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Defining Christianity

Ran77

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We are up to three essential doctrines so far. Allow me to repost them.

1) Only those who are reborn of water and spirit can enter the kingdom of God. (John 3: 3)

2) Those who confess Jesus and believe in their hearts that God raised him from the dead will be saved. (Romans 10: 9)

3) Only those who do the will of Heavenly Father shall enter the kingdom of God. (Matthew 7: 21)


I would like to see more of these.


:)
 
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Ran77

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Here is a link showing some versions of essential doctrines claimed by various Christian groups, but it does not explain why each group selected those particular doctrines as essential.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chrcarddoc1.htm

This is a good link. The problem is I can't interact with the link and have it provide support for any of the material.

Living by the Word lists five doctrines a person must believe in order to be saved.

1. The deity of Jesus Christ.
2. Jesus' bodily resurrection from the dead.
3. The Trinity.
4. Christ's vicarious atonement for man's sin.
5. Salvation by grace alone through faith.


The site also lists beliefs still shared by the Roman Catholic church and most Protestant churches.

1. God the Son is of the same substance and nature of the Father.
2. The Trinity.
3. Jesus if fully God and fully human.

However there was a considerably larger list of items they don't agree on.

1. The Body and Blood of Christ are present in the Eucharist.
2. Apostolic succession.
3. Beliefs are grounded in both the Bible and church tradition.
4. The Holy Spirit guides the church away from error.
5. The effects of baptism.
6. People are saved by faith and grace.
7. Salvation can be achieved and later lost.
8. Baptism of infants.
9. The apocryphal books.
10. The clergy is restricted to males.
11. The Pope is the head of the church.
12. Canonization and veneration of Saints.
13. Effectiveness of prayers of deceased Saints.
14. Confession of sin to a priest.
15. Penance is needed after sinning.
16. Purgatory as the destination for many people after death.
17. Prayers for the dead are effective.
18. The Seven Sacraments: baptism, confirmation, confession, communion, marriage, holy orders, extreme unction.
19. Veneration of the Virgin Mary.
20. Liturgical workshop.
21. Images are useful aides to worship.


That is a lot of difference. Are they enough to consider one church Christian and the other not-Christian? How many does it take before that is a valid determination? Which of the supposedly essential doctrines are needed to make that determination? And, of course, is there any actual scriptural support that failure to believe a specific doctrine will either define you as a non-Christian or prevent your salvation? (In some cases we have already seen that a person must believe certain concepts in order to be saved.)

:)
 
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Tree of Life

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I'm going to try this again. Thanks go to serious for helping phrase the OP so it will fit within the forum guidelines.

Many denominations use a statement of faith or some sort of creed to determine who is and who is not a Christian. One of the most common of these is the Nicene Creed, but it is far from the only one. While each aspect of the creed can be shown to have been drawn from an interpretation of a section of scripture, what seems to be missing is specific scriptural support for the concepts that are presented as an essential aspect of Christianity. Is there any scriptural support for a specific selection of core beliefs, or specific interpretations of these verses, which define what is necessary for salvation as opposed to simply ancillary beliefs which are left open for the individual and various denominations to interpret?

:)

For me I think that the Westminster Standards is the finest system of doctrine that we've been able to produce so far. It does not detail a "bare minimum" requirement of belief for salvation. Rather it seeks to expound a system of doctrine that aligns with all the Bible has to say.

In terms of a "bare minimum" I would say that "Jesus is Lord" is probably sufficient so long as each one of those three words is properly understood.
 
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Ran77

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The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)

ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)

Since there has been little provided for me to work with I am going back to the Nicene Creed and check the next couple of items to see if they are truly essential doctrines.

1 John 4: 15

15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

17. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


A person who confesses Jesus will have God dwell within him and this results in a boldness on the day of judgment.

That echoes what we have already discussed in relation to Romans 10: 9. The verse in Romans does have two parts though; a) confessing Jesus and b) believing that Jesus has been resurrected. When comparing it to this verse I think it is reasonable to conclude that Romans 10: 9 reflects two essential doctrines rather than a single compound doctrine. Meaning confessing Jesus and believing He was resurrected would only be effective if done in unison.


