Define Reasonable Suspicion

[ZephyrWiccan]

Safety then Quality! I think if your not a known resident and are Mexican. It is reasonable to ask them for residency! If they don't like it move from the border to a less profound, effected or precocious area.High profile area is the words I'm look for lol!

Try again, in understandable English rather than whatever fragmented-sentence gibberish you wrote that in (Perhaps we should ask you for your evidence of citizenship, using your own criteria from before about being able to speak English?).

I take it from what I could make out of that jumble that you can not answer the simple questions I asked you?

 

[allhart]

Try again, in understandable English rather than whatever fragmented-sentence gibberish you wrote that in (Perhaps we should ask you for your evidence of citizenship, using your own criteria from before about being able to speak English?).

I take it from what I could make out of that jumble that you can not answer the simple questions I asked you?

Okiefied, red-neck and Hill Billy to boot lol! So be it ask for the safety of the collective....At least their asking,protecting and enforcing the laws of the land, not laws of man....

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

Okiefied, red-neck and Hill Billy to boot lol! So be it ask for the safety of the collective....At least their asking,protecting and enforcing the laws of the land, not laws of man....

Alright, you're either off your rocker, or a troll. Either way, no point in continuing this useless discussion with you. Please leave my thread.

 

[allhart]

Alright, you're either off your rocker, or a troll. Either way, no point in continuing this useless discussion with you. Please leave my thread.

Ya son I'm sitting here in my rockin' chair giving my old input!

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

Ya son I'm sitting here in my rockin' chair giving my old input!

Troll Iggied now. Congratulations you're the first person I've put on ignore. Run along and play with your toys, child.

 

[allhart]

Troll Iggied now. Congratulations you're the first person I've put on ignore. Run along and play with your toys, child.

lol so cereal....whatever!

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

This message is hidden because allhart is on your ignore list.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

If by saying that 100% on the Mexican border are Mexicans coming over the border and by chance asking some legal resident to be uncomfortable, by asking for papers, for the safety sake of the whole,so be it! Quit acting like it ain't a reasonable perception! Just like Jihad ain't a Syrian perception. Be realistic...I'm a realist! The only reason i can see that someone might be upset if their in the wrong or doing wrong!

Right.... so asking for papers 'for the safety sake of the whole' is not a bad thing. But asking for other things 'for the safety sake of the whole', like a coherent healthcare system, is a bad thing?

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

Right.... so asking for papers 'for the safety sake of the whole' is not a bad thing. But asking for other things 'for the safety sake of the whole', like a coherent healthcare system, is a bad thing?

Or, like, restrictions on gun sales.... Now that would be just silly. Can't worry about the "safety of the whole" when it comes to healthcare and guns!

 

[allhart]

Right.... so asking for papers 'for the safety sake of the whole' is not a bad thing. But asking for other things 'for the safety sake of the whole', like a coherent healthcare system, is a bad thing?

No, that's redistribution of wealth and the lack of freedom of choice! We need laws of the land not man!

 

[allhart]

Or, like, restrictions on gun sales.... Now that would be just silly. Can't worry about the "safety of the whole" when it comes to healthcare and guns!

Laws of land not man. For you can't legislate morality. You can only regulate how far they can go!

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, that's redistribution of wealth and the lack of freedom of choice! We need laws of the land not man!

You already have redistribution. The Government takes your wealth and uses it to build roads, pay the police service and defend the country. You lack the freedom of choice to say 'no' to paying for these services. So why aren't you protesting this redistribution and lack of freedom of choice?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, that's redistribution of wealth and the lack of freedom of choice! We need laws of the land not man!

You already have redistribution. The Government takes your wealth and uses it to build roads, pay the police service and defend the country. You lack the freedom of choice to say 'no' to paying for these services. So why aren't you protesting this redistribution and lack of freedom of choice?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Laws of land not man. For you can't legislate morality. You can only regulate how far they can go!

But asking someone for their papers isn't the 'law of the land.' It's a law of man. So why aren't you saying 'laws of the land not man' to the proposition to ask people for their papers? Instead you say it's for the 'safety of the whole'. The same 'safety of the whole argument' could be used to justify gun license restrictions.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Laws of land not man. For you can't legislate morality. You can only regulate how far they can go!

