Define 'church' ?

[Nadiine]

I'm really grieved by the overall lack of care by a lot of self proclaimed Christians these days as to neglecting formal church attendance.

I keep hearing [the weak link] that since we are the church, & 'church' isn't the building/place, that we don't have to go to an organized church. It's perfectly fine to just watch tv sermons, radio, internet, etc. Ok, fine.

But we have examples in both the Old & New Testaments of corporate worship of believers (including financial giving), along with lengthy detailed guidelines from Paul as to proper church conduct, leadership & organization.

I've looked up the below verses and their Greek definitions and there are MANY vague definitions - These have left me rather unsure about what "church" and "house" actually mean anymore:

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Rom 16:5 Likewise [greet] the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
Col 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.
Mat 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
***
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars... The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. ​

​

Taking the above 2 verses into consideration (God removing the Lampstands at Ephesus due to losing their first love)...
It seems to me that if I'm understanding what 'church' means in Revelation, God is removing a church in His judgment?
It's no "Casual" event that a church be removed... so if our churches are all shutting down due to our lack of attendance/financial support, is this not closing down churches too? (willfully)?? (or isn't this a corporate place of worship there??)...

Where do the unsaved go when they want to seek God then? Or need spiritual counsel/help?? etc etc.
I'm sure that the thriving Jeh Wit., Kabballah centers, Christian Science & Mormon tabernacles would open their doors to recieve these souls with open arms.


As I always claim, I am no scholar here - I'm a little confused as to the technical details of church worship, even tho I adamantly support corporate worship for many reasons.

OR, are some here like those Christians who believe we just don't have to go if we don't feel like it?

Thanks for any info.

 

[edie19]

I believe that we are instructed to be part of a corporate church - we are to be a worshiping community. (Hebrews 10:24-25)

 

[Nadiine]

I believe that we are instructed to be part of a corporate church - we are to be a worshiping community. (Hebrews 10:24-25)

Thanks for taking your time to post! I totally agree with you sister =)

 

[edie19]

Thanks for taking your time to post! I totally agree with you sister =)

You're welcome. I'll likely post morinclude e later - but right now I'm using my daughter's laptop and haven't quite figured out the cut and paste options which makes it harder for me to include my quotes and sources.

edie

 

[anewinhim]

I read this post and I think it is directed twords me so I thought I would address it.

I'm really grieved by the overall lack of care by a lot of self proclaimed Christians these days as to neglecting formal church attendance.

You said self proclaimed christians? Can a person only be a Christian if a church says so? Who has the athority to save a person? I thought it was Jesus, and not the church. Who has the right to proclaim someone as a Christian?

I keep hearing [the weak link] that since we are the church, & 'church' isn't the building/place, that we don't have to go to an organized church. It's perfectly fine to just watch tv sermons, radio, internet, etc. Ok, fine.

In my case, I have found all churches that I have attended in my area to be gossip factorys and a Sunday religion. As soon as they change out of their fine Sunday clothes, the religion goes into the hamper too, if they wait that long, and dont just gossip in the parking lot on the way out.

They dont change their ways, they dont show any fruit of the spirit. Why would I want to bring my kids down there to be witness to that?

One of the main reasons I stopped going to church for many years of my life was, the people at the church I attended as a kid acted WORSE than the unbelievers. I dont want my kids to have the same experience as I did. Seeing "christians" act like that made me want nothing to do with church or religion for the better part of my life. What kind of testamony does that give to our Lord?

But we have examples in both the Old & New Testaments of corporate worship of believers (including financial giving), along with lengthy detailed guidelines from Paul as to proper church conduct, leadership & organization.

I agree that corprate worship is best IF you can find a decent church to go to. If, and when, I find one, I will go. As far as financial giving, I do give. The only differnce is mine goes into the mail, not on the little plate.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I occasionally get into this discussion. imho, the best way to look at the issue is to look at the idea of God calling.

in salvation God irresistibly calls, justifying and starting the person on the path of sanctification. If you look at local church membership as a simultaneous call, that is, at the same time as God calls a Christian He also calls him into fellowship with a local body. This is part of the larger call to grow in Christ and to yield fruit. Now apparently, unlike the call to justification, this call to join a local church can be resisted for a period of time. Until the person grows enough in the faith to realize his/her absolute need to be related to other Christians and to exercise the gifts that can only be fulfilled in concert with and within a corporate body.

i like the ancient formulations:

outside the church there is no salvation. (although the confession modifies this to ordinary)

and if you will not have the church as your mother then you can not have God as your FAther.

