Define 'church' ?

[mlqurgw]

Deleted double post.

 

[mlqurgw]

Hi anewinhim. I am new here too.
I'd just like to say that I understand exactly how you feel. We live in a town with quite literally a church on every corner, and not a single one preaches the truth. We currently drive an hour to go to a church that we pretty much agree with, but there is just no way to have true fellowship when you live that far away.

I would love more than anything to be able to find a church where the Bible is preached, and that I could be a real part of. We have attended several local churches, and at every one, we'd have to go home and "unteach" our children what had been taught there.

I absolutely agree that we are to be a part of the body, and not do the "just me and God" thing. But what do those of us do when there are no churches near us where the Bible is actually preached?

I know this will sound simplistic but you can move to a place where you can worship God. I have some brothers and sisters in Christ who moved half way around the world to be able to hear the truth of the Gospel preached and taught. It is a question of how committed you are to it.

 

[kimlva]

I know this will sound simplistic but you can move to a place where you can worship God. I have some brothers and sisters in Christ who moved half way around the world to be able to hear the truth of the Gospel preached and taught. It is a question of how committed you are to it.

Actually, we have been trying to move there for over a year because my husband also works there. However, we are on the low side when it comes to income, and have not been able to afford anything we can even think about affording. We trust that God will enable us to move if and when He wants us to though. Meanwhile, we continue to look.

Lest you think we are just being too picky ( being the reason we cannot find a house), we live in a little 4 room house right now that the floors are falling out of. But with the exception of not having a church, we are content with what the Lord has provided us with.

 

[mlqurgw]

Actually, we have been trying to move there for over a year because my husband also works there. However, we are on the low side when it comes to income, and have not been able to afford anything we can even think about affording. We trust that God will enable us to move if and when He wants us to though. Meanwhile, we continue to look.

Lest you think we are just being too picky ( being the reason we cannot find a house), we live in a little 4 room house right now that the floors are falling out of. But with the exception of not having a church, we are content with what the Lord has provided us with.

I understand. I travel 45 minutes each way myself to church. I believe it is worth it. I don't move closer by choice. I only live 5 minutes away from where I work and the travel time for my wife is much less where we are than what it would be if we were closer to church. Though we don't get to make the mid-week service, I work evenings, we do make the trip twice each Sunday. You are right though, the Lord does provide a way for us to always do His will.

 

[bradfordl]

Aah... here is a subject close to my heart. All the posts are so relavent to my experience its scary. We searched hard for a faithful Church ten years ago, list of questions in hand, and finally found one. Solid doctrine, sincere and loving people, faithful and committed Pastor. Then he retired, folks moved away, a new "hireling" shepherd was hired.... and all fell into painful dissolution. I must confess a great bitterness came upon me.

We tried some local nominally reformed churches, then the local mega 3 1/2 pointer dispy Church. Very scary. I got disgusted and quit even looking. My wife began taking the kids to a Church 50 miles away that is faithful, where our retired pastor attends along with maybe 5 other families from our old congregation. I resisted. Wrestled with the idea that God is our provider, and as such will not fail to provide a local Church for us to be a part of. I can attest that the coal alone analogy is true. After a time barely an ember was left. But recently things are changing.

I know most of the folks at that far away Church, and love them very much. The Pastor is a little dry and droning in his delivery of extremely doctrinally sound sermons, and I love it. Had my fill of entertaining energized error. The worship service is traditional presby, with a couple of praise songs thrown in at the beginning to placate the younger folks, but all doctrinally sound... not 7-11 songs. So I'm considering transferring my non-existant membership, even though its so far away. Main reason? I miss the Table. I can't bring myself to partake of an improperly fenced Table as I've seen at that local mega-church and others. I desire to partake where there is a body of authority which has examined me and granted access, along with the self-examination I am commanded to practice. I miss feeding upon my Lord, but don't want to do so without real consideration of its import and permission from those given charge over the fencing of the Table.

So, as one who has spent the past three years away from committed Church fellowship, the things I miss most are, in order of personal preference, access to the Table, submission to and availability of wise counsel from a faithful Pastor and Session (as well as some brothers in their 70's and 80's that I have long loved and admired), fellowship with families like our own with kids that I have seen growing up in the ways of the lord, with whose parents my wife and I have rejoiced and wept together over the experiences of raising them.

I'm tired of drifting alone. My old pastor, 2 elders, and one deacon from my former Church are there that know me well enough to keep me on track, so even if I have to drive an hour, we're going to join.

Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

[Nadiine]

. I desire to partake where there is a body of authority which has examined me and granted access, along with the self-examination I am commanded to practice. I miss feeding upon my Lord, but don't want to do so without real consideration of its import and permission from those given charge over the fencing of the Table.

