Defining God in Theistic Arguments

[Chriliman]

Interesting. What do you think a child learns, for example, from dying in childbirth?

I don't understand how the question relates to what I said.

Why can't this allegedly all-powerful all-knowing thing get what it wants, without the need for all the suffering?

This is like asking why a child can't learn to behave on his own. If the parent wants their child to behave, they will do everything they can to get the child to behave, including inflicting good suffering on the child, which will benefit the child in the long run. The more patience and consistency the parents have, the better off the child will be.

If you disagree with the above then I understand how you can't comprehend that God would act in this same way towards His own creation. Inflicting good suffering on people so they will act more like Him. Encouraging them to give of themselves to help others who are still under the powers of darkness.

He first gave His son over to the powers of darkness in order to destroy the powers because God ultimately has power over life and death and He's gently teaching us how He has destroyed the powers of darkness and restored life everlasting through His resurrected Son who is alive in the hearts of God's people.

You can think this all a neat story, but just because you think that does not mean the story is going away anytime soon. In fact it will only strengthen and cause everyone to question what they believe is true.

 

[Chriliman]

But if he is not appearing as fictional to you, he is messing with your free will. Which is it?

It's possible that I lack understanding, which could be why I believe God is real. It's also possible that you lack understanding, which is why you believe God is fictional.

Either way, I've demonstrated that I do have adequate understanding. It's then up to you to accept that my understanding is evidence that I'm correct in what I say.

It's seems you'd rather jump to the conclusion that I must be wrong in what I say because it conflicts with what you believe to be true.

 

[Davian]

It's possible that I lack understanding, which could be why I believe God is real. It's also possible that you lack understanding, which is why you believe God is fictional.

Either way, I've demonstrated that I do have adequate understanding. It's then up to you to accept that my understanding is evidence that I'm correct in what I say.

It's seems you'd rather jump to the conclusion that I must be wrong in what I say because it conflicts with what you believe to be true.

Where have you demonstrated that you have an adequate understanding? By whose standards?

 

[Chriliman]

Where have you demonstrated that you have an adequate understanding? By whose standards?

Exactly! Who's standard should we follow? Our own standard or the right standard? I'd hope you would agree that we should follow the right standard that leads to the truth. Whether we can accept the truth or not is up to each individual.

 

[Davian]

Exactly! Who's standard should we follow? Our own standard or the right standard? I'd hope you would agree that we should follow the right standard that leads to the truth. Whether we can accept the truth or not is up to each individual.

So where have you demonstrated that you have an adequate understanding? What are your standards?

 

[Davian]

I don't understand how the question relates to what I said.

It was just an example of suffering, and we are to learn from that. What do you think dying during childbirth teaches us, or the child, or the mother that may die with the child?

This is like asking why a child can't learn to behave on his own.

Why can't they, by interacting with their environment and others beside their parents?

If the parent wants their child to behave, they will do everything they can to get the child to behave, including inflicting good suffering on the child, which will benefit the child in the long run. The more patience and consistency the parents have, the better off the child will be.

Indeed. I know my parents were present, and real, and not relegated to being characters in books.

If you disagree with the above then I understand how you can't comprehend that God would act in this same way towards His own creation. Inflicting good suffering on people so they will act more like Him. Encouraging them to give of themselves to help others who are still under the powers of darkness.

How does this happen by God appearing to be fictional?

He first gave His son over to the powers of darkness in order to destroy the powers because God ultimately has power over life and death and He's gently teaching us how He has destroyed the powers of darkness and restored life everlasting through His resurrected Son who is alive in the hearts of God's people.

So gently, it is like he is not there at all.

You can think this all a neat story, but just because you think that does not mean the story is going away anytime soon. In fact it will only strengthen and cause everyone to question what they believe is true.

Just one of many varied and contradictory 'neat stories' that all claim to be true. I don't find any of them to be compelling.

 

[Chriliman]

So where have you demonstrated that you have an adequate understanding? What are your standards?

My standard is to try and understand other's and admit when I'm wrong and teach other's what I've learned from being wrong a lot and admitting it.

Through seeking to understand in a humble way, I've come to realize that only God can provide the correct understanding of the world I live in and I've learned to trust His word through what I've experienced along the way.

 

[Ana the Ist]

When I said "our" I meant all created beings. Yes there was a heavenly battle before man was created. God created man as a part of his plan to destroy the powers of darkness, which include Satan and his angels. Yes God is the reason we're even capable of sinning in the first place, therefore it makes sense that He would provide a way to be freed from our sin.

So back to the question you're ignoring...

You think a good father is one who sends his children to hell for not worshiping him?

 

[Chriliman]

So back to the question you're ignoring...

You think a good father is one who sends his children to hell for not worshiping him?

You're mixing the ideas of a human father with God as the Father and it's a little confusing.

If the intention of a loving father is to save his son from death by putting him through hell(much suffering), then yes, I would expect a loving father to do this in order to save his son from death.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You're mixing the ideas of a human father with God as the Father and it's a little confusing.

If the intention of a loving father is to save his son from death by putting him through hell(much suffering), then yes, I would expect a loving father to do this in order to save his son from death.

In other words, you'd rather be in agonizing pain than not exist...

Remember when I said I don't think you know about suffering? This is what I meant.

 

[Chriliman]

In other words, you'd rather be in agonizing pain than not exist...

I'd rather experience suffering and live rather than not live at all, so yes.

Remember when I said I don't think you know about suffering? This is what I meant.

Sure, but what you think is true about me has no bearing on what is actually true about me. I could tell you about the sufferings I've endured, but even if I described them in detail, you wouldn't experience exactly what I experienced.

 

[Chriliman]

In other words, you'd rather be in agonizing pain than not exist...

Remember when I said I don't think you know about suffering? This is what I meant.

If you know what it's like to have no hope in anything, then you have an idea of what suffering is.

 

[Davian]

My standard is to try and understand other's and admit when I'm wrong and teach other's what I've learned from being wrong a lot and admitting it.

Through seeking to understand in a humble way, I've come to realize that only God can provide the correct understanding of the world I live in and I've learned to trust His word through what I've experienced along the way.

That's nice, but I asked, where have you demonstrated that you have an adequate understanding? What are your standards?