 

[Nadiine]

I read this post and I think it is directed twords me so I thought I would address it.

Anewinhim,
No my friend, this WASN'T towards you whatsoever - it's actually a current thread I'm in in an entirely different section at the moment.

Sorry if you felt that way.

 

[mlqurgw]

The word translated Church in the New Testament means simply assembly, the called out ones. There is a local visible assembly called the church and a universal assembly also called the church. The context tells us which one is being spoken of. We are to gather together in the fellowship of the Gospel to publically worship our God and Savior. As has already been pointed out we are told in Heb. 10 to not forsake the gathering of ourselves together. I heard a story of a man who once attended church regularly. He stopped coming and the pastor vivisted him. The pastor never said a word to him but too a poker and reached into the fire in the fireplace and pulled out a bright burning coal on the hearth. As they sat there looking at the coal it began to cool and grow dark. Soon it had cooled enough so the the pastor reached down and picked it up. The man never missed church again.
We come together as an assembly of saints to worship and hear the Word of God proclaimed by a man who is called and gifted of God to lead and teach. Christ has promised to be where 2 or 3 have gathered in His name. If we want to hear from Him and find Him isn't it just reasonable to go where He has promised to be?
We are called sheep for a reason. A lone sheep is a dying sheep. Sheep need each other. Also sheep need a shepherd. According to Eph. 4 faithful pastors are a gift from Christ.
There are many reasons why people don't attend church . Some because they have been deeply hurt by someone or something in the local church so they don't go anymore. Others because they are not willing to commit themselves to anything. Others because they don't believe they need the consistent teaching from a faithful pastor. They are the lone wolfs who are awalys learning and never able to come to the truth. They fall into all sorts of heresy and error because they are too proud to be instructed.
In conclusion, the church is an assembly of called out believers who gather together to worship God in Christ and uphold one another in love. To neglect this is to put yourself in danger.

One more comment, it is true that much of what goes on in what is called churches today would be better to be left alone. Sadly many are doing nothing but entertaining souls on their way to Hell.

 

[McWilliams]

Church: a building where worship is held.

Church: the remnant, the body of believers in Christ, known only by God, over the world and over time.

Church: those in our particular fellowship group who we feel that we share mutually agreed beliefs and join regularly to unite in worship of our Savior together.

 

[Nadiine]

Anewinhim,
No my friend, this WASN'T towards you whatsoever - it's actually a current thread I'm in in an entirely different section at the moment.

Sorry if you felt that way.

In fact, let me paste one of the latest posts from that conversation:

I completely agree . We *are* the church no matter where we are . We don't *go to* - we *are* . Whenever one is with another christian , they *are* assembling . No need for scheduled and outlined meetings in expensive buildings . Those don't define "church" .

This is what I'm referring to as the problem. This is repeatedly used by people who just don't want to go to church at all. Fine.

But the NT Christians WERE ALSO the body of Christ (the church), and they still formally/corporately assembled under Paul's lengthy guidelines of orderly worship. How is it all of a sudden nothing we should pay any attention to?

I'm not understanding why people are seeing some "holy loophole", as if since "we're the church", we can just sit with another christian reading the newspaper at a table or playing fetch with the dog & we're "doing church"???

AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE?????

 

[mlqurgw]

In fact, let me paste one of the latest posts from that conversation:


This is what I'm referring to as the problem. This is repeatedly used by people who just don't want to go to church at all. Fine.

But the NT Christians WERE ALSO the body of Christ (the church), and they still formally/corporately assembled under Paul's lengthy guidelines of orderly worship. How is it all of a sudden nothing we should pay any attention to?

I'm not understanding why people are seeing some "holy loophole", as if since "we're the church", we can just sit with another christian reading the newspaper at a table or playing fetch with the dog & we're "doing church"???

AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE?????

