon which everything else is judged. But what WE need is a true elucidation of It if we are to truly abide and grow in Christ, and not just in our own beliefs and inclinations (which are reflected in our personality).

That is why i asked you first before sharing anything more with you about the "free will" topic, because i am not here to debate nor fight anyone. But hopefully help edify you, and in the process, be edified as well too.

If you agree, i will cobtinue then. Otherwise, then I'll let things be.

Peace, grace and wisdom to you.

Debate:

a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.

Source:
Oxford Dictionary

Well, first, the fact that you keep putting forth your position for not debating continually shows that you are debating for not debating (Which is contradictory), my friend. I do not see a problem in debating (Which is what you are doing). The Scriptures talk about how Jesus debated with the Pharisees and Saducees by the fact that he condemned their beliefs and He put forth the truth the word of His Father. For the moment a person puts forth their position and they condemn the other position (Which is what Jesus did), then one is setting forth a debate or disagreement. Going back and forth and discussing the truth of His Word and defending the truth is not contrary to God's Word. Remember, Jesus gave the truth, and the Pharisees gave what they believed, and Jesus returned with speaking the truth in return. This is debate (albeit a short form of debate). “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.” (2 Timothy 4:2). The problem with your view in not debating in defending the faith is that you have not given me any Scripture verses to confirm such a truth. Also, I put forth valid reasons for the discussion or debate of God's Holy Word. It has helped me to bear forth good fruit in learning more the Word of God. Jesus says a tree is known by its fruit. Do you agree?

Second, I am open to hearing your position on the free will matter. Is it Molinism? Or is it something else? If it is something else, I am curious as to what this could be. So please share. Remember, it is not about just sharing the truth with me, but it is about sharing the truth with others who can later read your words years later from now. But if you are not into sharing the truth, then by all means. Remember, a light cannot be hid. God's Word is a lamp.

Mark Quayle · Sep 2, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Things are not as you say. According to the Bible: We are not forced to be a certain way after we are saved by God's grace. For...

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Such instructions would not exist if what you say was true.

I didn't say we were forced. Why do you insist on this perversion of logic? CAUSED does not equal FORCED.

You sound like the servant of the parable of the talents ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed" compared to Jonah, "I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.". You call it forcing, where God has mercy. Wow!

You pretend that our efforts are the deciding factor as to whether or not we are successful in spiritual matters --as to whether or not we even turn to God? HOW can a mind as small, silly, self-important, ignorant, unstable, self-aggrandizing, subject to all laws of this temporal universe including "cause-and-effect", have any solid virtue in Spiritual things??? No sir, our decisions are the result --God's are the cause.

Do we decide at all?? Of course!!! Who has said otherwise? But you want to make God depend on OUR foolishness??? We do so, because it is so, in Christ. We are not separately complete beings that he must dignify as fellow beings with unfettered free will. We are talking about GOD, here!

"We love him BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US" does not say, "We intelligently and knowledgeably decided to love him, after considering the pros and cons and the fact that he loved us and concluding that reciprocating would be advantageous if not pleasurable; and we chose to do so with all our great heart of integrity that God must value as separately capable of understanding the decision it was making". It is mere fact that we who love him do so as a result of his loving us.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 2, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
I didn't say we were forced. Why do you insist on this perversion of logic? CAUSED does not equal FORCED.
.

So a person can resist God's will in being elected?
If not, then it is forced.
If you had no choice in the matter, then it is forced.

As for the rest of what you wrote, I am extremely busy today.
So I do not have time to address everything you written so as to defend the truth for others to see.

Mark Quayle · Sep 2, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
So a person can resist God's will in being elected?
If not, then it is forced.
If you had no choice in the matter, then it is forced.

As for the rest of what you wrote, I am extremely busy today.
So I do not have time to address everything you written so as to defend the truth for others to see.

Irresistible Grace refers to the fact that whom God chooses will indeed be saved. A changed (regenerated) heart WANTS Christ, and indeed because of the Spirit within, already belongs to Christ! Where, then, the forcing? It cannot ultimately resist God's grace, because it has already been changed.

