Defining God in Theistic Arguments

[Ana the Ist]

God can easily speak His truth through people to give others a chance to understand and believe. This is especially necessary for those who won't open their Bible and read His word, but are curious about God.

However, He won't force anyone to believe, but He will give many opportunities and often will allow someone to suffer in order to bring them closer to Himself.

Why make them suffer? Why not just let them stand apart from him?

 

[Davian]

...

However, He won't force anyone to believe, but He will give many opportunities and often will allow someone to suffer in order to bring them closer to Himself.

By "He won't force anyone to believe", you mean he will appear, by every objective measure to date, to be fictional?

 

[Chriliman]

Why make them suffer? Why not just let them stand apart from him?

Same reason I don't let my child do whatever he wants. If he gets out of hand, unrespectful or unruly he will be punished in order to correct the behavior and improve his wellbeing in the long run.

God punishes and disciplines each individual according to their wrong deeds. He also rewards according to the good things we do as long as we do them sincerely from love.

 

[Chriliman]

By "He won't force anyone to believe", you mean he will appear, by every objective measure to date, to be fictional?

To you, apparently yes. For now

 

[Davian]

To you, apparently yes. For now

But if he is not appearing as fictional to you, he is messing with your free will. Which is it?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Same reason I don't let my child do whatever he wants. If he gets out of hand, unrespectful or unruly he will be punished in order to correct the behavior and improve his wellbeing in the long run.

God punishes and disciplines each individual according to their wrong deeds. He also rewards according to the good things we do as long as we do them sincerely from love.

This is always the worst analogy I see christians using (not just you Chiliman). There are plenty of awful, greedy, sadistic people in this world who do horrible things and relatively nothing bad happens to them. Similarly, there are plenty of great, loving, kind people who wouldn't hurt a fly and their lives are nothing but suffering. If god punishes the bad and rewards the good...we don't see it in this life.

Even worse is that comparison with a father figure that you just made. Would you punish your child forever for not worshiping you? You said you have a child...it's a simple question...would you burn him for not worshiping you? Would you toss him into a pit of fire and tell him that it's his fault he's there because he didn't accept your help in climbing out? If you're going to compare god to a father and mankind to a child...then let's be clear on what kind of father we're talking about.

Why is standing apart from god worthy of punishment? If someone leads a good life, does good to others, but doesn't worship your god....what part of that deserves punishment?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

The good life is owned by the faithful, oxytocinites.

 

[Chriliman]

This is always the worst analogy I see christians using (not just you Chiliman). There are plenty of awful, greedy, sadistic people in this world who do horrible things and relatively nothing bad happens to them.

Does the fact that they do bad things mean they are not suffering immensely inwardly?

Similarly, there are plenty of great, loving, kind people who wouldn't hurt a fly and their lives are nothing but suffering. If god punishes the bad and rewards the good...we don't see it in this life.

Does the fact that they appear to be suffering outwardly mean they are not immensely joyful inwardly?

Even worse is that comparison with a father figure that you just made. Would you punish your child forever for not worshiping you? You said you have a child...it's a simple question...would you burn him for not worshiping you? Would you toss him into a pit of fire and tell him that it's his fault he's there because he didn't accept your help in climbing out? If you're going to compare god to a father and mankind to a child...then let's be clear on what kind of father we're talking about.

Why is standing apart from god worthy of punishment? If someone leads a good life, does good to others, but doesn't worship your god....what part of that deserves punishment?

No one does something bad unless there is some form of suffering before hand, whether it be emotional or physical suffering. The reason they do bad things is because they don't know how to process the suffering they're going through and it only gets worse and worse as they find less and less love and comfort.

Whens someone who's suffering finds love and help in their suffering, they can learn how suffering can actually strengthen them, which would then explain why some people who appear to be suffering are actually joyful and hopeful, inwardly. This is true of many people in third world countries who have faith in God. They appear to be suffering immensely, but their hope is amazing and inspirational.

 

[Belk]

If I write my words down on paper, they become matter.

No, they do not.

 

[Chriliman]

No, they do not.

So if wrote "Hi, Belk!" on a piece of paper and put it in a bottle and tossed it in the ocean and you found it 40yrs later, you wouldn't say "These are the words of Chriliman in the form of ink on paper"

God's word took the form of a man, similar concept.

 

[Davian]

So if wrote "Hi, Belk!" on a piece of paper and put it in a bottle and tossed it in the ocean and you found it 40yrs later, you wouldn't say "These are the words of Chriliman in the form of ink on paper"

No. It could only be claimed that it was written by you. It would then require substantiation.

God's word took the form of a man, similar concept.

How do words take the form of a man? Explain.

 

[Belk]

So if wrote "Hi, Belk!" on a piece of paper and put it in a bottle and tossed it in the ocean and you found it 40yrs later, you wouldn't say "These are the words of Chriliman in the form of ink on paper"

God's word took the form of a man, similar concept.