Being a member of a local church requires some things that many are not willing to do. It requires a commitment of time, support and care. As long as you don't actually commit yourself to any local body you are free to do what you want. That was the problem that Israel had in the time of the Judges. Everyone did that which was right in his own eyes.
It also requires submission. When we become members of a local assembly we are putting ourselves under the God given authority of a man called of God to rule over us in spiritual things. That goes against our natural desire to be under the rule of none. To desire to be free is nothing more than rebellion against the rule of God. To be truly free we must first give up ourselves.
It also is a commitment to the hard way rather than the easy way. As far as spiritual things are concerned the easy way is always wrong. As long as you don't really stand with your brothers an sisters you can easily back away when trouble comes.

 

[Nadiine]

Being a member of a local church requires some things that many are not willing to do. It requires a commitment of time, support and care. As long as you don't actually commit yourself to any local body you are free to do what you want. That was the problem that Israel had in the time of the Judges. Everyone did that which was right in his own eyes.
It also requires submission. When we become members of a local assembly we are putting ourselves under the God given authority of a man called of God to rule over us in spiritual things. That goes against our natural desire to be under the rule of none. To desire to be free is nothing more than rebellion against the rule of God. To be truly free we must first give up ourselves.
It also is a commitment to the hard way rather than the easy way. As far as spiritual things are concerned the easy way is always wrong. As long as you don't really stand with your brothers an sisters you can easily back away when trouble comes.

I never thought of it this way.... thanks for the added insights.

Honestly, I'm hearing so many people "diss" church worship that I'm beginning to think I'm a FREAK or something for promoting anything "traditional" anymore.

I'm personally not the committment type myself (lots of major issues from childhood )- but we still go & support our local community church... if not just to keep them thriving for their importance to society.

thanks for the posts

 

[mlqurgw]

I never thought of it this way.... thanks for the added insights.

Honestly, I'm hearing so many people "diss" church worship that I'm beginning to think I'm a FREAK or something for promoting anything "traditional" anymore.

I'm personally not the committment type myself (lots of major issues from childhood )- but we still go & support our local community church... if not just to keep them thriving for their importance to society.

thanks for the posts

Something we all need to keep in mind when on the forums: This, or any other forum, doesn't represent the majority of people in the world. What it does represent is those who think they have something to say that others ought to hear, myself included. While there are many who just read and don't post the majority of those who do fit the description. That is why you have pages on pages of responses in those threads that are controversial and few in those that actually build up.

 

[frumanchu]

"And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near." - Heb 10:24-25

Church attendance is extremely important. There is no substitute for it. There are certainly reasons why one may or should leave an individual church, but declining to attend altogether falls under the category of the verse above. God has afforded certain means of grace to the corporate bodies of believers and to remove oneself from that setting longterm is detrimental to one's spiritual growth.

 

[anewinhim]

Nadiine

Sorry if my post came off too strong. I thought because of the post I did just before, that you were directing it at me. I am just so frustrated with this whole finding a church thing.

I dont want to gossip about people but this is the kind of things I run into. One day a few months back I was out visiting and I am sitting at someone kitchen table with 3 christians from that local church I mentioned. One of them was a church leader, a decon (sorry if thats spelled wrong).

They told me that the said church had gotten a new pastor and he was really good, that the church had changed from how it used to be. I thought to myself, wow, maybe I will go.

As the conversation went on, one of the church members was talking about some things, and was cussing like a sailor, breaking one of the 10 commandments, I dont want to mention the word they used.

Then they told me how they had gone on vacation together. I thought oh thats nice, at least until they told me they went to another state to go gambling.

My problem with this is if my kids were present during that conversation they would think that it was OK to be a Christian and to take the Lords name in vain, secondly, its ok to go gambling. I am not saying people cant sin, no one is perfect, but even I, being new, know better than to do things like that. It makes me question what are they really learning at that church. If they have went to church for years and still show no change in their ways, I have to wonder about it. The part that really bothered me was the boldness of it all. They acted like it was normal.

Its really frustrating. I dont want to go to just any church. I fear that they will teach my kids something that is wrong by either teachings, or their actions, and then I will have to explain that to them.

We have really wrestled with this decision and decided that we would rather our family listen to one good teaching from a pastor like John McArthur or RC than 20 from ones that just tickle ears, even if it is just on TV.