Deuteronomy 6: 4

1. Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the Lord your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:

2. That thou mightest fear the Lord thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son’s son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

3. Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.

4. Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

I have included additional verses because they have an impact on the topic. While knowing the nature of God is important, the problem with these verses are that they don't mention anything about salvation. If a person keeps His commandments then their days will be prolonged, "it" will be well with them, and that they may have increase in the land of milk and honey. In other words, good things happen to the people who keep God's commandments.

The other problem is in defining what it means to be "one Lord." This passage simply does not do that.


Ephesians 4: 6

3. Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

4. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Again, I have included additional verses to help understand the key passage. And again, while knowing the nature of God is important, the problem with these verses are they don't mention anything about salvation being dependent upon knowing or believing that there is one Lord.

The second problem with this is verse 3 specifically mentions a unity of spirit rather than addressing the individual nature of God. Meaning we are all one. If one was being used as a literal measurement then there would only be a single baptism that applied to all people everywhere. I could argue how Jesus told the disciples about my father and your father, my God and your God as a proof against the sort of unity you are attempting to establish, but that isn't the topic. My comment really needs to go no further than pointing out that there is no mention of salvation being dependent upon believing that Jesus and Heavenly Father are one in the same entity.



:)
 
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Ran77

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For me I think that the Westminster Standards is the finest system of doctrine that we've been able to produce so far. It does not detail a "bare minimum" requirement of belief for salvation. Rather it seeks to expound a system of doctrine that aligns with all the Bible has to say.

In terms of a "bare minimum" I would say that "Jesus is Lord" is probably sufficient so long as each one of those three words is properly understood.


Would you say that "confessing Jesus" fits that bare minimum?


:)
 
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Tree of Life

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Would you say that "confessing Jesus" fits that bare minimum?


:)
Basically. So long as "confessing Jesus" means "confessing that Jesus (the historical one encountered in the NT who died for sins) is Lord (and we owe him allegiance)". If that confession is genuine then it'd be hard to say that the person was not a Christian.
 
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Ran77

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Basically. So long as "confessing Jesus" means "confessing that Jesus (the historical one encountered in the NT who died for sins) is Lord (and we owe him allegiance)". If that confession is genuine then it'd be hard to say that the person was not a Christian.

I'm not sure I understand the difference between a historical Jesus and whatever is the other option.


:scratch:
 
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Tree of Life

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I'm not sure I understand the difference between a historical Jesus and whatever is the other option.


:scratch:

By historical Jesus I mean that real Jesus - the one who actually lived, whom we encounter in the NT, and who lives today in the presence of the Father. Another option would be a Jesus fashioned in our own image who has no foundation in Scripture.
 
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Ran77

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By historical Jesus I mean that real Jesus - the one who actually lived, whom we encounter in the NT, and who lives today in the presence of the Father. Another option would be a Jesus fashioned in our own image who has no foundation in Scripture.

When I hear this it usually means, the Jesus as I (whomever is speaking) understand Him to be and not the way anyone else might understand Him. Since you bring up the "Historic Jesus" please provide the historical facts which would identify which beliefs are accurate and which are not.


:)
 
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Tree of Life

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When I hear this it usually means, the Jesus as I (whomever is speaking) understand Him to be and not the way anyone else might understand Him. Since you bring up the "Historic Jesus" please provide the historical facts which would identify which beliefs are accurate and which are not.


:)
Whatever the New Testament says about him.
 
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Sojourner1

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This is a non-answer. I expect this sort of a response when real scriptural support is unavailable.


:)

There are plenty of Scriptures that help to define who a Christian is. The entire New Testament explains who is really saved and who isn't. If you really want to know who a Christian is then read the entire New Testament with a clear mind that isn't influenced by what other religions say about Jesus. Jesus said the the sheep hear His voice and they know Him. He also said that there are people who will say that they served Him, but he never knew them. Jesus knows His sheep, and they know Him. The Holy Spirit testifies to a person of their salvation, which is why we are to test the Spirits. We are to test anything that is taught about Jesus or God or the Holy Spirit that contradicts the Word of God. We aren't to listen to any prophet that teaches something that contradicts the Scriptures.
 
