Define Reasonable Suspicion

[Douger]

Ah, I see. So you believe someone's race should be used as "reasonable suspicion"?

In upholding this law, yes.

So as long as you "look Mexican" you can be hauled to the side and required to show identification? So my several Filipino friends who, themselves, admit they look rather "Mexican" should be requested this as well?

In upholding this law, yes.

Last I checked, when stopped on the street you are only required in most places to give your name (perhaps your address). You are not required to have your ID or proof of citizenship with you. So are we going to make it a special requirement for SOME citizens to always carry it with them?

In upholding this law, yes.

Now bear in mind that I do not think this is a good law, in fact I have very liberal views regarding immigration.
But when it comes to reasonable suspicion for apprehending an illegal immigrant, think about it, racially profiling makes perfect sense.

 

[Steve Petersen]

After all, how many asians are sneaking across the border with Mexico? Or Europeans...

If a criminal is described as a 'tall white male', why would police bother stopping anyone who doesn't fit that profile?

Now, we have millions of Mexicans coming across the border illegally, but we can't use a racial profile trying to apprehend them? Insane!

 

[tulc]

After all, how many asians are sneaking across the border with Mexico? Or Europeans...

If a criminal is described as a 'tall white male', why would police bother stopping anyone who doesn't fit that profile?

Now, we have millions of Mexicans coming across the border illegally, but we can't use a racial profile trying to apprehend them? Insane!

Steve, when was the last time you were stopped while walking somewhere and asked to show some ID?
tulc(thinks a rough estimate will do)

 

[Steve Petersen]

Steve, when was the last time you were stopped while walking somewhere and asked to show some ID?
tulc(thinks a rough estimate will do)

Arizona did not give authorities the right to stop and ask for ID on a whim. Only secondarily.

Nice try.

BTW, here is a list of countries Identity Card policies.

 

[tulc]

Arizona did not give authorities the right to stop and ask for ID on a whim. Only secondarily.

Nice try.

BTW, here is a list of countries Identity Card policies.

So that's a "never"?
tulc(just wondering)

 

[allhart]

After all, how many asians are sneaking across the border with Mexico? Or Europeans...

If a criminal is described as a 'tall white male', why would police bother stopping anyone who doesn't fit that profile?

Now, we have millions of Mexicans coming across the border illegally, but we can't use a racial profile trying to apprehend them? Insane!

They have lost their common sense over PC or whatever

 

[Steve Petersen]

I have been asked to show ID during a traffic stop.

How many legal immigrants to the US have been stopped on the street and asked for ID without probable cause?

I have been asked for ID when applying for a job, writing a check, entering and leaving military bases...

 

[allhart]

I'm working with a guy who came over illegally and have a best friend that did as well. One is a citizen now the other has his green card. Both speak English real well and have accumulated. Both are nice kind loving people and friends, but agree with Border control hmmm now ain't that strange! Wonder why that is lol! Maybe because they want to persevere and protect their way of life/families!

 

[Nathan Poe]

Arizona did not give authorities the right to stop and ask for ID on a whim. Only secondarily.

Sure, now it's secondary -- that's pat of the law which lad to be amended.

 

[tulc]

I'm working with a guy who came over illegally and have a best friend that did as well. One is a citizen now the other has his green card. Both speak English real well and have accumulated. Both are nice kind loving people and friends, but agree with Border control hmmm now ain't that strange! Wonder why that is lol! Maybe because they want to persevere and protect their way of life/families! (emph. added)

Why would that be strange? They have theirs now, why would they care about those who follow after them?
tulc(sounds very American of them)

 

[tulc]

I have been asked to show ID during a traffic stop.

But did you get stopped just to show your ID?

How many legal immigrants to the US have been stopped on the street and asked for ID without probable cause?

That's a pretty good question actually.

I have been asked for ID when applying for a job, writing a check, entering and leaving military bases...

So on average, what, five, six times a day would you say?
tulc(still trying to get a ball park figure here)

 

[Macx]

Steve, when was the last time you were stopped while walking somewhere and asked to show some ID?
tulc(thinks a rough estimate will do)

It has been about 20 years. It started as a Terry Search, but then they also wanted to run my ID for warrants. Changes in my hairstyle and wardrobe brought such police encounters to an abrupt stop. I even have a funny driving story, where I got pulled over twice in one night and let off both times, but only after I let the officers search my car & person. Back then I was like most Americans and pretty clueless about my 4A rights. I relize you (tulc) weren't adressing the question to me, but it is a fun question so I thought I'd answer.