You can write "Gold" on slips of paper as often as you like, no one will believe you can make a ring out of them. Alchemy was abandoned for a reason after all.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Does the fact that they do bad things mean they are not suffering immensely inwardly?

I don't see any relation. In all likelihood they don't think they're doing wrong at all and it doesn't bother them.

Does the fact that they appear to be suffering outwardly mean they are not immensely joyful inwardly?

Yes, generally speaking...if someone appears to be miserable and suffering...then they're probably miserable and suffering, not "immensely joyful".

No one does something bad unless there is some form of suffering before hand, whether it be emotional or physical suffering.

This is nonsense...you said you have a child right? My guess is that they did they did all kinds of "bad" things without ever having to suffer beforehand. I don't know where you come up with this stuff. It's like someone's imaginary view of a world that doesn't exist.

The reason they do bad things is because they don't know how to process the suffering they're going through and it only gets worse and worse as they find less and less love and comfort.

Ever look at those sweatshops in China? Immense suffering for many many people. So much so that it drives people to suicide (so I've heard). The people who "caused" those places to exist are fully aware of the conditions there. They profit immensely by those conditions, by that suffering, and they don't care. If they did...they could end it all today...but they don't. You think the reason those places exist is because someone is "suffering and doesn't know how to process it"? That's ridiculous. Those places exist because it makes some greedy people boatloads of money...and they aren't suffering at all. My guess is they don't know the true meaning of the word...from the way you describe it, I doubt you do either.

Whens someone who's suffering finds love and help in their suffering, they can learn how suffering can actually strengthen them, which would then explain why some people who appear to be suffering are actually joyful and hopeful, inwardly. This is true of many people in third world countries who have faith in God. They appear to be suffering immensely, but their hope is amazing and inspirational.

Many of those people are ignorant of their condition because it's all they've ever known. They don't know what they've lost, what's been taken from them, what they'll never get back. Perhaps if they weren't so focused on dying and going to someplace better...they would be more focused on solutions to their current situation.

Don't think that I failed to notice that you ignored any difficult questions I asked you in that last post. Would you throw your child into a pit of fire for not worshiping you? Would tell all who asked that it was his fault that he's there? Is that your idea of a "good" father?

 

[Chriliman]

I don't see any relation. In all likelihood they don't think they're doing wrong at all and it doesn't bother them.





Yes, generally speaking...if someone appears to be miserable and suffering...then they're probably miserable and suffering, not "immensely joyful".




This is nonsense...you said you have a child right? My guess is that they did they did all kinds of "bad" things without ever having to suffer beforehand. I don't know where you come up with this stuff. It's like someone's imaginary view of a world that doesn't exist.



Ever look at those sweatshops in China? Immense suffering for many many people. So much so that it drives people to suicide (so I've heard). The people who "caused" those places to exist are fully aware of the conditions there. They profit immensely by those conditions, by that suffering, and they don't care. If they did...they could end it all today...but they don't. You think the reason those places exist is because someone is "suffering and doesn't know how to process it"? That's ridiculous. Those places exist because it makes some greedy people boatloads of money...and they aren't suffering at all. My guess is they don't know the true meaning of the word...from the way you describe it, I doubt you do either.



Many of those people are ignorant of their condition because it's all they've ever known. They don't know what they've lost, what's been taken from them, what they'll never get back. Perhaps if they weren't so focused on dying and going to someplace better...they would be more focused on solutions to their current situation.

Don't think that I failed to notice that you ignored any difficult questions I asked you in that last post. Would you throw your child into a pit of fire for not worshiping you? Would tell all who asked that it was his fault that he's there? Is that your idea of a "good" father?

The love of money definitely causes a lot of suffering, you're right there.

My point is that children who are abused or neglected experience evil suffering in their childhood and its this suffering that is the root cause of their disobedience that leads to criminal activity, which in turn causes even more evil suffering.

Had the parents started by loving them and punishing them correctly, causing good suffering which strengthens them and corrects them, then the child would be less likely to disobey or become a criminal.

That's how I view God. He inflicts good suffering in order to teach and refine and build up. Some evil men inflict evil suffering which only tears down and destroys and God allows this because he has given man dominion over the earth and He will rebuild what man has destroyed.

You seem to want to believe that God is an evil entity who only wants to watch people burn in hell. Just understand that I believe the complete opposite. God loves to give life and hates death. Problem is many refuse to accept the life He wants to give, therefore He inflicts good suffering in the hope that man will learn what is good and right, which is God and life. God wants us to focus on life, helping and loving others and not on death.

 

[Davian]

The love of money definitely causes a lot of suffering, you're right there.

