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Define evolution

lucaspa

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Both are stochastic processes that filter alleles. Why can't they both fit under the heading "differential reproductive success"? Whether reproductive success is due to negative, neutral, or positive selection it is still differential reproductive success. Or am I missing something?

When alleles are fixed (or eliminated) by natural selection, it is not chance. However, the fixation of alleles by genetic drift is pure chance. It's not really "reproductive success".

Reproductive isolation can also be due to geographic isolation which is not driven by changes in allele frequency.

But geographic isolation doesn't automatically cause speciation, either. AFTER the population is isolated, natural selection works on it and makes it different from the original -- changes the gene frequency. There were several lab studies on this, where populations were isolated but kept in the same environments. No reproductive isolation. Only when the environment was different and the populations were subjected to natural selection did speciation result. Here's one of them:
1. G Kilias, SN Alahiotis, and M Pelecanos. A multifactorial genetic investigation of speciation theory using drosophila melanogaster Evolution 34:730-737, 1980.

I am leaning more and more towards the attitude that evolution is an emergent process.

Define that, please. What exactly do you mean by "emergent process" and why would "evolution" fit it?

I think this can best seen in the popularity of evo-devo over the last 15 years. In the same way that morphology is an emergent property of dna regulation, so too might evolution be an emergent property of many different mechanisms that affect populations. Just a thought.

What evo-devo has shown is that small changes in some genes give large morphological changes. They have then taken the standard strawman of neo-Darwinism to say that evo-devo refutes neo-Darwinism. However, this really doesn't change anything. It is still "random" changes in morphology subject to selection in particular environments. It's just that some quantitative changes can turn into qualitative ones. But we have known exaptation doing that since Darwin.
 
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Split Rock

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But geographic isolation doesn't automatically cause speciation, either. AFTER the population is isolated, natural selection works on it and makes it different from the original -- changes the gene frequency. There were several lab studies on this, where populations were isolated but kept in the same environments. No reproductive isolation. Only when the environment was different and the populations were subjected to natural selection did speciation result. Here's one of them:
1. G Kilias, SN Alahiotis, and M Pelecanos. A multifactorial genetic investigation of speciation theory using drosophila melanogaster Evolution 34:730-737, 1980.
Theoretically genetic drift can cause isolation as well, no? I would think it would usually take longer, however.
 
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Loudmouth

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When alleles are fixed (or eliminated) by natural selection, it is not chance. However, the fixation of alleles by genetic drift is pure chance. It's not really "reproductive success".

Reproductive success is measured by number of offspring, not the selective forces or lack thereof. But perhaps I am stretching the definition to the point that it no longer has meaning. I hate debates on semantics, so we can probably leave it there.

But geographic isolation doesn't automatically cause speciation, either. AFTER the population is isolated, natural selection works on it and makes it different from the original -- changes the gene frequency.

Geographic isolation also allows different mutation to accrue in each population which is the basis for divergence. Don't get me wrong, sympatric speciation is a very important and well recognized mode of speciation, but it isn't the only one.

Define that, please. What exactly do you mean by "emergent process" and why would "evolution" fit it?

I am not a fan of wiki, but they have a pretty good description here:

"In philosophy, systems theory and the sciences, emergence refers to the way complex systems and patterns, such as those that form a hurricane, arise out of a multiplicity of relatively simple interactions."

The classic example (which was on Nova last week I believe) is flocking behavior. It has been shown that a few simple rules results in complex flocking behavior, such as a flock of birds that turns and moves as one.

I could be totally off my rocker, but I think evolution does have some features of emergence. Simple rules (ie the mechanisms of evolution) result in very complex interactions and adaptations. Interactions within a both stable and dynamic ecosystems result in a complexity that overshadows the simplicity of those interactions.

What evo-devo has shown is that small changes in some genes give large morphological changes. They have then taken the standard strawman of neo-Darwinism to say that evo-devo refutes neo-Darwinism. However, this really doesn't change anything. It is still "random" changes in morphology subject to selection in particular environments. It's just that some quantitative changes can turn into qualitative ones. But we have known exaptation doing that since Darwin.

I totally agree. One good thing that evo-devo has done is move us farther away from a "one function/one gene " view of evolution. What I think evo-devo shows us is that adaptations can arise through changes in developmental pathways. This is important (at least in multi-celled eukaryotes) because developmental pathways are not directly affected by selective pressures. Development, in a way, is a black box who's only selectable function is the final product which gives a lot of freedom to developmental pathways.

Historically, evolution started out much more along the lines of evo-devo. This seemed to change with the advent of the Modern Synthesis but the tides are changing once again.
 
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CACTUSJACKmankin

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change in allele frequency over time.

That one won't work. It won't give speciation. You will find that Ernst Mayr and other evolutionary biologists reject that reductionist definition.
I recognise that its a weak definition, my only purpose was to give the "textbook" definition before moving to better ones.
 
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Atheuz

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That's natural selection, which is one of the mechanisms of evolution. Evolution includes inherited changes that are not favorable, not just favorable ones.

Last part is natural selection, I think the first part covers the mutation aspect pretty good?