But asking someone for their papers isn't the 'law of the land.' It's a law of man. So why aren't you saying 'laws of the land not man' to the proposition to ask people for their papers? Instead you say it's for the 'safety of the whole'. The same 'safety of the whole argument' could be used to justify gun license restrictions.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Sorry about the double-posts everyone. I don't know why they're happening. Either I'm double-clicking 'Post Reply' or .. well, I don't know.

 

[Macx]

It is like a train wreck . . . . . Oh my. I feel like misspelling somehting just to fit in.

It is clear that the Federal Gov't. is not adequately adressing illegal immigration. AZ has passed a law prohibiting the smaller units of its government from passing laws and/or policies which limit the state and local police from investigating possible illegals. The law also establishes a policy of officer discretion during citizen contacts in investigating possible illegal immigrants. The question at hand is "What is reasonable suspicion" . .. . I believe looking at Terry v. Ohio would be useful - Terry v. Ohio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia While the Terry Search is a breif pat down for weapons, this AZ law asks for proof of citizenship . . . I am expecting that the standards of "reasonable" will be similar. In both cases the fourth amendment is touched on and in both cases we're talking about officers having an articulatable reason to contact a citizen. While "driving while black" incidents do happen & I have been "pulled over" for walking on a sidewalk while looking . .. however it is I look. I get that & it is a bummer, the purpose of this law isn't to pull people over for driving while looking Hispanic. The purpose of this law is to allow for a check of citizenship if in the course of a normal citizen contact, there becomes an articulatable reason to believe someone may not be a U.S. citizen.

 

[Willtor]

It is like a train wreck . . . . . Oh my. I feel like misspelling somehting just to fit in.

It is clear that the Federal Gov't. is not adequately adressing illegal immigration. AZ has passed a law prohibiting the smaller units of its government from passing laws and/or policies which limit the state and local police from investigating possible illegals. The law also establishes a policy of officer discretion during citizen contacts in investigating possible illegal immigrants. The question at hand is "What is reasonable suspicion" . .. . I believe looking at Terry v. Ohio would be useful - Terry v. Ohio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia While the Terry Search is a breif pat down for weapons, this AZ law asks for proof of citizenship . . . I am expecting that the standards of "reasonable" will be similar. In both cases the fourth amendment is touched on and in both cases we're talking about officers having an articulatable reason to contact a citizen. While "driving while black" incidents do happen & I have been "pulled over" for walking on a sidewalk while looking . .. however it is I look. I get that & it is a bummer, the purpose of this law isn't to pull people over for driving while looking Hispanic. The purpose of this law is to allow for a check of citizenship if in the course of a normal citizen contact, there becomes an articulatable reason to believe someone may not be a U.S. citizen.

It is engineered in a way that is fundamentally abuse-able. Probably it is not deliberately engineered this way, but it looks to be engineered without regard given to legal residents and citizens. Consider:

1. In a Terry stop, a police officer is pretty much expected to find a concealed weapon, or a bomb, or evidence of a crime, or some such. Per the AZ law, are all Hispanic people who live near the border with Mexico now expected to carry evidence that they _do_ belong in this country? What if they don't have their licenses, social security cards, or green cards on them? What has the police officer found?

2. Police who perform a Terry stop are fully aware that there may be consequences if they are wrong. But if an officer sees ten Hispanic people standing by the side of the road waiting to get picked up for work, and it turns out that five of them are illegal aliens, did he have "good reason" to search the other five?

 

[Douger]

Wouldn't race count as reasonable suspicion? I know this may sound awful, but if you have a law to apprehend immigration offenders wouldn't the best way to do it be to target people who look like Mexicans and ask for their documents?
Let's not pretend that Nigerians, Brazilians or Russians are the ones the immigration debate is over, it's Mexicans. That's obviously who this law is targeting, so they should just be honest about it.

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

Wouldn't race count as reasonable suspicion? I know this may sound awful, but if you have a law to apprehend immigration offenders wouldn't the best way to do it be to target people who look like Mexicans and ask for their documents?
Let's not pretend that Nigerians, Brazilians or Russians are the ones the immigration debate is over, it's Mexicans. That's obviously who this law is targeting, so they should just be honest about it.

Ah, I see. So you believe someone's race should be used as "reasonable suspicion"?

So as long as you "look Mexican" you can be hauled to the side and required to show identification? So my several Filipino friends who, themselves, admit they look rather "Mexican" should be requested this as well?

Last I checked, when stopped on the street you are only required in most places to give your name (perhaps your address). You are not required to have your ID or proof of citizenship with you. So are we going to make it a special requirement for SOME citizens to always carry it with them?