 

[tulc]

It has been about 20 years. It started as a Terry Search, but then they also wanted to run my ID for warrants. Changes in my hairstyle and wardrobe brought such police encounters to an abrupt stop. I even have a funny driving story, where I got pulled over twice in one night and let off both times, but only after I let the officers search my car & person. Back then I was like most Americans and pretty clueless about my 4A rights. I relize you (tulc) weren't adressing the question to me, but it is a fun question so I thought I'd answer.

Hitch hiking in Orange County California, the early 70's. Freshly/nearly married looking for work, no car and unused to the bus system out there. Long hair hippy. Getting asked for ID was the least of my troubles back then!
tulc(man was it hot!)

 

[LUColt27]

Started this because of some of the phrasing I've seen on forums and heard in debates on TV involving this new Arizona law:

Other than seeing illegal immigrants crossing the border, what is "reasonable suspicion" that someone is an illegal immigrant?

Running from the police is often a good sign, but then again, many people do that anyway. Failing to obey regular traffic laws as well as compromising the safety of others in the vehicle is at least cause to get pulled over. Cramming far more people into a vehicle than said vehicle was meant to hold (anything over 6 in a car or in a truck, 10 in a minivan, and 15 in a full size van) also gives oneself away.

 

[Macx]

Hitch hiking in Orange County California, the early 70's. Freshly/nearly married looking for work, no car and unused to the bus system out there. Long hair hippy. Getting asked for ID was the least of my troubles back then!
tulc(man was it hot!)

Right on, sounds like we traveled in some of the same circles back in the ancient past.

Okay, I gotta share: The first time pulled over that night, I'd been playing on a twisty road in my sporty car. Cop tried to catch me (without the cherries), but I was always around the next corner & he couldn't get a radar fix on me. It was dark, all I knew was some idiot was trying to catch up to me, figured it was some bevis in a camaro. So I see the headlights in my rearview veer way off into the field a couple of times like whoever lost the back end and he is still coming. Up the ridge I go, to the sharp left and (I am figuring oh no, only a cop would still be trying) and I shut it down to the speed limit (crest of the hill the speed limit drops from 55 to 30, I hadn't let my speedo drop below 80 at any point on the road and was higher than that in places). Cop crests the hill and makes the left and there I am poking along. He almost put his bumper in my back seat trying to get that cruiser down to 30. Then the cherries come on. So now the story gets entertaining - I had two thermos (ish! what is the plural of thermos) in plain view, one of coffee and one of espresso. He takes my ID, makes me get out for a pat down and asks for consent to search, I of course (being young and dumb) let him (wasn't like there was anything you couldn't see through the windows, I'd gutted the car Rally style) so he gets to the thermos with the espresso and asks what is in it. I say "Espresso" and he says "Espresso, what is that?!? does it have alcohol in it?" to which I replied "It is espresso" . . I think he must have called in what espresso is when he went back to the cruiser, he let me go straight away after that.

 

[tulc]

Right on, sounds like we traveled in some of the same circles back in the ancient past.

Okay, I gotta share: The first time pulled over that night, I'd been playing on a twisty road in my sporty car. Cop tried to catch me (without the cherries), but I was always around the next corner & he couldn't get a radar fix on me. It was dark, all I knew was some idiot was trying to catch up to me, figured it was some bevis in a camaro. So I see the headlights in my rearview veer way off into the field a couple of times like whoever lost the back end and he is still coming. Up the ridge I go, to the sharp left and (I am figuring oh no, only a cop would still be trying) and I shut it down to the speed limit (crest of the hill the speed limit drops from 55 to 30, I hadn't let my speedo drop below 80 at any point on the road and was higher than that in places). Cop crests the hill and makes the left and there I am poking along. He almost put his bumper in my back seat trying to get that cruiser down to 30. Then the cherries come on. So now the story gets entertaining - I had two thermos (ish! what is the plural of thermos) in plain view, one of coffee and one of espresso. He takes my ID, makes me get out for a pat down and asks for consent to search, I of course (being young and dumb) let him (wasn't like there was anything you couldn't see through the windows, I'd gutted the car Rally style) so he gets to the thermos with the espresso and asks what is in it. I say "Espresso" and he says "Espresso, what is that?!? does it have alcohol in it?" to which I replied "It is espresso" . . I think he must have called in what espresso is when he went back to the cruiser, he let me go straight away after that.