Do you complain that God has forced you to be born, or to have whatever nature you have? Why then call it "forced", when God gives you rebirth and a new nature, and that, to a better state than before? Was your earlier state (of spiritual death) of such great value that you preferred it to what God has done in you? Do you insist on your right of Free Will as seminal to existence? Who do you think you are, in the eyes of God, apart from him? "Forced"???? "Caused" yes, and thank God for that, because left to my own free will, it would never have happened.

renniks · Sep 2, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
didn't say we were forced. Why do you insist on this perversion of logic? CAUSED does not equal FORCED

Oh good grief, how can you even say that? It totally defies logic. If I'm caused to do something, I have no other option, so, yes, I'm forced to do it.

renniks · Sep 2, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Do you complain that God has forced you to be born, or to have whatever nature you have?

Where does it say that God has caused me to have a certain nature?

i submitted to the Lord · Sep 2, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Debate:

a formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.

Source:
Oxford Dictionary

Well, first, the fact that you keep putting forth your position for not debating continually shows that you are debating for not debating (Which is contradictory), my friend. I do not see a problem in debating (Which is what you are doing). The Scriptures talk about how Jesus debated with the Pharisees and Saducees by the fact that he condemned their beliefs and He put forth the truth the word of His Father. For the moment a person puts forth their position and they condemn the other position (Which is what Jesus did), then one is setting forth a debate or disagreement. Going back and forth and discussing the truth of His Word and defending the truth is not contrary to God's Word. Remember, Jesus gave the truth, and the Pharisees gave what they believed, and Jesus returned with speaking the truth in return. This is debate (albeit a short form of debate). “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.” (2 Timothy 4:2). The problem with your view in not debating in defending the faith is that you have not given me any Scripture verses to confirm such a truth. Also, I put forth valid reasons for the discussion or debate of God's Holy Word. It has helped me to bear forth good fruit in learning more the Word of God. Jesus says a tree is known by its fruit. Do you agree?

Second, I am open to hearing your position on the free will matter. Is it Molinism? Or is it something else? If it is something else, I am curious as to what this could be. So please share. Remember, it is not about just sharing the truth with me, but it is about sharing the truth with others who can later read your words years later from now. But if you are not into sharing the truth, then by all means. Remember, a light cannot be hid. God's Word is a lamp.

According to the definition you have placed above...Where are my opposing arguments? By what i shared with you, have i opposed you? Am i contending with you with that? Other definitions of debate:

1. A discussion involving opposing points; an argument.
2. Deliberation; consideration: passed the motion with little debate.
3. A formal contest of argumentation in which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition.
4. Obsolete Conflict; strife.

The etymology is:
debate (v.)
late 14c., "to quarrel, dispute," also "to combat, fight, make war" (senses now archaic), also "discuss, deliberate upon the pros and cons of," from Old French debatre (13c., Modern French débattre), originally "to fight," from de- "down, completely" (see de-) + batre "to beat," from Latin battuere "beat" (see batter (v.)).

I have stated that i agree with you in many ways, except your proclivity to debate and now, i see, some other issues. I don't read anywhere about Jesus actively seeking pharisees or sadducees to debate them, nor going back and forth with them with their opposing views either. Did Jesus debate with His apostles and disciples. Did He or Paul ever state that the way or one way for Spiritual growth is in debating or even arguing? But even with that i am no trying to contend with you, by all means, I don't take you to be my opponent. I shared something with you, hopefully for you to see the futility of your contentions on those who actually hold opposing and firm views to yours. About the issue regarding "free will" i also stated i agree with you on many points and that some require further clarification. I offered to present those, hoping for this to be of edification. And that is what i wished to discuss, reason, dialogue, not debate or fight over with you. Now, it seems to me, that you've made an opponent out of me in your mind.

Yes, the tree is know by its fruits. By those who can actually see them and judge them rightly.

Mark Quayle · Sep 2, 2020

renniks said:
Oh good grief, how can you even say that? It totally defies logic. If I'm caused to do something, I have no other option, so, yes, I'm forced to do it.

