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My apologies. What is it about those two verses that I should have addressed? Do you have a post # for me to see what you said about them?
(Among other things) .. Because when it says we are a new creation in Christ?
The Greek wording means, "a new creation that never existed before." "A new thing."
Its why we are called a "new" creation. OT saints were not this new creation we have been made to become.
Its new like the atomic bomb was a revolutionary new kind of weapon in warfare. Nothing existed like it before it was created.
New, like it never existed before yes. Revolutionary, yes. So let's see, going by that logic, if let's say, Steven in the NT was a new creation, how are we a new creation? I mean, why do you draw the line at OT/NT?
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to
present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came
among them." Job 1:6
Just like Adam was called the son of God!
the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son ofgrace and peace......
Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God." Luke 3:37-38
"...take not your Holy Spirit from me." (David, OT)Because the OT saints were never made to become temples of the Holy Spirit. Instead, the Holy Spirit resided in the Temple building only. Don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit?
OT saints never had that. That is why they had to be restrained by being under the Law. For they did not have the indwelling presence to restrain their sin natures. We do! We are a new creation in Christ. That is why we are not under the Law if we are being led of the Spirit.
My apologies. What is it about those two verses that I should have addressed? Do you have a post # for me to see what you said about them?
"...take not your Holy Spirit from me." (David, OT)
Where did God dwell before there was a temple or tabernacle?
He made a marked point concerning his coming dwelling place by his presence in the Holy of Holies. This by no means implies that he was not also indwelling the elect regenerated back then. There has only ever been one Gospel.
It shows he was repentant and grieved over his sin and was pleading with God for forgiveness. Its irrelevant whether or not a person is an Arminian, Calvinist, Lutheran, Baptist, Evangelical etc.......Now, why would David plead for forgiveness and or to not take His Holy Spirit from king David if David was one of the Elect? Why would he bother? In the world of Calvinism: God will decide whether or not He is forgiven, and God will forever force His Spirit upon David. David would never be in fear of the Spirit being taken away from Him, if King David was a Calvinist. This is why Calvinism is highly illogical. It just doesn't fit what we read in Scripture.
Thank you for your reply.Many times I do leave thread discussions, and or do not endlessly debate with a person on certain topics. In my experience in talking on Christian forums for about 10 years, I believe I have learned to dig deeper in God's Word by my opponents. Sometimes a question is asked that I normally would not have considered, and it takes you down an interesting path in God's Word. My opponents may not always agree with me, but I do learn to do my homework to defend the truth for others to see. For in a sea of error, somebody has to be a light of Christ to shine the truth like a lighthouse.
“For he powerfully refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ.” (Acts of the Apostles 18:28) (BLB).
2 “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.” (2 Timothy 4:2-5).
As for your question:
Have I convinced anyone?
Only the Lord knows which believers have been helped by what I have written. But I do recall a few times convincing folks on rare occasion. In other cases, I have offered biblical data that was extremely helpful to others and they were appreciative for it. So while you may see mostly debate, I keep in the fight of fighting the good fight of faith so that some other believer who is seeking for the truth will by some chance come across this forum and they will be helped in some way by what I had written with God's Word.
No. David may not have meant it the way you take him to say, but that he feels a lack of closeness. And besides that, David himself may not have known the Spirit never abandons what it set out to accomplish. Calvinism never says God forces his Spirit upon anyone. That is YOUR word for the grace of God. And not that it changes the point, but I don't read the word, "forgive", anywhere in that psalm (51).Now, why would David plead for forgiveness and or to not take His Holy Spirit from king David if David was one of the Elect? Why would he bother? In the world of Calvinism: God will decide whether or not He is forgiven, and God will forever force His Spirit upon David. David would never be in fear of the Spirit being taken away from Him, if King David was a Calvinist. This is why Calvinism is highly illogical. It just doesn't fit what we read in Scripture.
Anyways, I cannot take Calvinism seriously or those who adhere to it because of the many obvious and clear verses that refute it. Take for example 2 Thessalonians 2:10. It says that the reason why those who perish is because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved.
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).
Two things that demolish Calvinism here in this verse.
#1. The reason why those who perish is because they received not the love of the truth.
#2. Those who perish have the capacity to receive the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. Note: In Calvinism, there is no such thing as “MIGHT be saved.”
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!” (Matthew 23:37) (KJV).
Okay, so Jesus is saying to those individuals in Jerusalem that He desires to gather them like a hen gathers its chicks beneath its wings but the Jerusalem people would not allow the Lord to do so. Jesus is obviously referring to the Israelites in Jerusalem and their salvation. For to follow Jesus is to save one's soul. For he that shall lose his life shall save it, and he that shall save his life shall lose it. Calvinism is refuted in this verse because the will of God in desiring to gather the Jerusalem people for their salvation is being stopped by their own willingness and choice.
Thank you for your reply.
Clearly, your debates have allowed me to see what you believe, with which i agree in many ways. Although I can't say all, because i haven't read all you've written in these forums. And that has been good on one hand. But on the other, I see that many others do not agree and while you believe to be of light by exposing what you believe to be true, they usually don't believe so. They consider you in error, not in truth. You are taken to be the one twisting the Scriptures and being nonsensical, while you may believe the same regarding them.