So, as one who has spent the past three years away from committed Church fellowship, the things I miss most are, in order of personal preference, access to the Table, submission to and availability of wise counsel from a faithful Pastor and Session (as well as some brothers in their 70's and 80's that I have long loved and admired), fellowship with families like our own with kids that I have seen growing up in the ways of the lord, with whose parents my wife and I have rejoiced and wept together over the experiences of raising them.

I'm tired of drifting alone. My old pastor, 2 elders, and one deacon from my former Church are there that know me well enough to keep me on track,

Thank you for this - this is how I sound when I'm not going to church for any length of time. I'm thrilled that you were able to find somewhere you feel right in.

I asked in the other posts where they're taking communion regularly if they refuse to go to church - i basically heard crickets.... you can't tell me that the majority of those who reject Church gathering are taking communion with their buddies at thier backyard BBQ's.
It seems communion is basically "no biggy" either?! I wonder if people avoid communion, knowing that in order to partake, God calls us to repent & examine our hearts and that's keeping them away from any desire to participate in it?

I've never heard of elders 'examining your participation in communion' before? I know the verse calling us to examine ourselves, but I don't recall reading that in the bible, is there a verse that teaches this procedure specifically?

Then your post hits on "accountability"... another important need that regular church assembly fills (for many).

We've had to relocate quite a few times, and each time we had to find a new church. Not all churches were for us - but we usually didn't have a hard time finding one.
Amazing timing too, becuz this morning we're trying out a new church (long story about some WRONG things happening at our church which the Pastor is at the center of... we needed to leave).
So I'm nervous about going to a new church when I was so comfy at our previous one. I know God will provide.

I'm wondering if you were looking for a Calvanistic church? If those are harder to find? Just curious.

Anyways, thank you for the post, I definitely know that dried up feeling when we aren't going. (reminds me of that verse about the deer panting after the water)...

 

[kimlva]

I'm wondering if you were looking for a Calvanistic church? If those are harder to find? Just curious.

I know you weren't speaking to me here, but I just wanted to say that where I live, there are NO Calvinist churches whatsoever! I wonder if this is a regional thing, or if they are indeed hard to find everywhere.

Personally, I cannot go to a church that preaches a different "god" than I believe in. One who is unable to accomplish what he wishes, but must wait for humans to make the right decisions. A god who is wringing his hands just waiting and longing for someone to accept what he wants to give them. This is the "god" that is preached in the churches in my area, and I do not believe this to be the God of the Bible. I want my children to know the God who sits in the heavens and does as He pleases, and none can ask Him what He is doing, nor stay His hand (my paraphrase).

 

[edie19]

Main reason? I miss the Table. I can't bring myself to partake of an improperly fenced Table as I've seen at that local mega-church and others. I desire to partake where there is a body of authority which has examined me and granted access, along with the self-examination I am commanded to practice. I miss feeding upon my Lord, but don't want to do so without real consideration of its import and permission from those given charge over the fencing of the Table.

It's funny that you say that. My daughter attends a seeker sensitive church (and she's grounded enough that she sees their weaknesses). Because of the fact that they're a seeker church they don't have the Lord's Table at their regular services. Their Sunday evening service is geared to those who are already Christians and grounded in their faith. Anyhow, that's when they partake of the Lord's Table. I attended the evening service with my daughter a few weeks ago and was deeply disappointed in how the Lord's Table was handled. No admonitions, no words of institution, no instruction regarding participating w/o the right status. When my daughter asked me later how I liked the service I expressed my concerns about the Lord's Table and how the pastor introduced it. In the course of the conversation I mentioned a pastor's name (the one I thought handled the Lord's Table). Her response, that wasn't one of the pastor's - she thinks maybe it was one of the executive council members, but she's not really sure who it was.

edie

 

[Nadiine]

It's funny that you say that. My daughter attends a seeker sensitive church (and she's grounded enough that she sees their weaknesses). Because of the fact that they're a seeker church they don't have the Lord's Table at their regular services. Their Sunday evening service is geared to those who are already Christians and grounded in their faith. Anyhow, that's when they partake of the Lord's Table. I attended the evening service with my daughter a few weeks ago and was deeply disappointed in how the Lord's Table was handled. No admonitions, no words of institution, no instruction regarding participating w/o the right status. When my daughter asked me later how I liked the service I expressed my concerns about the Lord's Table and how the pastor introduced it. In the course of the conversation I mentioned a pastor's name (the one I thought handled the Lord's Table). Her response, that wasn't one of the pastor's - she thinks maybe it was one of the executive council members, but she's not really sure who it was.

edie

Edie, you are so correct!

I have been at many churches and their communion services... and yes, they are done either on Wed. or Sunday EVENINGS... I suppose they consider the lost mainly come on Sunday mornings
(which SADLY, I FIND MOST CHURCHES I GO TO ONLY TEACH FROM THE NT on Sunday am.s because I'm sure they feel the OT. is too 'radical' for newcomers or lost... and I believe THIS is why many newer converts often claim [in ignorance] that the OT is outdated & unecessary today!!).