Ahhh! See? Another person saved by espresso! Gods gift to a fallen world!
tulc(thank you Imam Shazuli!)

 

[Willtor]

Right on, sounds like we traveled in some of the same circles back in the ancient past.

Okay, I gotta share: The first time pulled over that night, I'd been playing on a twisty road in my sporty car. Cop tried to catch me (without the cherries), but I was always around the next corner & he couldn't get a radar fix on me. It was dark, all I knew was some idiot was trying to catch up to me, figured it was some bevis in a camaro. So I see the headlights in my rearview veer way off into the field a couple of times like whoever lost the back end and he is still coming. Up the ridge I go, to the sharp left and (I am figuring oh no, only a cop would still be trying) and I shut it down to the speed limit (crest of the hill the speed limit drops from 55 to 30, I hadn't let my speedo drop below 80 at any point on the road and was higher than that in places). Cop crests the hill and makes the left and there I am poking along. He almost put his bumper in my back seat trying to get that cruiser down to 30. Then the cherries come on. So now the story gets entertaining - I had two thermos (ish! what is the plural of thermos) in plain view, one of coffee and one of espresso. He takes my ID, makes me get out for a pat down and asks for consent to search, I of course (being young and dumb) let him (wasn't like there was anything you couldn't see through the windows, I'd gutted the car Rally style) so he gets to the thermos with the espresso and asks what is in it. I say "Espresso" and he says "Espresso, what is that?!? does it have alcohol in it?" to which I replied "It is espresso" . . I think he must have called in what espresso is when he went back to the cruiser, he let me go straight away after that.

Haha! What an a great story!

My Dad has one about his time at Yale. He wasn't present, but he had a group of friends who made a huge poster that said something to the effect of "Franco '75, Harvard '76" and hung it over a billboard the night before a big game. They were caught in the act by the campus police and the officer's question was something like, "Okay... Which one of you is Franco?"

 

[variant]

Started this because of some of the phrasing I've seen on forums and heard in debates on TV involving this new Arizona law:

Other than seeing illegal immigrants crossing the border, what is "reasonable suspicion" that someone is an illegal immigrant?

The law itself pretty roundly defines situations that would be considered reasonable suspicion, and it is written in such a way that such suspicion would happen mainly during prosecution of other crimes.

For instance:

Here is what it has to say about vehicles that pull over to hire people.