So, my point is: Those who agree with you, already do so because they already have it IN them to agree. That is, they have a similar knowledge to yours. Like I do. But those who don't, largely dig in their heels and resist what you say, because that is what is IN them.
There may be some, how many, I don't know, who are yet indecisive about a position, and you arguments or the other side's arguments may help them tilt to either way, or even come up with a third way. But in the meantime, what I've witnessed so far that mostly comes out from these debates, is not edification. But strife and contention. I've seen former fellowships torn apart by this desire to show others how wrong they are about something, even if they agree on other things. And this division, this contention, I don't think that's really the fight we are called to fight. I think that fight is mostly about our sanctification, which i understand you are doing and also think you know how fraught it is with obstacles and opposition. For there are many things within us that must be shone under the light and removed from our hearts. Things such as the desire to be right, the holding fast to past, still fleshly paradigms that obfuscate and cloud our understanding of Scripture and many more things. Things that are necessary to fully cast out from our hearts to truly grow in perfection in Christ.
Now, I don't deny that it is important to defend and stand for what one knows is true, good and correct just as Christ did and as Paul did. But one must be very, very careful not to fall into the devil's traps, which are many and constantly present, while we do that. Remember, what others believe to be true, it is so to them, because there is something IN them (and that in effect says something about "free" will, is it really free, or is it tilted someway?) that compels them to believe so. Just like there is something in us that allow us to see what we see and believe in it. Who will truly be in God, after all of this? Because certainly not every belief alligns with His word, no matter how strongly one holds it. Well, God knows who are His'.
But i also believe the following is true regarding the wisdom that is earthly vs. the wisdom that comes from above:
"Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is , there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace."
James 3:13-18 KJVAAE
It's noteworthy now how it says: "easy to be entreated," that is, good to persuade or as HELPS word studies states, "its easy to come to terms with because already willing" It does not require a constant back and forth. The wisdom that comes from above is easy to be entreated by those who are already inclined and willing to it, because somehow, I don't know exactly how, they have actively kept that light which lights everyone that comes into the world, and thus are prepared to receive the love for truth. It does not mean they will fuly understand everything. Not at all. But certainly, they do not require constant persuasion, discussion or debate to see, even if its a glimpse, of what is already IN them.
I just wanted to share this with you. I know I've made many mistakes in my discussions and debates. It pains me to remember that. And i see people here making some of those mistakes.
May God bless you and may we fully submit to His wisdom.
It shows he was repentant and grieved over his sin and was pleading with God for forgiveness. Its irrelevant whether or not a person is an Arminian, Calvinist, Lutheran, Baptist, Evangelical etc.......
David is writing from his heart not a from a theological position.
IMHO your question is a fallacious one at best.
FYI- there are better passages than this example to counter calvinism than the example you just gave us.
hope this helps !!!
Once a person is born again they do not become unborn. Same in the physical birth, same in the spiritual birth. Its called ETERNAL LIFE for a reason and not conditional or temporal life.Does being one of the Elect mean you are forever saved?
I appreciate your attitude and willingness to consider, pray and research some more; and I thank God for it.Every Christian needs a platform to spread the truth of God's Word. Some are street preachers. Some preach in a church building. Others preach in their home with other believers. Others preach by videos. Others preach by writing books, or comics. I know that by talking on the forums has helped me to have a platform. The forums have helped me to stay actively engaged in God's Word, and I have helped people in understanding His Word, as well. I do not always keep debating an issue over, and over, and over with folks if I feel they are not getting it or they just want to hear what they want to hear (Despite what the Bible says). Granted, over the years, I was not perfect. I have let certain debates drag on longer than they should. But even amongst certain topics that have dragged on for a certain length of time, while my opponent did not benefit, I surely did, and I know that others have as well. For example: I remember one topic of discussion involving God's Word in the past. Did Jesus' first miracle recorded in Scripture involve the making of alcoholic wine or was it unfermened wine (grape juice)? I discussed this topic two times at great length. In this kind of debate or discussion, I started to do my research on the topic in order to defend what I believed was the truth. This is not something I would have done if I just read and believed the Bible. So my opponents have helped me to dig deeper in God's Word so as to shine the truth of His Word to all. You have to remember that there are other people who may not even sign up at this website and they can read years later what I had written by doing a Google search. So I write for them. They that have ears to hear will hear in the proper timing later on. I am nothing. Jesus is everything. My goal is to plant seeds, and let another water. But it is God that gives the increase.
But I consider what you have to say, and I will pray about it, and research this topic that you suggest some more.
Peace, blessings, and love be unto you in the Lord Jesus Christ;
And may always be strong in the power of His might.
No, God's plan means the elect will be in heaven. To call them forever saved is not quite as accurate as to say that once they are regenerated, there is no going back. They are forever new creatures in Christ. They persevere, the same way they repent, the same way they believe, the same way they are regenerated --by the Spirit of God.Does being one of the Elect mean you are forever saved?
Once a person is born again they do not become unborn. Same in the physical birth, same in the spiritual birth. Its called ETERNAL LIFE for a reason and not conditional or temporal life.
hope this helps !!!
I appreciate your attitude and willingness to consider, pray and research some more; and I thank God for it.
You said:And now, may I kindly ask you. Would you like me to share with you what I've learned and come to understand as free will? It's neither calvinistic, nor really something that can be called "free" by normal standards and definitions.
Peace, grace, love and wisdom to you.
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