"Evolution is when minor mutations in genetic codes accumulate over time to make new traits"

Or did you just skip that part and went on reading the last part?
 
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lucaspa

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Reproductive success is measured by number of offspring, not the selective forces or lack thereof. But perhaps I am stretching the definition to the point that it no longer has meaning.

Remember, Mendelian genetics gives you the odds. With a heterozygous dominant trait and both parents are homozygous for the different alleles, the offspring will be 25% AA, 50% Aa, and 25% aa. That doesn't mean that, if you have 4 kids, you are guaranteed to have 1 AA, 2 Aa and 1 aa. Instead, chance may give you 2 AA and 2 Aa. In that case, the gene frequency of A has increased, hasn't it? But there has been no "differential reproductive success".

This can work thru an entire population such that there isn't really any "reproductive success", but the frequency of the gene will change. Purely by chance.

Natural selection, OTOH, does work by differential reproductive success because the environment is selecting particular designs.

Geographic isolation also allows different mutation to accrue in each population which is the basis for divergence. Don't get me wrong, sympatric speciation is a very important and well recognized mode of speciation, but it isn't the only one.

But mutations don't "accrue" unless there is selection. Remember Hardy-Weinberg. Gene frequencies stay the same from generation to generation unless there is some other process acting. The equations for genetic drift shows that it is not a factor when the effective population size >50.

BTW, sympatric speciation often also involves isolation. In this case it is behavioral or ecological, not geographical.

I am not a fan of wiki, but they have a pretty good description here:

"In philosophy, systems theory and the sciences, emergence refers to the way complex systems and patterns, such as those that form a hurricane, arise out of a multiplicity of relatively simple interactions."

OK

I could be totally off my rocker, but I think evolution does have some features of emergence. Simple rules (ie the mechanisms of evolution) result in very complex interactions and adaptations. Interactions within a both stable and dynamic ecosystems result in a complexity that overshadows the simplicity of those interactions.

Ecosystems are different from evolution. Yes, the adaptations are more "complex" that the simple change of base sequences. However, there is a series of links there, even if we haven't delineated all of them.

One good thing that evo-devo has done is move us farther away from a "one function/one gene " view of evolution. What I think evo-devo shows us is that adaptations can arise through changes in developmental pathways. This is important (at least in multi-celled eukaryotes) because developmental pathways are not directly affected by selective pressures. Development, in a way, is a black box who's only selectable function is the final product which gives a lot of freedom to developmental pathways.

No gene is directly affected by selection. This is the problem Dawkins ran into with his selfish gene theory. Instead, the individual is the unit of selection. Which means that selection works on the "final product". So evo-devo isn't any different from the rest of evolution that way.

And evolution has long known that selection works thru developmental pathways. The classic example are the development of teeth in birds and baleen whales. In both teeth develop in utero only to be resorbed in utero. An additional developmental step. Neoteny is also recognized as an evolutionary mechanism.

The contribution of evo-devo seems to be that the timing of expression of genes can have phenotypic effects and that some genes can coordinately control the expression of a whole series of genes.

Historically, evolution started out much more along the lines of evo-devo. This seemed to change with the advent of the Modern Synthesis but the tides are changing once again.

This is the strawman. Everyone likes to make the Modern Synthesis more restrictive than it is so they can look good "refuting" it. Gould tried that with Punctuated Equilibrium. Now it's the turn of evo-devo's.

This is my favorite example of Hox genes. Change just ONE base in the Ubx gene, and you change the number of legs:

1a. http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature716_fs.html Hox protein mutation and macroevolution of the insect body plan. Ronshaugen M, McGinnis N, McGinnis W. Nature 2002 Feb 21;415(6874):914-7 Mutate one serine to alanine and change limb # from multiple limbs of crustaceans to 6 limbs of insects. "To test this, we generated mutant versions of Artemia Ubx in which C-terminal Ser/Thr residues were mutated to Ala. In the first such mutant (Art Ubx S/T to A 1–5), the first five Ser and Thr residues in the C-terminus are changed to Ala. This mutant Ubx has little limb-repression function, similar to wild-type Artemia Ubx (Fig. 3). However, the mutation of one additional Ser in a CKII consensus site (Art Ubx S/T to A 1–5 and 7) results in a Ubx that strongly represses embryonic limbs (Fig. 3)."
 
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lucaspa

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Last part is natural selection, I think the first part covers the mutation aspect pretty good?

"Evolution is when minor mutations in genetic codes accumulate over time to make new traits"

Or did you just skip that part and went on reading the last part?

Atheuz, natural selection is a two-step process:
1. Variation.
2. Selection.

Mutation is one mechanism for variation. So "mutations" is not separate from natural selection.

Look at the definition of natural selection from Darwin that I gave you. It's very clear that variation is part of natural selection.
 
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lucaspa

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my only purpose was to give the "textbook" definition before moving to better ones.

My objection is that "change in allele frequencies over time" is NOT the "textbook definition". It's one only if you are a molecular biologist. :)

So, please, in the future, if you are asked again to define evolution, try "descent with modification" if you want a short definition. That's the short definition the National Academy of Sciences uses.
 
