defending your views

[Dave Ellis]

It does seem old fashioned is unfashionable these days,doesn't it?

I get asked my opinion on gay marriage and when I say I don't agree I get labeled a hater. Heck, on another forum I was labeled a hater of homosexuals because I was Christian!! ( yikes! ) I had not said a word!!! Does anbody remember that Christians believe in loving our neighbor as ourselves?

Granted,we don't always show that love but we certainly don't hate! Darn the Westboro Baptist church!!
I guess it's what some people interprit as hate. Kind of the " if you're not for me you're against me" kind of understanding.
For clarification : I don't agree with same sex marriage but I don't believe in getting into others bedrooms either. However, I don't think churches that disagree with same sex marriage should be forced to perform the ceremony. On this matter I am very much for keeping the ceremony civil. It's a tough issue in this respect. I'm not in favor of same sex marriage in churches that disagree with it. There are certain churches that welcome same sex ceremonies and they should be kept there. Same goes for officiating.

I want to make it clear that I'm not calling you personally intolerant or hateful towards homosexuals...

However, the Bible is the holy book of the religion you follow, and is has passages in it like:

Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Among many others.

Now, like many Christians, I imagine you don't believe in these particular passages, and I applaud you for that. However, if you choose to label yourself Christian, these are the tenets of Christianity and you must be prepared to deal with the baggage they come with.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Do you ever find that if you try to defend your views against liberals they jump on you, complaining that you are intolerant, while they themselves are totally intolerant of your views?

It depends what your views are... tolerating intolerance is not a virtue. If you hold an intolerant position, you should be called out on it. However, if you have a reasonably tolerant position, you may be in the right.

That being said... opening up your post by stereotyping liberals as intolerant isn't really helping your case...

Someone asked my opinion on gay marriage and I said that I didn't agree with it, as it lessens the seriousness of marriage and isn't good for society. Of course everyone jumped down my throat and had a huge go at me and ridiculed me, calling me intolerant, juvenile and an idiot.

Well, based on your response, I would put you in the intolerant category. Here's why:

1) How does two people who with to commit to each other for the rest of their lives lessen the seriousness of marriage?

2) How is it not good for society? Gay couples have lived together for decades, how does it affect your life or society in general in a negative way if they are married? What is the demonstrable harm?

If you can't address those points, then you do not have an opinion based on valid reasoning... it's an opinion based on prejudice and bigotry. That's why it's intolerant.

 

[flicka]

"liberals"? How about "people who don't think like me"? I'm sure you have a much wider audience than you think.

Some beliefs are so illogical they can't be tolerated. That's just how it goes. Now you may actually see that as a sign that your are right, using some twisted logic, but no. The sad part is you can "believe" whatever you want, it's the "imposing my beliefs on others via laws when they have no interest in what I believe" that gets you into trouble. Our human laws and rules and regulations aren't made to align everyone with a particular religious belief, they are made to help society function the best way possible for everyone.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Someone asked my opinion on gay marriage and I said that I didn't agree with it, as it lessens the seriousness of marriage and isn't good for society. Of course everyone jumped down my throat and had a huge go at me and ridiculed me, calling me intolerant, juvenile and an idiot.

If that's the best response they can come up with, then you clearly won the debate (if you can even call it that) hands down.

 

[Dave Ellis]

If that's the best response they can come up with, then you clearly won the debate (if you can even call it that) hands down.

Just because someone launches insults at people does not mean they've lost the debate. They could be making a valid observation about that person's position.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Just because someone launches insults at people does not mean they've lost the debate.

Provided that's not all they do.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Provided that's not all they do.

Even then, if they're talking with someone who's points they have clearly refuted, but refuses to concede the argument.... if they say a few things out of frustration, I'd still call them the debate winners.

Granted, when someone resorts to ad hominems after their arguments have been refuted, I would say has lost the debate.... however, that's because their points have been refuted. The insults are really irrelevant to the point of the debate.

 

[Paradoxum]

This is the best laid out I have ever heard this argument. well done

Thanks!

 

[Jade Margery]

Being intolerant of intolerance isn't intolerant any more than restricting the freedom to own slaves in anti-freedom. Protection of the fundamental principle is necessary for the principle to be foundational.

Well said. I would add that there is a very great difference between being intolerant towards a person's views and ideas, and being intolerant towards people themselves. When you want people to be treated inferior to others by the law due to an arbitrary characteristic such as gender, religion, sexuality, or race, you fall into the latter category.

 

[Ken-1122]

Do you ever find that if you try to defend your views against liberals they jump on you, complaining that you are intolerant, while they themselves are totally intolerant of your views?

Someone asked my opinion on gay marriage and I said that I didn't agree with it, as it lessens the seriousness of marriage and isn't good for society. Of course everyone jumped down my throat and had a huge go at me and ridiculed me, calling me intolerant, juvenile and an idiot.

Does anyone else feel wary of sharing their unfashionable views?

I've noticed some of the most intolorant people are those who demand tolorance for their POV

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Being intolerant of intolerance isn't intolerant any more than restricting the freedom to own slaves in anti-freedom. Protection of the fundamental principle is necessary for the principle to be foundational.

The problem I've notice with people with this POV is they usually take it upon themselves to define which views are intolorant and which ones are tolorant; and it always seems that their opinions are tolorant and anyone who disagrees with them are simply being intolorant; as if nobody else is entitled to have a different point of view.
Tolorant simply means to be able to put up with something that is bothering you, it does not mean to have a specific political point of view.