So you are saying you are forced, either by all previous causes (since cause-and-effect is pervasive) without God causing them, or with God causing them --either way, to your thinking, you are forced? Were you forced to be conceived, forced to be born, forced to draw breath, and forced to be the person you became? Why complain if your situation and self are improved at God's choice?

Mark Quayle · Sep 2, 2020

renniks said:
Where does it say that God has caused me to have a certain nature?

What, you think you are a human by choice? And did you tell Adam to sin?

"It is he (God) that has made [you], and not [you yourself]." from Psalm 100

renniks · Sep 2, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
So you are saying you are forced, either by all previous causes (since cause-and-effect is pervasive) without God causing them, or with God causing them --either way, to your thinking, you are forced? Were you forced to be conceived, forced to be born, forced to draw breath, and forced to be the person you became? Why complain if your situation and self are improved at God's choice?

So now you agree with me? No I don't believe we are forced because I don't believe God works that way. I believe we cause things to happen by our choices. But if all is pre destined, then how is that any different than fate?

renniks · Sep 2, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
What, you think you are a human by choice? And did you tell Adam to sin?

"It is he (God) that has made [you], and not [you yourself]." from Psalm 100

I didn't ask who made us. And God didn't tell Adam to sin either, so how does that work?
Where does it say we have to have a certain nature? What scripture actually says is that we choose life or death.

Mark Quayle · Sep 2, 2020

renniks said:
So now you agree with me? No I don't believe we are forced because I don't believe God works that way. I believe we cause things to happen by our choices. But if all is pre destined, then how is that any different than fate?

Fate is impersonal, what God does is purposed.

We do cause things to happen by our choices. I haven't said otherwise. But our choices are part of the long chain of cause and effect that causes things to happen. God uses means to accomplish his ends.

Mark Quayle · Sep 2, 2020

renniks said:
I didn't ask who made us. And God didn't tell Adam to sin either, so how does that work?
Where does it say we have to have a certain nature? What scripture actually says is that we choose life or death.

I'm telling you that God made us to have the nature we do. We did not do it ourselves. We are human and we are born in sin and enslaved to sin until he gives us new birth. THAT is the nature I was referring to. Yes, it is without exception for us --we all have that nature, and yes, God planned that.

Of course we choose life or death. But, enslaved to sin, we will ALWAYS choose death, until the Spirit of God moves in and changes our hearts.

Jok · Sep 2, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Were you forced to be conceived

Yes

Mark Quayle said:
forced to be born

Yes

Mark Quayle said:
forced to draw breath

Yes

Mark Quayle said:
and forced to be the person you became?

No

There would be no problem if you replaced “Cause and Effect” with “Force and Effect.” The only difference is that one word sounds more pleasant than the other.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 2, 2020

i submitted to the Lord said:
According to the definition you have placed above...Where are my opposing arguments? By what i shared with you, have i opposed you? Am i contending with you with that? Other definitions of debate:

1. A discussion involving opposing points; an argument.
2. Deliberation; consideration: passed the motion with little debate.
3. A formal contest of argumentation in which two opposing teams defend and attack a given proposition.
4. Obsolete Conflict; strife.

The etymology is:
debate (v.)
late 14c., "to quarrel, dispute," also "to combat, fight, make war" (senses now archaic), also "discuss, deliberate upon the pros and cons of," from Old French debatre (13c., Modern French débattre), originally "to fight," from de- "down, completely" (see de-) + batre "to beat," from Latin battuere "beat" (see batter (v.)).

I have stated that i agree with you in many ways, except your proclivity to debate and now, i see, some other issues. I don't read anywhere about Jesus actively seeking pharisees or sadducees to debate them, nor going back and forth with them with their opposing views either. Did Jesus debate with His apostles and disciples. Did He or Paul ever state that the way or one way for Spiritual growth is in debating or even arguing? But even with that i am no trying to contend with you, by all means, I don't take you to be my opponent. I shared something with you, hopefully for you to see the futility of your contentions on those who actually hold opposing and firm views to yours. About the issue regarding "free will" i also stated i agree with you on many points and that some require further clarification. I offered to present those, hoping for this to be of edification. And that is what i wished to discuss, reason, dialogue, not debate or fight over with you. Now, it seems to me, that you've made an opponent out of me in your mind.