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Loudmouth

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Remember, Mendelian genetics gives you the odds. With a heterozygous dominant trait and both parents are homozygous for the different alleles, the offspring will be 25% AA, 50% Aa, and 25% aa. That doesn't mean that, if you have 4 kids, you are guaranteed to have 1 AA, 2 Aa and 1 aa. Instead, chance may give you 2 AA and 2 Aa. In that case, the gene frequency of A has increased, hasn't it? But there has been no "differential reproductive success".

Perhaps my difficulties arise from picturing genes as individuals.

But mutations don't "accrue" unless there is selection. Remember Hardy-Weinberg. Gene frequencies stay the same from generation to generation unless there is some other process acting. The equations for genetic drift shows that it is not a factor when the effective population size >50.

The HWE is based on the assumption that alleles are inherited independtly of each other which isn't true for every allele. Also, HWE is violated for small founding populations which can be involved in allopatric speciation (eg founding populations on islands).

I guess what I was going for is the causation of divergence. With sympatric speciation it is strongly influenced by genetics. This is what gets the ball rolling. For example, the case of the apple maggot where speciation occurs by adapting to different hosts and hence different breeding periods. The two step process is adaptation then isolation. I view allopatric speciation as the opposite trend, isolation followed by adaptation.

BTW, sympatric speciation often also involves isolation. In this case it is behavioral or ecological, not geographical.

Very true, but the isolation is due to adaptation in many cases. Geographic isolation is often due to forces other than adaptation.

Ecosystems are different from evolution. Yes, the adaptations are more "complex" that the simple change of base sequences. However, there is a series of links there, even if we haven't delineated all of them.

Ecosystems are the product of evolution.

No gene is directly affected by selection.

Well sure, it sounds obvious when you say it. You're right, I let that one slip by.

This is the strawman. Everyone likes to make the Modern Synthesis more restrictive than it is so they can look good "refuting" it. Gould tried that with Punctuated Equilibrium. Now it's the turn of evo-devo's.

I never meant that the Modern Synthesis is more restrictive. What I meant to say is that molecular biology moved away from development with the discovery of DNA and just before that with the advent of the Modern Synthesis. This move was not required by the MS. I think it had to do more with personal bias and the discovery of genes in DNA.
 
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Split Rock

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The classic example (which was on Nova last week I believe) is flocking behavior. It has been shown that a few simple rules results in complex flocking behavior, such as a flock of birds that turns and moves as one.

There is an interesting article on this in National Geographic (July 2007), "Swarm theory," pp 126-147.

Basically, individuals within the group act only on local cues utilizing very simple rules. These actions translate into a "collective behavior" that allows all the individuals to act together as one.
 
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Skaloop

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yes but you must remember that national geographic is a bias magazine and that they are evolutionists

National Geographic is one of the most respected periodical publications in existence. Their bias lies in presenting the natural wonders of this world. Evolution just happens to be one of them.
 
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Dannager

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yes but you must remember that national geographic is a bias magazine and that they are evolutionists
That's like saying that my math teacher is biased because he thinks 2 + 2 = 4.

Evolution is pretty universally accepted. The only people who disagree are those whose faith doesn't allow them to accept it.
 
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CACTUSJACKmankin

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yes but you must remember that national geographic is a bias magazine and that they are evolutionists
as a lay publication with a very strong emphasis on science and history it is almost unparalleled. Please do not use the term evolutionist, it is meaningless and decietful. I am no more an evolutionist than i am a gravitist, i am no more a darwinist than i am a newtonist. It's the scientific view of life based on evidence, it's not a belief.
 
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Aron-Ra

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yes but you must remember that national geographic is a bias magazine and that they are evolutionists
A "bias" is where one has assumed a predetermined conclusion without sufficient reason, and has decided in advance never to reconsider it for any reason. That is the perspective of faith, not of science. Creationist sources are biased. "Evolutionist" sources are not.
 
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s41nn0n

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no many of them are not Christians becaue they oftern teach the opposite to what the BIBLE teaches us.

Aron-Ra how can you say Christians are bias when you say that you are bias.
and the evolutionist are bias because they try tell people that micro-evolution is true, as I have no question with that as people see it happen, but then the evolutionist says that because that is true then macro-evolution must be true as well.
Which I dont agree with as no person has ever seen or experienced.
 
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sfs

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no many of them are not Christians becaue they oftern teach the opposite to what the BIBLE teaches us.
No, they teach the opposite from what YOU teach. Don't mistake your interpretation of the Bible for the word of God.

and the evolutionist are bias because they try tell people that micro-evolution is true, as I have no question with that as people see it happen, but then the evolutionist says that because that is true then macro-evolution must be true as well.
We don't say that macroevolution is true because microevolution is true. We say that the evidence shows overwhelmingly that macroevolution is true, and that microevolution can demonstrate the same process in action.
 
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sfs

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Last part is natural selection, I think the first part covers the mutation aspect pretty good?

"Evolution is when minor mutations in genetic codes accumulate over time to make new traits"

Or did you just skip that part and went on reading the last part?
My point was that you were ignoring genetic drift, which is the dominant contributor to evolution in many situations.
 
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