At any rate, some of the communion services I've been to do not give the proper instruction on examining yourself and being "RIGHT" with the Lord before partaking.

There is a strong admonition not to take the Lords Table in vain due to the serious consequences of it.
If anything, that warning should be Read aloud EACH communion service.
amen.

 

[Rick Otto]

"It seems communion is basically "no biggy" either?! I wonder if people avoid communion, knowing that in order to partake, God calls us to repent & examine our hearts and that's keeping them away from any desire to participate in it?"

You do at least some of us an injustice in not addressing a concept of sacrement different from your own, with a better label than "no biggy". I like the label & its style, but I think it is "broad brush" and so doesn't identify any significant detail... if there IS any. It is entirely conceivable that the people you refer to are slightly apathetic. That is the norm I encountered routinely for years.
And yet I witnessed equal apathy toward bible study among the faithful attenders. An emotional, mystical, group affirmation has too much staging for me. Ritual Ceremony are often too arbitrary not to feel 'forced'.
It's not my intent to be rid of "churchianity", I value it.
I love it from a safe distance.

 

[McWilliams]

The Lords Supper at our church is a 'biggie', thankfully!
It is done Sunday evening when church family is present but of course the 'lost' are certainly welcome at all services. Before, during and after communion scripture is read, instruction and warning are given as per scripture and it is IMO a sound, biblical, God honoring service.
The men selected to serve the congregants are always dressed in suits/ties and the service is to me one that calls me to do it in remembrance of Him, who has graced my life with salvation, healing, and forgiveness! Sermons by our pastor are serious, scriptural, gospel and biblical and one knows they must be converted as they hear God's word to them! I've seen minimal apathy there and most become very knowledgable of the bible if they continue there! I've learned more doctrine and scripture there in the last five years than in all the other years of my life combined! God is good! I am blest! I've no desire ever to forsake the assembling of ourself together,as the manner of some is and thank Him that I found such a church as this! I do know it is a rareity, sadly!

 

[McWilliams]

Since this thread is about 'church' I would challenge you to learn what is wrong with church as known by most of todays attendees! I know you're busy but this is such a must to understand why, how and why we're to do church! Pleeeeeeeze take time to listen!

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=1150621742

I promise you, your heart will be challenged and blest!

(The audio now appears to be working! Blessings!)

 

[Nadiine]

Since this thread is about 'church' I would challenge you to learn what is wrong with church as known by most of todays attendees! I know you're busy but this is such a must to understand why, how and why we're to do church! Pleeeeeeeze take time to listen!

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=1150621742

I promise you, your heart will be challenged and blest!

(Oh sorry, just noted the audio is not available yet.)

Thank you for your interesting posts and this link!
I'll check it out later today.

I'm wondering if any of the churches of Revelation fit the church as it is today (at least in America/Europe).?
But that may depend on your 'end times' views which might not be suited for this thread.

 

[bradfordl]

I've never heard of elders 'examining your participation in communion' before? I know the verse calling us to examine ourselves, but I don't recall reading that in the bible, is there a verse that teaches this procedure specifically?

By that I mean 1) examining those who want to become members, as to what they believe and the veracity of their conversion, and 2) the fencing of the Table. Most presby Churches I've attended restrict access to those who are members in good standing of a Bible-believing evangelical Church. As shepherds over the flock, Elders have the responsibility to protect their charges from unworthily partaking both corporately and individually. I kinda like the idea that someone who cares about me would hold me accountable if he knew I was in unrepentent sin and about to partake of the sacraments. For scripture reference, I guess the pastoral letters, 1&2 Tim and Titus pretty much infer that responsibility.

I'm wondering if you were looking for a Calvanistic church? If those are harder to find? Just curious.

Well.... you say Calvinistic, I say biblically sound, but yes, that's what we look for, and yes, they are hard to find.

 

[Nadiine]

By that I mean 1) examining those who want to become members, as to what they believe and the veracity of their conversion, and 2) the fencing of the Table. Most presby Churches I've attended restrict access to those who are members in good standing of a Bible-believing evangelical Church. As shepherds over the flock, Elders have the responsibility to protect their charges from unworthily partaking both corporately and individually. I kinda like the idea that someone who cares about me would hold me accountable if he knew I was in unrepentent sin and about to partake of the sacraments. For scripture reference, I guess the pastoral letters, 1&2 Tim and Titus pretty much infer that responsibility.

Well.... you say Calvinistic, I say biblically sound, but yes, that's what we look for, and yes, they are hard to find.

Ok, thank you for your replies.