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Tree of Life

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That is a non-answer.


:(

Why is it a non-answer? Seems fairly specific to me. The New Testament is a very concrete set of documents that can easily be accessed and read. Furthermore this answer shows that I hold the NT to be historically accurate and am not coming from a critical and liberal position. What about this fails to answer your question?
 
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fatboys

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Why is it a non-answer? Seems fairly specific to me. The New Testament is a very concrete set of documents that can easily be accessed and read. Furthermore this answer shows that I hold the NT to be historically accurate and am not coming from a critical and liberal position. What about this fails to answer your question?
What do you consider as concrete documentation. No one followed Jesus around and wrote down what he said. Can oral traditions be as accurate as actual words at the time it be said?
 
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Jane_Doe

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There are plenty of Scriptures that help to define who a Christian is. The entire New Testament explains who is really saved and who isn't. If you really want to know who a Christian is then read the entire New Testament with a clear mind that isn't influenced by what other religions say about Jesus. Jesus said the the sheep hear His voice and they know Him. He also said that there are people who will say that they served Him, but he never knew them. Jesus knows His sheep, and they know Him. The Holy Spirit testifies to a person of their salvation, which is why we are to test the Spirits. We are to test anything that is taught about Jesus or God or the Holy Spirit that contradicts the Word of God. We aren't to listen to any prophet that teaches something that contradicts the Scriptures.

What if, upon thorough scripture study, someone concludes something different than what is professed by other people's stated beliefs?

(This is an honest question, not goading)
 
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Butch5

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I'm going to try this again. Thanks go to serious for helping phrase the OP so it will fit within the forum guidelines.

Many denominations use a statement of faith or some sort of creed to determine who is and who is not a Christian. One of the most common of these is the Nicene Creed, but it is far from the only one. While each aspect of the creed can be shown to have been drawn from an interpretation of a section of scripture, what seems to be missing is specific scriptural support for the concepts that are presented as an essential aspect of Christianity. Is there any scriptural support for a specific selection of core beliefs, or specific interpretations of these verses, which define what is necessary for salvation as opposed to simply ancillary beliefs which are left open for the individual and various denominations to interpret?

:)


30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (Jn. 20:1 KJV)

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3:1 KJV)
 
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Ran77

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There are plenty of Scriptures that help to define who a Christian is. The entire New Testament explains who is really saved and who isn't. If you really want to know who a Christian is then read the entire New Testament with a clear mind that isn't influenced by what other religions say about Jesus. Jesus said the the sheep hear His voice and they know Him. He also said that there are people who will say that they served Him, but he never knew them. Jesus knows His sheep, and they know Him. The Holy Spirit testifies to a person of their salvation, which is why we are to test the Spirits. We are to test anything that is taught about Jesus or God or the Holy Spirit that contradicts the Word of God. We aren't to listen to any prophet that teaches something that contradicts the Scriptures.

If there are plenty of scriptures that define who is a Christian it shouldn't be a problem to post a couple of them here. Otherwise, this is the second non-answer in a row.


:(
 
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Ran77

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Why is it a non-answer? Seems fairly specific to me. The New Testament is a very concrete set of documents that can easily be accessed and read. Furthermore this answer shows that I hold the NT to be historically accurate and am not coming from a critical and liberal position. What about this fails to answer your question?

Are you serious? It seems "specific" to you? What is specific about telling a person that the New Testament is the counter to what I offered? There is nothing specific about it at all. Nor does it explain how it counters what I offered. This is an apologetics forum. The way apologetics works is an argument is presented on one side and the other defends their beliefs. Both sides are expected to supply support for their arguments with statements of logic or scriptural passages and an explanation of how those actually demonstrate their point. Claiming that the New Testament answers all my questions is a copout. And anyone who has to have this concept explained to them probably shouldn't be participating in apologetics.


:(
 
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