Ken

 

[Paradoxum]

Well said. I would add that there is a very great difference between being intolerant towards a person's views and ideas, and being intolerant towards people themselves. When you want people to be treated inferior to others by the law due to an arbitrary characteristic such as gender, religion, sexuality, or race, you fall into the latter category.

That's true.

The problem I've notice with people with this POV is they usually take it upon themselves to define which views are intolorant and which ones are tolorant; and it always seems that their opinions are tolorant and anyone who disagrees with them are simply being intolorant; as if nobody else is entitled to have a different point of view.
Tolorant simply means to be able to put up with something that is bothering you, it does not mean to have a specific political point of view.

Ken

Well I don't mind if people simply disagree, but strangely I do have a problem with people trying to oppress personal liberty through law. The views which are intolerant are ones which try to control peoples personal lives by force. If someone wants to change my mind on something because I am being intolerant of some practice, then prove it doesn't harm anyone outside of those who consent to it.

Of course if you are being intolerant it could be that you just don't have all the facts to make the right decision. We all need to try and reason what is liberty, but just saying "This is immoral, therefore it should be illegal" is always intolerance.

But I am sorry if I am trying to give freedom to everyone, not just Christian, Muslim, or atheist; black, or white.

 

[Ken-1122]

That's true.



Well I don't mind if people simply disagree, but strangely I do have a problem with people trying to oppress personal liberty through law. The views which are intolerant are ones which try to control peoples personal lives by force. If someone wants to change my mind on something because I am being intolerant of some practice, then prove it doesn't harm anyone outside of those who consent to it.

But I am sorry if I am trying to give freedom to everyone, not just Christian, Muslim, or atheist; black, or white. I'm sorry I don't believe in masters and slaves, or those who advocate on behalf of enslavers or torturers.

Nobody is asking you to apologize for your beliefs, I'm just pointing out how many people like to throw the "intolorant" label around when they often are being intolorant themselves. I mean let's face it; if the issue does not bother you, you aren't being tolorant! The only way you can be tolorant is if you are bothered by the issue but you tolorate an opposing point of view.

K

 

[Paradoxum]

Nobody is asking you to apologize for your beliefs, I'm just pointing out how many people like to throw the "intolorant" label around when they often are being intolorant themselves.

Do you think I am being intolerant, or you just think some people say that and are?

I mean let's face it; if the issue does not bother you, you aren't being tolorant! The only way you can be tolorant is if you are bothered by the issue but you tolorate an opposing point of view.

K

I think you're right, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with this.

 

[bricklayer]

Do you ever find that if you try to defend your views against liberals they jump on you, complaining that you are intolerant, while they themselves are totally intolerant of your views?

Someone asked my opinion on gay marriage and I said that I didn't agree with it, as it lessens the seriousness of marriage and isn't good for society. Of course everyone jumped down my throat and had a huge go at me and ridiculed me, calling me intolerant, juvenile and an idiot.

Does anyone else feel wary of sharing their unfashionable views?

Some people can only agree or disagree with people.
You and I agree or disagree with ideas.

Those who can only agree or disagree with people are likely to confuse the force of an idea with the idea of force.

 

[VictoriasImage77]

I feel that Liberals can be extremely intolerant in the US at times..which is interesting considering their promotion of acceptance of everyone. However I also feel that US conservatives can be the very same way.

 

[Tomk80]

Well, based on your response, I would put you in the intolerant category. Here's why:

1) How does two people who with to commit to each other for the rest of their lives lessen the seriousness of marriage?

2) How is it not good for society? Gay couples have lived together for decades, how does it affect your life or society in general in a negative way if they are married? What is the demonstrable harm?

If you can't address those points, then you do not have an opinion based on valid reasoning... it's an opinion based on prejudice and bigotry. That's why it's intolerant.

I actually think that your statement here is way to mild. Making the statement that gay marriage lessens the seriousness of marriage is so incredibly vile and utterly lacking in compassion, that in my honest opinion the reponse that Storminside deserved was a fist in his face. That he only got ridiculed, being called intolerant and an idiot is a testament to the patience and virtue of his friends.

I have debated the issue of gay marriage before, and while I may disagree with my opponents and while it may take me some effort to understand, I actually see the points some of the people make and that those points are still made from a standpoint of knowledge and compassion. Storminside's response is not in that category, and thus does not deserve a rational response.

 

[Gadarene]

I actually think that your statement here is way to mild. Making the statement that gay marriage lessens the seriousness of marriage is so incredibly vile and utterly lacking in compassion, that in my honest opinion the reponse that Storminside deserved was a fist in his face. That he only got ridiculed, being called intolerant and an idiot is a testament to the patience and virtue of his friends.

I have debated the issue of gay marriage before, and while I may disagree with my opponents and while it may take me some effort to understand, I actually see the points some of the people make and that those points are still made from a standpoint of knowledge and compassion. Storminside's response is not in that category, and thus does not deserve a rational response.

Do come on now. No-one deserves physical assault for holding an opinion and using words.

 

[Jade Margery]

I actually think that your statement here is way to mild. Making the statement that gay marriage lessens the seriousness of marriage is so incredibly vile and utterly lacking in compassion, that in my honest opinion the reponse that Storminside deserved was a fist in his face. That he only got ridiculed, being called intolerant and an idiot is a testament to the patience and virtue of his friends.

Dude, shush! How are we supposed to be able to act morally superior to them with you sayin' stuff like that??

 

[Paradoxum]

I feel that Liberals can be extremely intolerant in the US at times..which is interesting considering their promotion of acceptance of everyone. However I also feel that US conservatives can be the very same way.

Examples please of liberals?