I'm sorry if i at all came off sounding 'anti' calvanist in that question... as i hope everyone here knows, i'm NOT anti, and I don't argue it in disagreement. In fact in chats that I debate in, I'm an adamant supporter of Calvanists if they're ever being messed with by other people.
(as i've said here before) I lean 99% towards it, I'm just not at the 100% on it.

But I haven't come across a whole lot of Calvanist churches in my personal experience of searching for a home church. I'm very sure I'd be perfectly comfortable there too!!

I really LOVE the Reformed section. you guys are great and a blessing to me.

 

[anewinhim]

Sorry I didnt get back to this post, it was upsetting. I do hope though that everyone was listening to John McArthur this Sunday where he preached about the famine in our land for the word of God. Hes right, there is a famine, I know, I have experienced it.

I did look again for a Church. I found a reformed Church about an hour away. As soon as I can get my car running again (it quit this weekend), I am going to go and see if they teach Gods word. If they do, I will go, if not, I will keep looking. Hopefully I will have it fixed this week, I think its just the TPS according to what codes it had. If so, next Sunday I will going to a Church.

As far as moving. No, I am not moving. I figure the Lord put me here and if He wants me to move, He will let me know.

 

[mlqurgw]

Sorry I didnt get back to this post, it was upsetting. I do hope though that everyone was listening to John McArthur this Sunday where he preached about the famine in our land for the word of God. Hes right, there is a famine, I know, I have experienced it.

I did look again for a Church. I found a reformed Church about an hour away. As soon as I can get my car running again (it quit this weekend), I am going to go and see if they teach Gods word. If they do, I will go, if not, I will keep looking. Hopefully I will have it fixed this week, I think its just the TPS according to what codes it had. If so, next Sunday I will going to a Church.

As far as moving. No, I am not moving. I figure the Lord put me here and if He wants me to move, He will let me know.

I hope my post wasn't the one that upset you. If it was I apologize, it wasn't meant to offend. If it was may I ask what it was that caused you concern?

 

[mommahen]

I hope this doesn't get lost at the end of this long, long thread...

What about the awesome preaching in the dead church? I know it sounds like an imposibility but it happens. Every worship service I am blessed and challenged by solid reformed teaching but there is NO fellowship. I agree on the importance of being under the authority of a solid reformed pastor but isn't fellowship with the body of paramount importance also? Is it permissable to find fellowship outside of our denominational beliefs to fullfill the human need for Jesus with the skin on (human christian contact)? When both the command to be part of a local church body and the need for fellowship cannot be found within the same body ... then what?

 

[mlqurgw]

I hope this doesn't get lost at the end of this long, long thread...

What about the awesome preaching in the dead church? I know it sounds like an imposibility but it happens. Every worship service I am blessed and challenged by solid reformed teaching but there is NO fellowship. I agree on the importance of being under the authority of a solid reformed pastor but isn't fellowship with the body of paramount importance also? Is it permissable to find fellowship outside of our denominational beliefs to fullfill the human need for Jesus with the skin on (human christian contact)? When both the command to be part of a local church body and the need for fellowship cannot be found within the same body ... then what?

I know this is giong to come across as blunt but I have to question the soundeness of the teaching if there is no fellowship. We are to preach the whole council of God, Christ Jesus the Lord. If we are doing that we must deal with brotherly love and fellowship. I have known many very doctinally sound dead Calvinists. Doctrine divorced from Christ is about as useless as a dress my wife has hanging in a closet. On her it is beautiful but lying on the bed or hanging in the closet for me to look at does me no good. It is only beautiful on her. She is what gives it it's beauty. Doctrine is made beautiful only as it is seen in Christ.

 

[Nadiine]

I hope this doesn't get lost at the end of this long, long thread...

What about the awesome preaching in the dead church? I know it sounds like an imposibility but it happens. Every worship service I am blessed and challenged by solid reformed teaching but there is NO fellowship. I agree on the importance of being under the authority of a solid reformed pastor but isn't fellowship with the body of paramount importance also? Is it permissable to find fellowship outside of our denominational beliefs to fullfill the human need for Jesus with the skin on (human christian contact)? When both the command to be part of a local church body and the need for fellowship cannot be found within the same body ... then what?

Is "fellowship" a direct biblical command? I know Hebrews says "do not forsake the assembling" of ourselves, but I wasn't aware that fellowship was commanded?
I define 'fellowship' as creating closer bonds of friendship with other's - one on one. Is that what's meant here?

And, I'm not sure how your church functions, but are you wanting fellowship of some sort to occur DURING church services? (if so, how?)
At the churches I've attended, there's always a foyer-lobby area where people mingle after service and fellowship that way.
Or, there are other church functions like on a Wed., Mon or Thurs. night where men & women have separate classes (men's/women's bible study, etc).

Or do you mean that the majority of the people attending have no interest in fellowshipping with others?