Yes, the tree is know by its fruits. By those who can actually see them and judge them rightly.

It is written:

Acts of the Apostles 18:28
For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Test all things; hold fast what is good.

Philippians 1:17
But the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel.

Proverbs 25:9
Debate your case with your neighbor, And do not disclose the secret to another;

Acts of the Apostles 19:8-10
And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God.
But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.
And this continued for two years, so that all who dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 2, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Irresistible Grace refers to the fact that whom God chooses will indeed be saved. A changed (regenerated) heart WANTS Christ, and indeed because of the Spirit within, already belongs to Christ! Where, then, the forcing? It cannot ultimately resist God's grace, because it has already been changed.

Right, in Calvinism, one is changed by being force against one's own will to be one of the Elect. They had no say so in the matter.

You said:
Do you complain that God has forced you to be born, or to have whatever nature you have? Why then call it "forced", when God gives you rebirth and a new nature, and that, to a better state than before? Was your earlier state (of spiritual death) of such great value that you preferred it to what God has done in you? Do you insist on your right of Free Will as seminal to existence? Who do you think you are, in the eyes of God, apart from him? "Forced"???? "Caused" yes, and thank God for that, because left to my own free will, it would never have happened.

If there was no choice that I made in the matter, then it is a choice that is forced upon me. Yes, even being born was a choice that was forced upon me. I did not choose to be born. It was a forced decision by God and my parents. My existence was a forced decision. But when it comes to choosing God, that is not a forced decision. God does not force me to love Him. If that was the case, then why doesn't He force everyone to love Him? Why does God get upset at sin? Can He not just force change those who sin against Him and not be upset anymore? See, that is why Calvinism does not make any sense.

Mark Quayle · Sep 3, 2020

Jok said:
Yes

Yes

Yes

No

There would be no problem if you replaced “Cause and Effect” with “Force and Effect.” The only difference is that one word sounds more pleasant than the other.

My point is that whatever state in which you find yourself, seems to one's thinking to be the default, with no particular blame placed, normally speaking. But suddenly, the same One (God) who arranged your default, changes you from your default to Regenerated and you want to scream "unfair"?

Mark Quayle · Sep 3, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Right, in Calvinism, one is changed by being force against one's own will to be one of the Elect. They had no say so in the matter.

Wrong. They are not forced. They are not changed against their will. Their will is changed, their heart, their desires, their worldview all changed. They did not decide one thing simultaneously with God deciding against it. The whole being is made new. "Forced??"

You presume a complete self, a being like God who is what he is in and of himself, one capable of dealing with God at his level. You want God to deal with the respect of an equal.

Bible Highlighter said:
If there was no choice that I made in the matter, then it is a choice that is forced upon me. Yes, even being born was a choice that was forced upon me. I did not choose to be born. It was a forced decision by God and my parents. My existence was a forced decision. But when it comes to choosing God, that is not a forced decision. God does not force me to love Him. If that was the case, then why doesn't He force everyone to love Him? Why does God get upset at sin? Can He not just force change those who sin against Him and not be upset anymore? See, that is why Calvinism does not make any sense.

A note here: "Does not make sense TO ME" is not the same thing as "does not make sense." Just saying....

Why use the word, "force"?, is my point. You are antagonistic against "cause", so you say "force".

Anyhow, If God caused, or "forced", since you like that, you to love him, why would he force everyone else to love him? That is not his purpose. Sin opposes him, it lies about him. Why would he not "get upset" at sin? No, it is not a question of what he can do --after all, if it was a question of what he can do, why create at all?-- it is a question of what he WILL do, to accomplish the end he has intended all along --the Bride of Christ.

The Bride of Christ, is a very specific construction of members. It is not "as big as possible", it is not a haphazard jumble, it is not a choosing according to earthly accomplishments and achievements, as though God intended for the Bride will be As Good As Possible. No, She will be PERFECT, without spot or blemish, complete, nothing missing, nothing substituted. Made by God for God, for his own reasons, for his own Glory.

Defining terms shortens debate: Free Will

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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