My point is that children who are abused or neglected experience evil suffering in their childhood and its this suffering that is the root cause of their disobedience that leads to criminal activity, which in turn causes even more evil suffering.

Had the parents started by loving them and punishing them correctly, causing good suffering which strengthens them and corrects them, then the child would be less likely to disobey or become a criminal.

That's how I view God. He inflicts good suffering in order to teach and refine and build up.

Interesting. What do you think a child learns, for example, from dying in childbirth?

Some evil men inflict evil suffering which only tears down and destroys and God allows this because he has given man dominion over the earth and He will rebuild what man has destroyed.

Do you have a date for that, Mr Camping?

You seem to want to believe that God is an evil entity who only wants to watch people burn in hell. Just understand that I believe the complete opposite. God loves to give life and hates death.

Hypothetically, if your god is real, it would seem that the majority of individuals would be going to Hell. Such a loving god.

Problem is many refuse to accept the life He wants to give,

I have not seen a coherent example of this offer, demonstrated as real and not simply wishful thinking. Can you clarify?

therefore He inflicts good suffering in the hope that man will learn what is good and right, which is God and life. God wants us to focus on life, helping and loving others and not on death.

Why can't this allegedly all-powerful all-knowing thing get what it wants, without the need for all the suffering?

 

[Cearbhall]

By itself the first category of arguments would only support a deistic god, while the second category, depending on the specifics, might support a variety of types of gods. When you take both together, you get something closer to the Christian concept of God.

This is very important, and I've tried to get a similar point across to many people on here. I often find someone saying something like "Something can't come from nothing" and then expecting me to wind up a Christian. There's a ridiculously large gap between arguments that support the existence of some greater power and the evidence that would be needed to prove that the Bible/Christianity is the exact truth of the matter.

Do you see the problem there? By all appearances, you are working backwards to a conclusion that you already hold to be true.

Yep. That's another aspect of the same logical flaw that I see all the time on here. "Something must have done it, so the Christian God must have done it." That doesn't make any sense unless you're already biased in favor of that conclusion.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The love of money definitely causes a lot of suffering, you're right there.

My point is that children who are abused or neglected experience evil suffering in their childhood and its this suffering that is the root cause of their disobedience that leads to criminal activity, which in turn causes even more evil suffering.

Had the parents started by loving them and punishing them correctly, causing good suffering which strengthens them and corrects them, then the child would be less likely to disobey or become a criminal.

That's how I view God. He inflicts good suffering in order to teach and refine and build up. Some evil men inflict evil suffering which only tears down and destroys and God allows this because he has given man dominion over the earth and He will rebuild what man has destroyed.

You seem to want to believe that God is an evil entity who only wants to watch people burn in hell. Just understand that I believe the complete opposite. God loves to give life and hates death. Problem is many refuse to accept the life He wants to give, therefore He inflicts good suffering in the hope that man will learn what is good and right, which is God and life. God wants us to focus on life, helping and loving others and not on death.

I'll try to simplify this for you...

Did I create hell?
Do I decide who deserves to go to hell?

If it's not me...then who does?

 

[Chriliman]

I'll try to simplify this for you...

Did I create hell?
Do I decide who deserves to go to hell?

If it's not me...then who does?

No and no.

Our sin created hell and we sin because we don't listen to God, who can free us from our sin and give us life free from sin and death.

I don't know what hell will be like after death, nor do I want to know, but it could be a severe refining fire which purifies even the worst of us, idk. I'd rather follow God in this life so I don't have to find out.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No and no.

Our sin created hell and we sin because we don't listen to God, who can free us from our sin and give us life free from sin and death.

I don't know what hell will be like after death, nor do I want to know, but it could be a severe refining fire which purifies even the worst of us, idk. I'd rather follow God in this life so I don't have to find out.

Explain that again? Our sin created hell? So Satan was still a friend of god when mankind showed up?

There's only one creator in all of christianity and that's god. If hell exists, god created it. Let's not dance around that idea just because you don't like it.

At least you've already answered my next question...people go to hell for not worshiping god.

So now that we've got all that established...back to your father analogy...

You think a good father is one who sends his children to hell for not worshiping him?

 

[Chriliman]

Explain that again? Our sin created hell? So Satan was still a friend of god when mankind showed up?

There's only one creator in all of christianity and that's god. If hell exists, god created it. Let's not dance around that idea just because you don't like it.

At least you've already answered my next question...people go to hell for not worshiping god.

So now that we've got all that established...back to your father analogy...

You think a good father is one who sends his children to hell for not worshiping him?

When I said "our" I meant all created beings. Yes there was a heavenly battle before man was created. God created man as a part of his plan to destroy the powers of darkness, which include Satan and his angels. Yes God is the reason we're even capable of sinning in the first place, therefore it makes sense that He would provide a way to be freed from our sin.