One of these days I do hope to find a church at a reasonable distance, that is reformed. That is my goal. I have even prayed about it.

 

[heymikey80]

Some things I think are interesting regarding this in Scripture.

Paul talks about "when you come together as a church" in 1 Cor 14. That says simply assembling together is not "as a church". There are purposes for church assembly: the regular worship of the God of the Universe, the preaching and hearing of the Word and of the Gospel which all should be thirsty for, the communion of the sacraments, and the encouragement and giving among the saints, the members of the church.

Greek "ekklesias" ("churches") were also called for specific purposes even before this word was used in Christianity. The Athens "assembly" was the political body that ruled the city.


John writes letters to "the church which is in [a city]", interestingly in the singular, and one per city.

When Paul brings together the elders at Ephesus, he doesn't call it a church. Yet when he preaches and forms assemblies of the whole group of Christians in an area, he calls them a church.

As far as I know Paul doesn't address any church in a city by the word, "churches". If any meeting of Christians constitutes a church, you would think his use of the word would be different.

Finally, the definition of church in the western world changed late in the Enlightenment and Modern era from John Locke's "A Letter Concerning Toleration". I'm sure the ancient definition of the church wasn't this -- else Locke would be preaching to the choir.

 

[Nadiine]

Nadiine

Sorry if my post came off too strong. I thought because of the post I did just before, that you were directing it at me. I am just so frustrated with this whole finding a church thing.

I dont want to gossip about people but this is the kind of things I run into. One day a few months back I was out visiting and I am sitting at someone kitchen table with 3 christians from that local church I mentioned. One of them was a church leader, a decon (sorry if thats spelled wrong).

They told me that the said church had gotten a new pastor and he was really good, that the church had changed from how it used to be. I thought to myself, wow, maybe I will go.

As the conversation went on, one of the church members was talking about some things, and was cussing like a sailor, breaking one of the 10 commandments, I dont want to mention the word they used.

Then they told me how they had gone on vacation together. I thought oh thats nice, at least until they told me they went to another state to go gambling.

My problem with this is if my kids were present during that conversation they would think that it was OK to be a Christian and to take the Lords name in vain, secondly, its ok to go gambling. I am not saying people cant sin, no one is perfect, but even I, being new, know better than to do things like that. It makes me question what are they really learning at that church. If they have went to church for years and still show no change in their ways, I have to wonder about it. The part that really bothered me was the boldness of it all. They acted like it was normal.

Its really frustrating. I dont want to go to just any church. I fear that they will teach my kids something that is wrong by either teachings, or their actions, and then I will have to explain that to them.

We have really wrestled with this decision and decided that we would rather our family listen to one good teaching from a pastor like John McArthur or RC than 20 from ones that just tickle ears, even if it is just on TV.

One of these days I do hope to find a church at a reasonable distance, that is reformed. That is my goal. I have even prayed about it.

My personal opinion is that overall Christianity in the USA IS IN SOME TROUBLE!.
Whether its in the area of spiritual apathy, pride or sin (or all the above).

There are also troubles at my current church where we just left (won't get into details on it). There are problems springing up everywhere.
I think Hank Hannegraaf had it right in his book title: "Christianity in Crisis".

My main gripe is just what you mention, the EXAMPLE we (they) are showing the world. Is it any wonder why the unsaved aren't seeking US for marital help when the Christian divorce rate meets or exceeds the theirs?
DO WE HAVE THE ANSWERS for them when we're in the same sinking ship??
(not including our thriving Christians!).

The answer to me is simple, WE AREN'T OBEYING GOD. Many today are seeking to please the world rather than the Lord. Trying so hard to fit in with the world, that the world can't see any difference in them.
Why CHANGE when we all act & sound the same?

So much I could blather on about but I'll spare you. LOL

One thing I DO know, there ARE plenty of wonderful, serious, genuine Christians out there and wonderful, Godly churches that are full of the Spirit.
I pray you're able to find one nearby, I know the Lord will work that out as you seek Him.

thanks for your post

 

[mlqurgw]

Nadiine

Sorry if my post came off too strong. I thought because of the post I did just before, that you were directing it at me. I am just so frustrated with this whole finding a church thing.