6 A. IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR AN OCCUPANT OF A MOTOR VEHICLE THAT IS STOPPED
7 ON A STREET, ROADWAY OR HIGHWAY TO ATTEMPT TO HIRE OR HIRE AND PICK UP
8 PASSENGERS FOR WORK AT A DIFFERENT LOCATION IF THE MOTOR VEHICLE BLOCKS OR
9 IMPEDES THE NORMAL MOVEMENT OF TRAFFIC.
10 B. IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR A PERSON TO ENTER A MOTOR VEHICLE THAT IS
11 STOPPED ON A STREET, ROADWAY OR HIGHWAY IN ORDER TO BE HIRED BY AN OCCUPANT
12 OF THE MOTOR VEHICLE AND TO BE TRANSPORTED TO WORK AT A DIFFERENT LOCATION IF
13 THE MOTOR VEHICLE BLOCKS OR IMPEDES THE NORMAL MOVEMENT OF TRAFFIC.
14 C. IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR A PERSON WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED
15 STATES AND WHO IS AN UNAUTHORIZED ALIEN TO KNOWINGLY APPLY FOR WORK, SOLICIT
16 WORK IN A PUBLIC PLACE OR PERFORM WORK AS AN EMPLOYEE OR INDEPENDENT
17 CONTRACTOR IN THIS STATE.
18 D. A VIOLATION OF THIS SECTION IS A CLASS 1 MISDEMEANOR.
19 E. FOR THE PURPOSES OF THIS SECTION:
20 1. "SOLICIT" MEANS VERBAL OR NONVERBAL COMMUNICATION BY A GESTURE OR A
21 NOD THAT WOULD INDICATE TO A REASONABLE PERSON THAT A PERSON IS WILLING TO BE
22 EMPLOYED.
23 2. "UNAUTHORIZED ALIEN" MEANS AN ALIEN WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE LEGAL
24 RIGHT OR AUTHORIZATION UNDER FEDERAL LAW TO WORK IN THE UNITED STATES AS
25 DESCRIBED IN 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1324a(h)(3).
26 13-2929. Unlawful transporting, moving, concealing, harboring
27 or shielding of unlawful aliens; vehicle
28 impoundment; classification
29 A. IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR A PERSON WHO IS IN VIOLATION OF A CRIMINAL
30 OFFENSE TO:
31 1. TRANSPORT OR MOVE OR ATTEMPT TO TRANSPORT OR MOVE AN ALIEN IN THIS
32 STATE IN A MEANS OF TRANSPORTATION IF THE PERSON KNOWS OR RECKLESSLY
33 DISREGARDS THE FACT THAT THE ALIEN HAS COME TO, HAS ENTERED OR REMAINS IN THE
34 UNITED STATES IN VIOLATION OF LAW.
35 2. CONCEAL, HARBOR OR SHIELD OR ATTEMPT TO CONCEAL, HARBOR OR SHIELD
36 AN ALIEN FROM DETECTION IN ANY PLACE IN THIS STATE, INCLUDING ANY BUILDING OR
37 ANY MEANS OF TRANSPORTATION, IF THE PERSON KNOWS OR RECKLESSLY DISREGARDS THE
38 FACT THAT THE ALIEN HAS COME TO, HAS ENTERED OR REMAINS IN THE UNITED STATES
39 IN VIOLATION OF LAW.
40 3. ENCOURAGE OR INDUCE AN ALIEN TO COME TO OR RESIDE IN THIS STATE IF
41 THE PERSON KNOWS OR RECKLESSLY DISREGARDS THE FACT THAT SUCH COMING TO,
42 ENTERING OR RESIDING IN THIS STATE IS OR WILL BE IN VIOLATION OF LAW.
43 B. A MEANS OF TRANSPORTATION THAT IS USED IN THE COMMISSION OF A
44 VIOLATION OF THIS SECTION IS SUBJECT TO MANDATORY VEHICLE IMMOBILIZATION OR
45 IMPOUNDMENT PURSUANT TO SECTION 28-3511.
S.B. 1070
- 6 -
1 C. A PERSON WHO VIOLATES THIS SECTION IS GUILTY OF A CLASS 1
2 MISDEMEANOR AND IS SUBJECT TO A FINE OF AT LEAST ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS, EXCEPT
3 THAT A VIOLATION OF THIS SECTION THAT INVOLVES TEN OR MORE ILLEGAL ALIENS IS
4 A CLASS 6 FELONY AND THE PERSON IS SUBJECT TO A FINE OF AT LEAST ONE THOUSAND
5 DOLLARS FOR EACH ALIEN WHO IS INVOLVED.

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

 

[KarateCowboy]

Hello Miss Wiccan. May I call you Miss Wiccan?

Here is the legal definition of "reasonable suspicion" according to lawyers.com:
Reasonable suspicion Legal Definition - Lawyers.com

Definition - Noun
: an objectively justifiable suspicion that is based on specific facts or circumstances and that justifies stopping and sometimes searching (as by frisking) a person thought to be involved in criminal activity at the time
see also reasonable cause at cause
compare probable cause at cause terry stop
A police officer stopping a person must be able to point to specific facts or circumstances even though the level of suspicion need not rise to that of the belief that is supported by probable cause. A reasonable suspicion is more than a hunch.


BTW: in law the term "reasonable" is defined as "what a reasonable person would do given the circumstances". Welcome to the world of law.

 

[DaisyDay]

After all, how many asians are sneaking across the border with Mexico? Or Europeans...

If a criminal is described as a 'tall white male', why would police bother stopping anyone who doesn't fit that profile?

Now, we have millions of Mexicans coming across the border illegally, but we can't use a racial profile trying to apprehend them? Insane!

Hello, Juan Crow!