I dont want to gossip about people but this is the kind of things I run into. One day a few months back I was out visiting and I am sitting at someone kitchen table with 3 christians from that local church I mentioned. One of them was a church leader, a decon (sorry if thats spelled wrong).

They told me that the said church had gotten a new pastor and he was really good, that the church had changed from how it used to be. I thought to myself, wow, maybe I will go.

As the conversation went on, one of the church members was talking about some things, and was cussing like a sailor, breaking one of the 10 commandments, I dont want to mention the word they used.

Then they told me how they had gone on vacation together. I thought oh thats nice, at least until they told me they went to another state to go gambling.

My problem with this is if my kids were present during that conversation they would think that it was OK to be a Christian and to take the Lords name in vain, secondly, its ok to go gambling. I am not saying people cant sin, no one is perfect, but even I, being new, know better than to do things like that. It makes me question what are they really learning at that church. If they have went to church for years and still show no change in their ways, I have to wonder about it. The part that really bothered me was the boldness of it all. They acted like it was normal.

Its really frustrating. I dont want to go to just any church. I fear that they will teach my kids something that is wrong by either teachings, or their actions, and then I will have to explain that to them.

We have really wrestled with this decision and decided that we would rather our family listen to one good teaching from a pastor like John McArthur or RC than 20 from ones that just tickle ears, even if it is just on TV.

One of these days I do hope to find a church at a reasonable distance, that is reformed. That is my goal. I have even prayed about it.

What area of the country are you in? Perhaps someone can recommend a church.

 

[nightisfarspent]

It is indeed an act of submission. That is a huge issue. Do I submit to a wolf? Do I submit to someone that I believe not to be a Christian yet holds a pulpit? Do I submit to a false prophet? Do I drink poison?

If there is a faithful minister of the Gospel and if there is a Christian man called of God in the pulpit, then, yes, I believe you should go to church.

Leaving the church seems to be a hot topic nowadays. For most pastors, it seems to me the concern is a loss of revenue.

 

[kimlva]

Nadiine

Sorry if my post came off too strong. I thought because of the post I did just before, that you were directing it at me. I am just so frustrated with this whole finding a church thing.

I dont want to gossip about people but this is the kind of things I run into. One day a few months back I was out visiting and I am sitting at someone kitchen table with 3 christians from that local church I mentioned. One of them was a church leader, a decon (sorry if thats spelled wrong).

They told me that the said church had gotten a new pastor and he was really good, that the church had changed from how it used to be. I thought to myself, wow, maybe I will go.

As the conversation went on, one of the church members was talking about some things, and was cussing like a sailor, breaking one of the 10 commandments, I dont want to mention the word they used.

Then they told me how they had gone on vacation together. I thought oh thats nice, at least until they told me they went to another state to go gambling.

My problem with this is if my kids were present during that conversation they would think that it was OK to be a Christian and to take the Lords name in vain, secondly, its ok to go gambling. I am not saying people cant sin, no one is perfect, but even I, being new, know better than to do things like that. It makes me question what are they really learning at that church. If they have went to church for years and still show no change in their ways, I have to wonder about it. The part that really bothered me was the boldness of it all. They acted like it was normal.

Its really frustrating. I dont want to go to just any church. I fear that they will teach my kids something that is wrong by either teachings, or their actions, and then I will have to explain that to them.

We have really wrestled with this decision and decided that we would rather our family listen to one good teaching from a pastor like John McArthur or RC than 20 from ones that just tickle ears, even if it is just on TV.

One of these days I do hope to find a church at a reasonable distance, that is reformed. That is my goal. I have even prayed about it.

Hi anewinhim. I am new here too.
I'd just like to say that I understand exactly how you feel. We live in a town with quite literally a church on every corner, and not a single one preaches the truth. We currently drive an hour to go to a church that we pretty much agree with, but there is just no way to have true fellowship when you live that far away.

I would love more than anything to be able to find a church where the Bible is preached, and that I could be a real part of. We have attended several local churches, and at every one, we'd have to go home and "unteach" our children what had been taught there.

I absolutely agree that we are to be a part of the body, and not do the "just me and God" thing. But what do those of us do when there are no churches near us where the Bible is actually preached?